So, the fall Tokyo Game Show should be starting right around now, since it's already Friday morning in Japan. I thought I'd start a thread for us to overanalyze every bit of news that comes out of there, like we normally do. =)

Personally, I'm hoping to see more of Sega's NEW games, rather than the straight ports they're moving to Gamecube/PS2 like SA2 and Phantasy Star Online.

Yeah, so far the only new thing from them is Space Channel Five 2 for the PS2. I'm expecting a lot more from them on the PS2 that just hasn't been announced. You've got Virtua Fighter 4, the latest Sakura Diaries game (which no one in the west cares about) and now SC5: 2. We've got a pretty full list of what they're doing on the Xbox, but most of that stuff is second tier. I'm expecting their marquee titles to be on the way for the PS2. Maybe a Shenmue 2 port... But some original stuff too.

Other than that, I'm eager to hear what the 3 new Square titles will be (and just as eager to see the spirits of the Xbox.IGN editors dashed when they aren't for that system). They've been talking a lot about not being so dependant on the Final Fantasy franchise. Whether that means high-profile PS2 sequels for Saga Frontier or Mana or Chrono franchises, or some new stuff like Vagarant Story or Einhander were for the PSX, I don't know. But I'm looking forward to hearing (and hopefully seeing in screenshots and shaky camcorder footage of a demo station on the floor).

I'd like to hear more about Xenosaga. The unofficial Xenogear prequel, which should kick some major console RPG ass.

I'm always interested in what Capcom, Konami and Namco are up to. I'd like a look at Enix's next generation projects too. That's all I can think of right now.

Oh yeah, and it's always funny to hear "big" Xbox announcement, mostly because MS is convinced they are such huge coups, when they usually aren't.

Brad Grenz

So here's something:

Sega has axed Shenmue II for the Dreamcast, and now it's an Xbox exclusive game to be published by Microsoft for fall of 2002. Or rather - the US version has been axed. The Japanese version of Shenmue II has already shipped (duh) and they will ship the European version early next year.

Both Shenmue II and Phantasy Star Online are apparently getting major enahncements for Xbox and will be sold, distributed, and marketed by Microsoft. But they WILL still sell under the Sega brand.

No word yet on what the enhancements are, just that Sega says they'll take full advantage of the system, and that Yu Suzuki and Yuji Naka are both heavily and directly invovled.

Oh, and PSO "will be available through Microsoft via a pack-in for Microsoft's online initiative for late spring/early summer onwards. It will also be available separately as a Sega of America published game," according to Sega PR Charles Bellfield.

http://dreamcast.ign.com/news/39017.html

IGN has first gameplay footage of the online Final Fantasy XI, which in this clip looks really amazingly underwhelming. But it doesn't seem like a very good clip.

http://ps2.ign.com/news/38985.html

That's a surprise. MS must've given Sega a deal they couldn't refuse. Anyone know what the sales numbers for Shenmue are? I know for a while it was the most expensive video game ever developed, but I don't think it was a blockbuster. Letting MS publish, distribute, promote and probably kick in some money for development would be a pretty attractive way to limit Sega's financial risk.

Brad Grenz

Well according to that interview, the problem was that the orders from retailers in the US on Shenmue II didn't even come CLOSE to covering costs. There just aren't enough Dreamcasts out there, I think, for such an expensive game.

So they went looking for a good partner to fix things.

Apparently the deal with MS is that Sega spends a whole year getting the game geared up to take advantage of the Xbox hardware, and MS will handle all the marketing and distribution. But they get exclusive North American rights to the game. What Sega gets out of it is that it's still sold as a Sega game and odds are there will be more Xboxes in homes by fall of next year than the 4 million Dreamcasts they managed to sell. Or so they hope.

I don't know how much money changed hands, if any, or how the money from the game's sales will be divided up. It seems like kind of a unique deal.

Same with Phantasy Star Online, though it's due out sooner and MS doesn't have exclusive rights.

Presumably this means the scene where the killer of Ryo's father turns out to be Bill Gates will be removed.

Damn!

I think there are plenty of Dreamcast owners out there, we just stopped buying games. And honestly, who can blame us with virtually everything released for the DC this year were half finished, sometimes buggy, and missing features left and right.

Well, the Sega branded games weren't half-finished and buggy, but the 3rd party ones aren't exactly setting the world on fire. I've been buying lots of DC games...but most of them have been out for awhile and I just couldn't afford to get them before.

I'm sure the sales of new games are down and rightfully so. When a system is being phased out, many retailers start lowering prices across the board on the stock they have. That means lots of bargain priced games that are more than worthy of purchase over a newer title. In the case of the DC, there are plenty of games at $19.99 or lower now that are undercutting the new games.

Some games are disappearing already, too. Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2 is commanding $50 or more used because there aren't many new ones left anywhere. I had a lot of trouble locating San Francisco Rush 2049 too. There are definitely going to be some gems that command high Ebay prices after the system is gone. It's very much like the Saturn in that respect. I shudder to think how much you'd have to pay for Samba de Amigo and a set of Sega-branded maracas in a year or two.

--Dave

\quote {Well, the Sega branded games weren't half-finished and buggy}

Oh you haven't experence the joy of Sega's Floigan Brothers. Also there was the wonderful 18 Wheeler American Pro Trucker.

I can see that the Dreamcast is going to be collectable. The Maracas are already hitting the $150 mark.

No, I haven't played Floigan Brothers. What's wrong with 18 Wheeler though? I haven't read anything about problems related to bugs there?

Those Maracas are so elusive too. I'm kicking myself a million times over for not buying them when I had the chance. Now I'm seriously considering the gouge to get a pair.

I found some copies of Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2 if you or anyone else is interested. Gamestop got a few new ones back in. I ordered on Friday and it was shipped as of Saturday. Rush 2049 I ordered from Games Universe and they has a number of good and some hard to find DC titles for excellent prices. Even though the system is going away, I'm going to have a good year's worth of games for great prices to fool around with. I just may wait on getting a Gamecube or whatever until next Christmas now.

--Dave

I wouldn't be surprised if DC games are eliminated from mass market retailers after the new systems launch. It might be that after Xmas you'll only find them in video game shops.

Nah, they'll just be relegated to bargain bin space. Maybe they'll even get cheaper...

Believe it or not, the Target store near me has eliminated all Dreamcast product from the store. I don't know if it's just this one store or all of them, though I suspect it was all of them. What's really nutty is they have huge posters for Xbox and Gamecube in place of it. Seems kinda dumb to be advertising something you don't have and likely won't get enough systems in to even move the games once they're both out.

What a screwed up industry.

--Dave

I was at Software Etc. today and they had an Xbox there. That was the first one I'd seen up close...

I asked the guy if he'd played it yet, and he said they'd just got it in, and his boss had the only key to the games in the display case, so he was waiting for his boss to bring the key so he could play...

Anyway, thought I'd share.

I saw this over on coremagazine.com and thought it was kinda funny. It's part of an interview with Ed Fries and Yutaka Haruki of Microsoft. The question being responded to is about the Xbox's large size.

"Haruki: Given the opportunity to redesign, I don't think Nintendo or Sony could build their consoles smaller than the Xbox with all the same features."

I'm assuming by features they mean a hard drive and ethernet port. Do these guys not realise that all the American PS2 units and the newer Japanese PS2s have an open bay in which the hard drive and ethernet/modem adapter will fit? Is this not irrefutable proof that Sony, at least, is quite capable of creating a unit much smaller than the Xbox with all its features.

And there's another question about the Xbox's 5.1 audio.

"Haruki: The Xbox features a custom audio processor which generates 5.1 channel compatible sound in realtime. Comparatively, 5.1 channel sound is only possible in movies on the PlayStation 2, and in actual games on the Xbox."

Actually EA has developed a way to create 5.1 digital audio in realtime on the PS2.

Brad Grenz

Okay, so either a.)He lied, or b.)He's been improperly informed. Is anyone really surprised?? :-)

Really, though, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to discount his first statement that you quoted. I can't rattle off features of either console -- so you may very well be right -- but there's a lotta stuff in the Xbox. And I saw it today -- it's not that huge. What, maybe 20% bigger than the Gamecube, and only slightly larger than the current N64, right? That's not so bad.

I still can't get over the price, though. Out of the current "big 3" console lineup, Gamecube would be my first pick, with Xbox in second, but it's SO expensive!!

"And I saw it today -- it's not that huge."

I saw a mock-up today and had the same reaction. After all of the talk about how huge the thing was, it seemed normal-sized to me. It is smaller than my VCR. I actually think my DC and the Gamecube seem tiny and flimsy, so maybe I'm the odd one here.

Don't get me wrong -- I dig the smallness of the Gamecube. It's probably smaller than any console I've seen before, but then, it's taller, so maybe not by as much as it would seem.

The Xbox, though, is smaller (length times width) than my N64, I'm almost certain, but it's close, and only half-again as tall, perhaps. Not as bad as you guys had implied.

Well, I've been trying to track dimensions of the Xbox, but I can't find them. I've got Gamecube (4.3" x 5.9" x 6.3") specs, but can't find those...Maybe later.

Uh...the Gamecube is only a little bit larger than the Xbox controller. It really is huge. Enormous even for a games console. It's going to eat a huge space no matter where you put it and the footprint is BIG. Have a look here... Xbox Debug Kit...same as shipping Xbox...and here's the shot showing the Gamecube next to the controller...Gamecube is tiny.

My biggest concern is the DVD drawer design. I hate those damn things. It's one of the problems with the PS2, also. Top loaders are ifinitely safer with little hands and feet around. They're also less susceptible to mechanical failure of any kind. The DC and the Gamecube are better designed in that respect.

However, that's the clear difference between the Xbox/PS2 and the Gamecube. Sony and Microsoft really don't want young children to play games on their console. They want to get the later teens and up. Their game lineups are clearly targeted there as is the look of each console.

--Dave

I still can't get over the price, though. Out of the current "big 3" console lineup, Gamecube would be my first pick, with Xbox in second, but it's SO expensive!!

No more expensive than a PS2 will be this holiday season. Yeah, with bundles the cost goes up fairly quick, but then, weren't you going to buy some games for your PS2?

Oh, come on. This whole "the Xbox is huge" thing kills me. Maybe it's going to be a problem for people living in a 5 cubic foot apartment, but in the Land of Reality it's on par with every other piece of hardware in my entertainment center. It's a few inches larger than my Dreamcast, and a lot smaller than either my Tivo or my DVD player. It's not like I'm going to have to throw out furniture to fit it into my house.

I mean, really. Does anyone actually care that much about the relative size of their game console?

-> I mean, really. Does anyone actually care that much about the relative size of their game console?<-

Are you saying size doesn't matter?

"No more expensive than a PS2 will be this holiday season."

I still expect Sony to cut the price of the PS2 at least $50. I just think they'll want to be under the Xbox's list price and closer to the Gamecube.

---

Quote:

I mean, really. Does anyone actually care that much about the relative size of their game console?

---

-> I honestly don't have the space for it in my entertainment center. It requires a shelf all its own because of its width and height. <-

Umm ... shouldn't game consoles be down on the rug with you? Who puts game systems in "entertainment centers" anyway?!!? The proper positions for my N64 are:

1. shoved behind the TV when not in use
2. dragged out to middle of floor when in use

Hopefully the Gamecube will fit shoved behind my TV too.

Xbox is too goddamn big to be moved around. I doubt anyone is going to want to be moving it constantly. Especially since those hard drive platters aren't likely to be made to be slammed around regularly.

Back to the kids thing again...I have to keep stuff like this locked up or it's often out on the floor when I come home/turn my head for two minutes. The boys have Dad's passion for games. :)

--Dave

Should console gamers really be expected to worry about "hard drive platters" ?!?!?

You keep your video game consoles locked up ... out of the reach of ... your kids ???

Adult supervision is needed. My son is perfectly capable of putting any game into the system (or the PC for that matter) including M rated ones. I prefer he play games suited to him and at a time when my wife and I choose. If I didn't enforce some kind of time management, he'd play from 7:30AM when he gets up until 9PM when he goes to bed.

There's a time and place for extended gaming periods and it's not something a 3-year-old can decide for himself.

--Dave

Good on you Dave.
I bought an entertainment center with a door for similar reasons. It guards against those problems (she can already pick a video) and the old peanut-butter-sandwich-in-the-VCR disaster.

My office is kept off limits. I think she thinks of it as Candyland. (Lots of games, tchotchkies, and other remnants of my youth.)

I have console size problems too. If kept behind the TV, the baby can do unspeakable damage. If too large it won't fit in the Entertainment Center. But I'm alright, I play/review console product on my Radeon TV IN/OUT card here in the office. My problem is going to be fitting the Xbox in here!

-Andrew

"Umm ... shouldn't game consoles be down on the rug with you? "

I remember placing my original playstation on the rug in front of the TV. It promptly overheated because it didn't have proper ventilation. Now, I keep all my systems in the entertainment center.

On Xbox: The thing really is pretty big. I did a quick comparison to the PS2 and the Xbox is about .5 inches longer, 2.5 inches deeper, and .5 inches higher... about like a VCR. But the really odd thing is how heavy it is (at least the debug unit, anyway). It feels like they packed it with a couple of bricks.

Well it is basically a PC in a smaller box isn't it ?

Pretty much.

I am lukewarm on the Xbox, but I'll tell you guys-- I got this E3 DVD demo disc from Lik-Sang when I ordered those gameboy advance screens. And I was *mightily* impressed with the Xbox game footage. Halo in particular. Sure, you've seen screenshots, maybe you've even seen some short 320x200 video clips. But seeing it run at full speed on your TV screen, full size.. it was impressive.

And y'know what sucks about GT3? The fact that the damn PS2 output is so low-res that the horizon is just a mish-mash of pixelated.. crap. Granted we should have the courses memorized anyway, but good luck picking left or right turns out at any distance. Sheesh.

It's a good point about GT3 and it's one thing about PS2 I don't particularly like. It renders stuff really jaggy. It's a major reason the Dreamcast looks so good next to a lot of PS2 games. They have very good and very "clean" rendering on the DC in 3D games.

It's cool that Sony built their own chips and all that. It's truly a proprietary design. But that cuts both ways. It's definitely harder to develop on and it has certain drawbacks visually because it's non-standard.

By comparison, the DC, Gamecube and of course the Xbox all have some kind of kinship with the PC. To the trained eye, they look more uh..."normal".

There's a movie of Sega GT on Xbox at Core. That looked good. However I'm not too keen on Gunvalkyrie now that I've seen more of it. It's obvious in their video footage that the guy playing it is struggling with the controller (3rd person shooter). That game is obviously in need of a mouse and keyboard.

I really think Xbox is the one to play wait and see on if you're only buying one console this year. The launch lineup pretty much stinks and the price is likely to be $100 or more less by next Holiday season. By then, the game support should be shaken out better. Shenmue 2 isn't until late 2002 now.

Oh, a good story about pre-orders. A friend overheard someone pre-ordering at EB. You MUST buy a package. But get this...the guy is building his pack and the drone says, you have to get a controller, memory card or the DVD remote. The kid doesn't really want any of this, but he's forced to. So he says "I'll take a controller". The drone says,"Sorry, we don't have any more controllers that will be available. You'll have to get the DVD remote or the memory card." WTF?! The worst thing...this guy pre-orders anyway and goes with the DVD remote. Jesus H. Christ! Just wait until after the Holiday season and the package deals will no longer be in effect and you can get whatever the hell you want.

Ay-yi-yi...

--Dave

Man, that's a crappy deal. They're really trying to screw ya with those packages, I think. I mean, I'm sure that's not they're only reasoning, but...It sucks.

The Xbox looks nice -- saw some videos this weekend on displays and stuff -- but I just don't know. That's a lot of money. I won't be buying a PS2, either. (I'm one of the few in that "Think the PSX is the most overrated system" category.) IF I buy one of these consoles, it'll be the Gamecube, for sure. I'm thinking more and more seriously about trying to catch a Dreamcast before they're all gone, though. If I ever get in on the $49 price, well -- I just can't pass it up at that price. Are they still planning on doing that?

Sega says they can't even fill all the hardware requests they've gotten at the current price point. And they're not manufacturing the system anymore so a further price-cut is out of the question. Might be able to pick up a used unit for like around $65. But there is going to be something special about (or included with) the last Dreamcast that goes out, so you might want to buy new.

I'll agree about Gunvalkyrie, the controls look painful.

>"I am lukewarm on the Xbox, but I'll tell you guys-- I got this E3 DVD demo disc from Lik-Sang when I ordered those gameboy advance screens. And I was *mightily* impressed with the Xbox game footage. Halo in particular. Sure, you've seen screenshots, maybe you've even seen some short 320x200 video clips. But seeing it run at full speed on your TV screen, full size.. it was impressive."

Yeah, I really would like to see the stuff in person. It's hard to tell anything over the internet. Watching handheld footage of DOA 3 and Project K X didn't look any better then Virtua Fighter 4 on the PS2 (which looks awsome).

Brad Grenz

"Adult supervision is needed."
"I prefer he play games suited to him and at a time when my wife and I choose."
"There's a time and place for extended gaming periods and it's not something a 3-year-old can decide for himself."

Dave, you're taking this thread -- and me -- WAYYYYYY too seriously. Take a deep breath ... say it with me:

"raising a child is not rocket science."
"raising a child is not rocket science."
"raising a child is not rocket science."

Bah, at the risk of taking you too seriously as well John, Dave's fine. He's taking it as seriously as he should. Children should be limited.

You're right, all three times, raising a child is not rocket science... it's more complicated. In rocket science there are clear cut right and wrong answers.

-Andrew

I was just poking fun at the sternness of his dictums. "a time when my wife and I choose." etc. Come on. This is the guy, after all, who said you couldn't "get" a certain movie unless you had kids.

I think all you ultra-serious parent types are funny. :)

(Hopefully will be one myself in a year or two.)

"This is the guy, after all, who said you couldn't "get" a certain movie unless you had kids."

That was only funny because of the movie he was talking about. ;>

-Andrew

This just in: My local Babbages isn't taking any X-Box preorders because they're afraid that the system is so overrated folks just won't come in and pick them up. A friend of mine was in there last weekend and overheard that conversation. There was an X-Box running some football game demo and the talk was about the medicore graphics.

I'm not too thrilled about the Gamecube or the PS2. X-Box was at least remotely interesting what with Shenmue II and Morrowind coming out for it - along with several other good titles for serious gamers. Now I'm wondering.

Also just got the latest Wired and the cover story is the X-Box but haven't had a chance to read it yet.

That seems a little rash. The Babbages near me is certainly taking X-Box orders. Amazon and ebgames.com keep selling out. Somebody's buying them. Whatever you say about the games, the hardware is pretty impressive.

I'm really not understanding all the talk about the "mediocre graphics." I mean, we have one of the dev kits here, and although we only have one game (NASCAR), it's pretty impressive. Prettier than NASCAR 4 on the PC, at any rate, and that's saying something. The graphics are near photrealistic, there is no noticeable popup anywhere, the game renders the full field of cars (try that in NASCAR 4), and there are all sorts of neat shadow effects (the shadows of the fences on the wall flashing across the cars gives a great impression of speed).

This talk about the graphics being sub-Dreamcast level is a load of crap--they aren't. Even the non-final hardware stuff that they had at E3 looked better than that.

Which NASCAR game is it Ben? NASCAR Heat? I'm willing to bet that you can run the PC version and you'll see little noticeable difference between the PC and Xbox. Heat was an impressive game on a GeForce2 GTS with everything cranked up. (I did the review.) MGI has a very good graphics engine there. Shadows moved in the cockpit based on sun position too.

If it looks very similar, then you're really not seeing anything you haven't seen before.

--Dave

The sub-Dreamcast level graphics being referred to were on the PS2 I believe. I know that's what I was talking about as was wumpus. The PS2's renderer is just plain lousy sometimes.

Xbox certainly looks good. The problem is the lineup of games seems mediocre at best.

--Dave

Every time a console comes out people complain about launch titles. XBox has halo and the EA sports titles and Dead or Alive 3 and Tony Hawk, etc. How many games can you play at once anyway?

I'm going to buy a Gamecube and, yes, the launch titles are not going to change my world. But there are plenty of great titles in the pipeline, and $199 you can't beat.

NASCAR Heat links...

http://www.xbox.com/Games/racing/nascarheat.htm for the Xbox version.

http://www.cdmag.com/articles/029/199/nascar_heat_review.html for the pix taken on my GeForce2 GTS Celeron@450.

Same game. Looks like they might have added some polygons to the cars, but there doesn't seem to be much else of note in these shots.

--Dave

Yeah, it's NASCAR Heat, and yeah--I'm pretty sure it looks better than it did on the PC.

"Xbox certainly looks good. The problem is the lineup of games seems mediocre at best."

It looks better than PS2's lineup when it launched. They'll have around 20 games at launch, with a bunch more ready to go (and trickling out over the following weeks). Of those, more than a few look really good. Cel Damage looks fantastic--Jason and I played that at E3, and it seems really cool both in looks and in concept. Dead or Alive 3 will probably rock. Munch's Odyssey and Project Gotham sound cool. Halo still looks very nifty. Azurik could be fun. Looking further out we have Jet Set Radio Future.

I don't have any of the next-gen systems (unless you count my Dreamcast), but aside from one or two titles (Baldur's Gate and Metal Gear Solid 2), I don't see much more on the PS2 that catches my eye. And it's been out for a year.

I should make it clear that my previous post refers to a discussion my friend overheard. I haven't seen the X-Box yet and am more likely to buy it, on the strength of the titles it's going to have than any other system. If some titles have weak graphics that probably has more to do with the designers than the steroid laden hardware.

I suppose I just worry that I'll be buying another system that's going to vanish on me. You'd think Microsoft would be promoting the crap out of the X-Box, if they were serious about it, but there's nothing in the mainstream media or very little.

>I still expect Sony to cut the price of the PS2 at least $50. I just think they'll want to be under the Xbox's list price and closer to the Gamecube.

Y'know, I think they're going with the theory that discounting their product now just makes it look like "yesterday's console" instead of a premium hot piece of hardware.

I'm not sure I agree with that, necessarily, but it's a perfectly valid marketing technique. There's a name for it, which I forget, but basically you take something cheaper and inferior and charge the same as superior competing products, and people start to associate it with the higher-quality goods. It's pretty common in clothing and accessories like purses and watches and stuff. And in the car industry, too.

It's an economic concept I remember studying at college that may be called the concept of a luxury good(can't be certain). A professor I had worked for Ford/Lincoln/Mercury and told us that he advocated raising the price of the Town Car above that of the Cadillac since the Town Car sales were behind the Cadillac (probably the Sedan de Ville). His reasoning was that when people bought luxury level cars they felt like they were getting more luxury if they paid more for the car. Ford did raise the price but not over that of the Cadillac and sales increased but they never surpassed the Cadillac.

Interesting stuff at least to someone with a BA in Econ and an MS in Environmental Econ. I don't do Environmental Econ anymore (no money in that field) I am currently a Database Architect. Sorry for the tangent, I just felt like sharing. :)

I think such a strategy would be unwise in the console market. Installed user base is pretty much the most important thing. Playing games with consumer perception seems risky to me. If they don't drop the price I think insufficient numbers of Gamecube and Xbox units available will be the primary factor. But I don't believe this will be the case.

Brad Grenz