http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/news/news.pl?y=2001&m=10&nid=22-159.db

It seems the Xbox has a tendancy to crash. But with a fancy new green screen of death! (gsod) The stability of Windows was one of the favorite arguments against MS' console early on. But no, they said, it runs a tiny kernal based on Windows 2000, Microsoft's stable platform, and there's no variation in hardware configuration to create incompatibilities. Oops. Looks like MS still can't produce a stable OS.

I don't think I've ever had a console crash on me. Overheat, maybe, or I had a laser assembly fail, but no crashes. And it's not like they can use beta software/hardware as an excuse. The system is shipping in several weeks. They've got to be manufacturing final hardware and duping final software now.

Can you say 'disaster'?

Brad Grenz

I thought Win2K was super-stable...

I dunno, this seems like an unsubstantiated, apocryphal story to me. One news site reports this and suddely the Xbox-- every Xbox-- has problems?

I'd go with "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one" theory on this. My N64 used to overheat when it was on the carpet, and lock up.

I'm surprised Jason Cross hasn't made a guest appearance in this thread by now.

Anyone who says they've never had a console crash on the obviously doesn't know what a crash is.

A crash is (unbeknownst to most) a collission between one of more things that results, generally, in the halt of all activity between those objects.

Now, if you want to say that you've never had a console freeze on you, read blurry lines upon startup, not load a file, have frame-rate slowdown until the game refuses to respond, etc, then you can say it.

But I'd say you're bs'ing.

Or it could just be that you're not being specific enough to say you've never had a console crash 'windows-style' on you. =)

Uh-huh, I've seen that photo of the GSOD and if you look in the upper-left hand corner it says very clearly "XDK". That screen shot is from the X-Box Developer's Kit, meaning it wasn't from a store kiosk, but rather a developer's crash screen.

I am wondering a bit about all the kiosk failures that *appear* to be happening everywhere. If the Toys r Us kiosk in the article is typical of all of them then I'll bet the damned unit is overheating. With all the super-fast hardware in the X-Box I'll bet that it needs a lot of ventilation to keep from toasting the circuits.

Can't wait to get one. :)

-Biyobi

>"I thought Win2K was super-stable... "

Stable is a reletive term. Stable for a Windos OS, yes. Not as stable as some others, though.

>"A crash is (unbeknownst to most) a collission between one of more things that results, generally, in the halt of all activity between those objects."

You do know the common usage of the word in computer terms, do you not? Some sort of software and/or hardware failure that kills an application and/or the OS.

But no, I have never experienced the kind of failures you've listed.

>"I dunno, this seems like an unsubstantiated, apocryphal story to me. One news site reports this and suddely the Xbox-- every Xbox-- has problems?

I'd go with "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one" theory on this. My N64 used to overheat when it was on the carpet, and lock up."

There's been lots of reports of non-functional in store kiosks. The first new story I saw listed like 7 different places claiming to have problems. I don't think this is just a rumor out of control.

And if it is overheating, well either the Xbox runs way too hot for a console, or whoever designed the kiosks was a jack-ass. You're designing something specifically to house an Xbox, but you don't give it the ventelation you should know it needs?

The interesting thing is that there seems to be a wide variety of problems being described. slow loading menus, failure to load game, games freezing, units failing to boot at all.

>"Uh-huh, I've seen that photo of the GSOD and if you look in the upper-left hand corner it says very clearly "XDK". That screen shot is from the X-Box Developer's Kit, meaning it wasn't from a store kiosk, but rather a developer's crash screen."

Yeah, that's what I'm refering to. But I betcha the Xbox itself has a similar screen. MS shipping a product without a screen of death? Impossible!

Brad Grenz

I wouldn't doubt that some of the store displays are having some problems. They're sealed up where it must get pretty hot, and they're running this custom demo app that just plays a little Munch's demo and a set of videos. I don't think this app has gone through a super rigorous testing procedure.

It's hard to say if it's a hardware failure, instability in the OS, or instability in the application. Given how little of the OS there is TO crash or become unstable, I would guess the latter. But I wouldn't rule out a hardware meltdown.

With a few thousand store kiosks out there, I wouldn't be surprised at all if 100 or so had problems running the rushed-out demo. I'd be a little more surprised if they failed with actual finalized games when they start running those.

Remember when there were all those reports of faulty PS2s when it was released, and everyone made it sound like one in four were totally defective? Remember when one print run of a Dreamcast launch title was screwed up (what game was that again? I forget) and people starting bitching that the systems were defective?

There's no good way to know until they've been on sale for a couple weeks. Then, if more than 1-2% are screwed up, there's a SERIOUS problem.

I've never had my Dreamcast crash, and if you look at the case, it notes that it is a WindowsCE device. That leads me to believe it is not an OS problem. I'm leaning toward heat as the reason, because the kiosk I saw at Target looked sealed up tight. There was a plexiglas door covering the Xbox completely, and it was lit on the interior. The kiosk actually held three monitors, a PS2, an N64 (placeholder for Gamecube), and an Xbox. I'll get one of those as a heater replacement for my house.

There were very few games that actually used Win CE as the OS. Most games used Sega's custom, low-level operating system because CE sucked so badly.

There's something fishy going on. At my workplace, one of our projects is for the Xbox, and the debug units are on pretty much all of the time, running the game under development, and I've never seen a hardware failure. What's more, these are usually left on overnight with no problems -- I see them still on when I leave at night, and every now and then I have been known to spend some time playing before I leave. :)

This leads me to believe that there's an issue with the kiosk enclosures, or something like that -- the debug units are basically identical to the real Xboxes, and we haven't had any problems with ours, so it seems less likely to me that it's the boxes themselves.

Guess we'll find out for sure in a few weeks, though.

"I wouldn't doubt that some of the store displays are having some problems. "

Really, when was the last time you went into a Wal-Mart or Best Buy and all of the display machine types were working? I can't think of any.

It could be a heat problem, or it could be a faulty run of Xboxes. These are the production models so those that have debug units really don't have the same exact thing. Playstation 1 had problems at release with overheating and the infamous "flip-it-over" bug. They also had a lot of problems with controller ports going *POP* when inserting a controller with the power on.

It's likely that there will be some faulty units. If heat is an issue, there are likely to be some people with broken Xboxes over time too since many entertainment centers (and those that run these things on the carpet) aren't well-ventilated. It's the risk you take buying brand new hardware in its first run. When there were few moving parts (Genesis, Super Nintendo, cart systems in general), it was a lot harder to screw things up. You didn't need fans for cooling or well-ventilated spaces to run a console. Things have changed quite a bit since then.

Consider this...the Xbox is essentially a PC in many ways. PCs today are cooled by as many as four fans even in standard configurations (motherboard controllers, video card, processor, power supply and case fan are most common). How many does the Xbox have? If it is missing any of these fans that turn out to be crucial to cooling operation, you will see broken systems in time.

Those with debug units...how hot does the casing get on the system after a few hours of play? Dreamcast pumps a lot of heat out of its single fan slot and it still gets warm.

--Dave

"Remember when there were all those reports of faulty PS2s when it was released, and everyone made it sound like one in four were totally defective? Remember when one print run of a Dreamcast launch title was screwed up (what game was that again? I forget) and people starting bitching that the systems were defective?"

Good point. I had forgotten about those, but I rememer 'em now that you mention it.

"Consider this...the Xbox is essentially a PC in many ways. PCs today are cooled by as many as four fans even in standard configurations (motherboard controllers, video card, processor, power supply and case fan are most common). How many does the Xbox have? If it is missing any of these fans that turn out to be crucial to cooling operation, you will see broken systems in time."

Yeah, but even the PS2 has a fan.. mine does, anyway, and it's audible when it is on.

I've read via voodooextreme forums that it appears the source of the problem is Munch's Odyessey demo.

"There's something fishy going on."

Apparently traces of weapons-grade anthrax were found inside one of the kiosks...
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*joke*

"Apparently traces of weapons-grade anthrax were found inside one of the kiosks...
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*joke*"

Hilarious dickhead, keep 'em coming...

Fuck off, prick, I don't insult people behind an "anonymous" tag...

NB: That's a different anonymous person than me, the anonymous guy with the Xbox kits at work. :P

Re: temperature of Xboxes -- I don't recall them being warmer than my Dreamcast, which is the only other point of comparison I have handy. I can check again to make sure...

Oh, and the anthrax thing was a pretty poor joke, BTW...

>Fuck off, prick, I don't insult people behind an "anonymous" tag...

What do you call "fuck off, prick?"

He meant "I don't insult people when I am hiding behind an anonymous tag."

In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic (or kill it. Hey, it's what I'm good at!) let me throw this into the mix. Are they back pedaling, or just clarifying their position?

Woo! Another dead thread! I rule!

'Microsoft has not confirmed if in-store Xbox units are finalized hardware. The FiXbox story never stated that the in-store Xbox units were finalized hardware.'

Hmm.

I kind of like how the followup article tries to claim that they're not bashing MS ("we're just reporting the news" etc.), what with the original article calling it the 'FiXbox'.

Another case of that wonderful thing called internet journalism...


'Am not a fanboy!'

'Am too!'

It's no more sensationalistic than your average newspaper headline. It's just funnier. (excluding, of course, those delectable headlines on the Tonight Show) It's kinda sad that a website has to post an update to reassurt their impartiality just for posting some negative news. Xbox fanboys may not like it, but a large number of reports of Xbox systems in store displays not funtioning properly IS newsworthy. (and I find the fact that there have been Xbox fanboys for 18 months disturbing, given the fact that the system hasn't shipped yet)

>"Microsoft has not confirmed if in-store Xbox units are finalized hardware. The FiXbox story never stated that the in-store Xbox units were finalized hardware."

And we've never heard that they AREN'T finished hardware for that matter. And if they aren't finished hardware, that's disturbing in of itself.

'And if they aren't finished hardware, that's disturbing in of itself.'

How so? It just means the kiosks were released before the hardware was finalized.

The Obviously Bad Thing here is that since MS has no PR downside to confirming that the kiosks aren't final hardware, if they refuse to say whether they are or not they're almost certainly final.

It's no more sensationalistic than your average newspaper headline. It's just funnier.

I would disagree -- it sounds more like a tabloid headline, implying that there's a "fix" (i.e. ruse or scheme) behind the Xbox. News, if there is any to report, should stick to facts and not speculation, and the headlines should reflect that as well.

It makes it sound like the Xbox needs fixing. You read the ruse in yourself.

>"How so? It just means the kiosks were released before the hardware was finalized."

When the kiosks hit there was only like a month to launch. If you've only got 30 days before you go live and you've yet to start producing final hardware, that is a huge problem. That would mean the hardware wasn't even finished before the launch games went gold.

Brad Grenz

'That would mean the hardware wasn't even finished before the launch games went gold.'

Like every other game system ever released? I don't see what the big deal is.

The hardware for most consoles is finalized and in production 4-6 months before launch. MS has been playing these games where their specs were completely fluid. PC developers may be used to aiming for a moving target, but that's not the way to win over the console guys. How the hell do you do QA on a game if you don't have finished, production systems to test on?

But to make things clear, I don't think this is actually the case. I don't think the Kiosks all have preproduction units in them. I think they're final units fresh from the factory. But in that case it's kinda late to be finding out about a problem with the final hardware, if that is indeed what the kiosk problems demonstrate.

Brad Grenz

The hardware specs for recent consoles have all been subject to change. There's a great article in the most recent Game Developer talking about how the screens on the production Gameboy Advance were considerably darker than the developer units (and how, on three days' notice before having to go gold, one developer had to readjust all their art for their launch title).

That being said, the Xbox's hardware has been finalized for quite some time -- the last XDKs are basically identical to the shipping Xbox (except for color :) ).

One thing I've seen mentioned as a possible cause is that the demo software has bugs in it, which is entirely possible -- after all, it's the only "real" Xbox software the public has seen so far. None of the people who have done lengthy hands-on previews have mentioned crashing or other problems, so I'm inclined to give this explanation some credit.

To add some new information into this whole mix, here's a forum post stating that these problems were caused by a software issue (by someone who probably knows better than you or I). Saw this over at Evil Avatar...

http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=74332

The "old libraries in the demo software" excuse doesn't explain why the Xbox kiosks were acting so weird without a disc loaded. You can't blame software that isn't running for the problems with the system menus loading really slowly and the sound dropping out. Bungie's explanation sounds like a weak attempt at damage control.

Brad Grenz

You're just determined to hate the Xbox, aren't you?

Oh well, consider this thread over, then.

No worries. All we have to do is wait for the launch and see what happens. As Jason pointed out, there is historical precident for launch oddities with the Japanese PS2 and the US Dreamcast.

I'd like to add-- GO USA! USA CONSOLE #1!! DOWN WITH TERRORISTS!

It wouldn't bother so much if Microsoft hadn't lied so much about the system.

---

Quote:

You're just determined to hate the Xbox, aren't you?

---

"You're just determined to hate the Xbox, aren't you?"

-> And so what if he is? That doesn't invalidate his opinion ...

Um, of course it does Dave -- at least on matters related to the XBox. If he's going to hate the XBox NO MATTER WHAT ... even if, say, it was announced that the exclusive sequel to GTA3 was coming out for XBox with 400 new missions and GT3 built-in as a "mini game" and a special handheld version of Civ 3 included as a bonus, plus free sex with jenny mccarthy -- if he would STILL hate xbox, why would anyone care what he has to say about it? Or bother to listen?

He's just proving that not everyone is going to be predisposed to love this system (or any other for that matter) based on hype. There's a legitimate issue with the Xbox demo discs/kiosks and Brad's still skepitcal. So am I. We're just as viable a customer as the Xbox fanboi.

Bottom line is that he's got an opinion and this is a free message board. He can say what he likes and from his perspective, there's still reason for skepticism. That's perfectly fine.

--Dave

-> He's just proving that not everyone is going to be predisposed to love this system (or any other for that matter) based on hype.

No, he's just proving that some people ARE going to be predisposed to HATE a system. Brad isn't skeptical; Brad hates the XBox.

And nobody ever said a) that either of you are not "viable" as customers (whatever that means) and b) that he ought not to be allowed to say it. Please don't drag out your free message board crap when you can't think of anything else to say.

By the way, it should be noted that Brad has not explicitly stated that he hates the XBox. Dave Long has just taken Anonymous's accusation of Brad hating it and then gone on to make other pointless statements about it.

I am what you'd call thoroughly skeptical about any PR we hear from MS, or anyone who's support has been bought, about the Xbox. They have been consistantly dishonest, misleading and generally disengenuous about the whole affair. I might have been able to get excited about the Xbox if it was truely capable of what MS claims and if it wasn't just another part of a wider agenda to ensure every server, client and developer's computer has to run MS software. The Xbox is very much like Internet Explorer in that it is less about making money in a particular market than it is about forcing a competitor out of that market in order to make more money in a different area. (I.E.: MS didn't want to make money on IE, they wanted to promote web standards that required MS servers. In the case of the Xbox the goal is to promote DirectX to developers, making it literally indespensible, AND to make sure that if people start using their TVs as internet portals that it not be through MS-free Sony systems).

So, do I hate the Xbox? Not exactly, I'm just a detractor who has ample justification for my position. But if given enough reason and a few price drops I may end up buying one. I was critical of the Dreamcast once upon a time. I felt that the hardware was too weak to compete with the other next generation systems, which was true, but I still bought one. It's sitting right next to me on my desk. I don't harbor an irrational hatred for the Xbox, rather I have very legitimate criticisms. I mean, you guys don't really think old libraries used to create the demo disk explains the problems described with the system menus, do you?

Brad Grenz

"I felt that the hardware was too weak to compete with the other next generation systems, which was true, but I still bought one."

How so? Considering that most people think DOA2 looks *better* on the Dreamcast than it does on the PS2. Generally speaking, PS2 games don't look all that great. (insert standard rant about low-resolution, grainy graphics) Sure, the polygon counts are reasonably high, but textures aren't too detailed, either.

Dreamcast was a remarkably well-engineered system, whereas the PS2 is the Sega Saturn of its era.

' I might have been able to get excited about the Xbox if it was truely capable of what MS claims and if it wasn't just another part of a wider agenda to ensure every server, client and developer's computer has to run MS software. The Xbox is very much like Internet Explorer in that it is less about making money in a particular market than it is about forcing a competitor out of that market in order to make more money in a different area. (I.E.: MS didn't want to make money on IE, they wanted to promote web standards that required MS servers.'

Yeah, they're been doing really well with that strategy:

http://www.netcraft.com/survey/

25% of the server market, whoo hoo! It's interesting that they haven't really gained any share since 1998.

What IE-specific server standards are you talking about? ASP will display in any web browser, as will ISAPI. ActiveX was MS's first attempt to Take Over The Internet, but that didn't work out all too well. Dot-Net is up next, and we'll see how that turns out.

'In the case of the Xbox the goal is to promote DirectX to developers, making it literally indespensible, AND to make sure that if people start using their TVs as internet portals that it not be through MS-free Sony systems).'

This is also a macroeconomic issue that your personal advocacy and purchasing will have zero influence on. I mean, I'm as worried as anyone about MS Taking Over The Goddamn World, but my purchasing decisions have no influence on it, so I don't worry about it overmuch.

I didn't say they were succeeding. But the plan is basically to make every computer out their dependant on MS software.

It's as simple as comparing NFL 2K2 on the PS2 and the Dreamcast. The PS2 version is clearly superior. And even if Sega could have kept pace with Sony they'd be dead as soon as the Xbox and Gamecubes hit. The gulf between the DC's capabilities and those two systems is just too great.

The problem has always been that in Sega's hurry to be first to the market they would settle on hardware that didn't have the legs to keep up. They had to slap a 2nd CPU in the Saturn at the last minute when they saw what the PSX would be capable of. With the DC they picked components that were a marked improvement over the PSX and N64, but which didn't really constitute a generational leap.

Brad Grenz

>Dreamcast was a remarkably well-engineered system, whereas the PS2 is the Sega Saturn of its era.

Dreamcast is the Atari 5200 of its generation. PS2 is already much more of a success than the Saturn -- it could easily dominate this generation, given the games currently being released, even with inferior technology. Best technology rarely (never?) wins the console market.

Stefan

Better is a relative and subjective term.

"Dreamcast is the Atari 5200 of its generation. PS2 is already much more of a success than the Saturn -- it could easily dominate this generation, given the games currently being released, even with inferior technology. Best technology rarely (never?) wins the console market."

Well, I agree, but it just sucks that PS2 graphics are so mediocre and low-resolution. Just got Tony Hawk 3, and it has the same issues as every other PS2 game I have.

The rumor (from ShugaShack) is that the GameCube version of THPS3 will be significantly better, graphically. Sigh. I wish THPS3 was being released on Xbox.

>In the case of the Xbox the goal is to promote DirectX to developers, making it literally indespensible, AND to make sure that if people start using their TVs as internet portals that it not be through MS-free Sony systems).

This conspiracy theory doesn't make much sense to me. Already 95% (or more) of the developers of PC games use DirectX, and no console developer cares about using it or not except to make an Xbox game. It's not like they can, or would, use it for competing consoles, so I don't see how Xbox is going to further DirectX penetration. And considering that MS doesn't license DirectX or charge for the SDK, why would they bother?

If they wanted people to start using their TVs as net portals, why didn't they add a web browser or email client, or have plans to do either one when the online system launches? It would be absolutely trivial. Why would they actively PREVENT 3rd party peripheral makers from making a keyboard or mouse? Why would they go out of their way to make sure their USB controller ports do NOT accept normal USB controller ports?

If you can ignore the Microsoft logo on the box for a moment, it's Sony that wants to turn their gaming box into the web portal and push movies and music and stuff at you.

And if you think for one moment that Microsoft doesn't want to make billions of dollars off Xbox, you're insane. It's a very long-term thing, but they're ABSOLUTELY in it for the money.

>I mean, you guys don't really think old libraries used to create the demo disk explains the problems described with the system menus, do you?

Yeah, I do. Remember, this is not a PC. The demo stuff was all stored on the hard disc, and everything runs at Ring 0. If someone played a video with the bad library and it corrupted the data in RAM, blocked off a memory address and didn't release it, started a memory leak, or whatever, it could foul up the system the whole rest of the time it was on. And the menu to select a demo/video used the video library to display footage over to the right of the demo list, so that could screw it up too.

It's still a major foulup, in that the demo software should have gone through the same certification process required for final games. But if they were in a rush to get demo units into stores, well... maybe a bad call.

>"This conspiracy theory doesn't make much sense to me. Already 95% (or more) of the developers of PC games use DirectX, and no console developer cares about using it or not except to make an Xbox game."

There are still an awful lot of people out there using OpenGL, and through their partnership with nVidia on the Xbox they get a great deal of control over the direction OGL takes.

>"If they wanted people to start using their TVs as net portals, why didn't they add a web browser or email client, or have plans to do either one when the online system launches? It would be absolutely trivial."

I didn't say they did. Right now they just want to make sure the PS2 doesn't go unchallenged. And when/if Sony gets their online strategy off the ground, Microsoft will have an answer.

>"The demo stuff was all stored on the hard disc"

It is? This is the first I've heard of it. I keep hearing about a demo disc, I've never heard the demos were on the hard drive.

'I didn't say they did. Right now they just want to make sure the PS2 doesn't go unchallenged. And when/if Sony gets their online strategy off the ground, Microsoft will have an answer.'

And if MS doesn't get to take over online access, Sony will? Every company wants to rule the world, hypothetically. I stick to worrying about bad things companies have actually done myself or are about to do in, oh, the next ten minutes; for example, MS still engages in all sort of restraint-of-trade licensing agreements. That doesn't make for as good of copy, though.

>"And if MS doesn't get to take over online access, Sony will?"

I don't know. But it was a threat. Look guys, I never said this was how things would play out. I'm not making predictions. I'm just talking about motives.

>There are still an awful lot of people out there using OpenGL

What, like 10 games a year? Out of 150-200? And virtually ALL of those use DirectX for audio and/or input. Including Quake-engine stuff.

>And when/if Sony gets their online strategy off the ground, Microsoft will have an answer.

The thing is, they already do, and it's called Windows on a PC (which Sony doesn't have). And MS doesn't lose money selling hardware for Windows machines like they do Xboxes. A smarter answer to Sony's net strategy for MS would be to promote the PC as the best net portal, not try to turn Xbox into one.

And let's say Sony's online strategy just takes off, and millions start surfing the 'net and writing email and stuff from their PS2s. Well then it's obviously something that people WANT, and if MS goes that route with the Xbox, kudos to them for providing features that people want in their platform.

>"What, like 10 games a year? Out of 150-200? And virtually ALL of those use DirectX for audio and/or input. Including Quake-engine stuff."

Well, we don't really need to count Barbie fashion designer or all the pure 2D games. But of the high-profile 3D games OpenGL is still being used.

>"The thing is, they already do, and it's called Windows on a PC (which Sony doesn't have)."

Christ. MS is already the only game in town (practically speaking) for PCs with net access. The problem comes when/if people start using consoles to browse the net. If the PS2 went reletively unchallenged this round and if Sony launches an online strategy that included web browsing and email, that's tens of millions of potential access points MS has no control over. That is a problem. It isn't about turning the Xbox into a netpliance, it's about challenging Sony in the market.

I'm growing weary of this discussion.

Unless Microsoft believes that Sony is chasing a market that doesn't exist. They have stated as much, and they have good reason to believe that people don't want to surf the web and send email on their television because they already tried that. It was called WebTV, and it bombed.

Web pages simply aren't designed to be viewed on a television screen (believe me--I've used my father-in-law's WebTV, and it's not a fun experience), and I'm betting that Microsoft is perfectly happy to let Sony dump money into that market unchallenged.

"Well, we don't really need to count Barbie fashion designer or all the pure 2D games. But of the high-profile 3D games OpenGL is still being used."

Actually, there are roughly 200 games that come out in a year NOT counting crap like Barbie Fashion Designer. Believe me, I know first-hand (hell, most of them are coming out in the next two months). And a good portion of the ones that ARE OpenGL are Quake-powered titles. If id decided to go with Direct3D for their next game, OpenGL would cease to be much of a factor.