So it's causing players to cancel their accounts, eh? Does anyone know what the patch addressed?

I know that it fixed things so that you can't damage enemies with anything other than special attacks.

Over at LumtheMad.net, they have a nice indepth list of the problems introduced with the patch.

A few of thew neat new issues:

Enemies have a nearly unlimited "nano" pool, making it so the easiest of enemies become nearly epic if they have any healing ability.

Enemies can be "morphed" by the shape shifting nanotech now. This has resulted in half the creatures in every zone being changed into Sparrows or Leets. In this forms, they either don't strike back or hit for almost nil damage.

In their attempts to alleviate lag, they introduced the joys of rubberband lag. This is getting many people killed because they THINK they're running away, but the server says they are sitting still. By the time the server and the client catch back up together, the player finds himself dead back at the place he was 30 seconds ago.

The quest creatures that are automatically generated by the quest generator machines are royally messed up. They tend to spawn much harder than they used to, but occassionally will spawn rediculously easier than they should be.

The list goes on...

Yeah, it sounds like a real mess. We should have expected this when they launched the game with insecure credit card transactions. I mean, how clueless is that?

It's also just showing how difficult it's going to be for smaller companies to compete with Sony, EA, and Microsoft. These MMOGs are the equivalent of blockbuster movies with large budgets.

Dark Age of Camelot could be good, though. They seem to be taking their time with it. I may give that one a try. It's supposed to be out next month. We'll see.

I was just discussing DAOC with a friend of mine this weekend. We might give it a go. Just a 2x a week kinda deal for me due to a new job time contraints (also why I hardly ever post anymore).

Wow. Not that I'm overly surprised by the latest AO carwreck in progress, but geez already. Is this the first game written by those involved?

No, Funcom's made games before, including the well-received adventure game The Longest Journey -- think that's the name.

Making a roleplaying MMOG is a different beast, though.

"Making a roleplaying MMOG is a different beast, though. " - Mark Asher


Very very true. I remember back in the UO release days playing test server with a fellow who went by the name of Courageous. He said something along the lines of "An MMORPG is much more than a game. OSI has experience making games which is only half the total product. The other half is an online *service*, which is a totally different type of enterprise, and OSI has no experience at all in that type of business."

He was dead-on re: UO and for most of the MMORPGs so far, his comments still applies: Verant made a great GAME in EQ but the service sucks =).

That's why I am pretty hyped up about DAOC: Mythic seems to understand that they are both selling us a game and a service and seem to have reasonable expectations and ideas for both.

Daniel Ban aka Sharpe for Kohan and Blunte for DAOC (hey I'm a Cleric!)

AO issues:

1. The difficulty in mobs has increased to the point where it is frustrating to take them down. In a game that has emphasized its soloability, this is pretty much a kick squar' inna nutz to the casual non-group-oriented player. To give you an example: Mobs in AO con grey (weakest) through green-yellow-orange-red. Grey mobs give 1xp. Before the patch, my MA char--on the third reroll, so I'm pretty much optimized--could tank down a pair of oranges and survive. Not by much. Now, my MA can barely take a yellow, and two greens is instant death.

If they'd changed the xp for mobs, this wouldn't be a problem.

2. Mobs have no limitations on their casting abilities. Thus, you'll often find mobs with two or three reflective-damage shields on them (for players, using a better version cancels the lower one), two or three armor buffs (again, players don't stack), and they'll have mobs in adjoining rooms chain-healing the mob you're fighting. This wouldn't be so bad if mobs over 50 didn't have three to five times the hit points of an individual player.

3. Bugs that had been patched in previous version have returned in full force. Crashes to desktop, disconnects, drops, rubberbanding, time warping... all those wonderful things that are normally fixed in beta. And the ironic thing is bugs that *were* fixed previously are now broken again.

4. Various staggering nerfs across the board. Tweaks as well--one of which makes it impossible for 95%+ of characters in the game to do any damage to mobs whatsoever. Players that cast are finding mobs have a 100% resist rate if they're yellow or higher.

5. Irritations like nano/health and armor class not being displayed properly.

So basically, they slapped on a global change nearly entirely untested and ignored/overlooked the feedback they did get from testers. This change pretty much hung the casual gamer, screwed the exploiters, broke a bunch of stuff that was already fixed, and broke a bunch of new stuff as well.

It's become clear that few people over at Funcom have any real idea of what they're doing. The fact that the client CTDs three or four times a night on everyone's machine that I've ever talked to is significant. The fact that they wield the nerf stick with such casual abandon is disturbing. And the fact that they nearly always break more than they fix with patches is... so bizarre I could barely complete the thought.

Me, I cancelled my account yesterday. I don't have the time or the patience to deal with crap like this. And from their boards, their fan sites, and various other forums around the web, it would appear that there is at least a mini-exodus of sorts going on currently.

Hell, even the fanboys are cancelling.

What kind of service do you want in an MMOG? I just want the game to work right. One of the problems is that players expect the MMOG company to respond to their requests for code changes. That's expecting a lot.

It's also hard to balance these games without nerfing, which tends to tick off the player base.

Just to give you an example of the challenge that Mythic faces, there's already some players upset that the game doesn't support OOC and Shouts like EQ. Some players feel it ruins the RPG aspects of these games and some players feel the game is lacking without OOC and shout. How do you please both camps?

"it would appear that there is at least a mini-exodus of sorts going on currently."

Yeah, it looks bad. It's a shame, too, because the game is pretty and fills a niche that the other current ones don't fill. If they'd done it right, they'd probably be pretty successful.

Of course if they'd done it right, it wouldn't be out until next year, I guess.

---

Quote:

Just to give you an example of the challenge that Mythic faces, there's already some players upset that the game doesn't support OOC and Shouts like EQ. Some players feel it ruins the RPG aspects of these games and some players feel the game is lacking without OOC and shout. How do you please both camps?

---

Asher:
"What kind of service do you want in an MMOG? I just want the game to work right."

I would like the game to work right, and develop--or change--with a consistent idea or goal of some sort in mind. Internal consistency, if you will.

"One of the problems is that players expect the MMOG company to respond to their requests for code changes. That's expecting a lot."

That's expecting too much, frankly. But expecting a code change to fix the goddamned crashes to desktop? Is that too much too ask? I would hope not.

"It's also hard to balance these games without nerfing, which tends to tick off the player base."

There's nerfing, and there's *nerfing*, if you know what I mean. Yeah, players are gonna get ticked off when you reduce their abilities, but--and this is a big but (and don't say it)--as long as it's clear that the nerf was for the good of the game, then the caterwauling will be limited in duration. However, arbitrary, ham-handed, haphazard nerfs are justifiably a cause for outrage.

AO fails on both counts. Point the first: Since the design of the game is clearly unfinished--and, I would imagine, largely unknown--most nerfs thus far have not been justified by the team. This boils down to two things, imho: (1) Desperation to make players conform to how they (Funcom) think the game should be played, and (2) No real understanding of what players are capable of.

Thus, any nerfs in the game feel retributive in nature. Did you know that Funcom truly expected no one to hit level 200 for FOUR YEARS? Footnote: One player hit 200 yesterday, and another is on track to do it today--39 months ahead of schedule. This ties into "No idea what players are capable of."

Point the second: The balance changes and nerfs are due to a horribly deficient beta. Funcom posted--I kid you not--that Aimed Shot (a "special" for the Agent class) was twenty times more powerful than it should have been.

Read that again. Twenty times too powerful.

I could understand missing 2x as powerful. Even 3x maybe. But twenty?

So not only do they apparently not have a clue about their user base, not only do they not have a clue about their own game design, but they apparently don't have a clue how to balance properly without having a mini-exodus of people who aren't powergamers, who don't exploit, and who just want to play the game as designed. Problem there is no one apparently knows what the design is supposed to be.

Now, given the issues they had--players leveling "too quickly", mobs underpowered/too easy, special attacks off the hook--a competent company might have done something like this:

* Give mobs the ability to throw two additional spells per mob class. For instance, mobs with heal and damage shields would cast only those, and only on themselves. Mobs with heals and AC buffs, the same. Mobs with no heals would cast... whatever buffs they had, but only two, and only on themselves. This would be in addition to the ones they cast currently. Check it, patch it, test it. Then, if they're still underpowered, give them the ability to cast two more in their class, on themselves. Then, if they're still underpowered, let them cast on one other mob of their choosing. Then, if they're still underpowered, let them cast on multiple mobs.

See the progression? Make them tougher, but gradually. Funcom basically said, "Hey, let's let 'em cast everything all at once right now!" Right now, most mobs are unsoloable, and many are completely unkillable. And the lag in missions... my god. Pretend you're playing a Q3A map or something where 50-60 bots can buff one another but they can't move, and they all start doing it constantly as soon as the level loads. And they're continuously doing it as you play through it. That's what it's like, because that's what they do.

So let's say Funcom backs it off, maybe, and tries something different--but it's too late for the mass of accounts they've hemorrhaged in the last four or five days.

When you lose the support of your fanboys, you have to KNOW you've screwed up.

* For the special attacks, same thing. Drop the damage by 25%, say, and raise the skill requirement by 10-20%. If that doesn't work, do it again. And again. But gradually, and slightly more with each patch.

But again, this presumes that the game has some sort of underlying cohesiveness, and that it isn't just a bunch of random physics and combat code tacked on to a damned pretty engine.

We'll see. Myself, I'll be very surprised if they can keep doing this for very much longer and keep the game running--because if there's one thing players in this genre agree on, it's that they don't want their time wasted.

Haphazard, fundamental changes like this waste your players' time.

"Thus, any nerfs in the game feel retributive in nature. Did you know that Funcom truly expected no one to hit level 200 for FOUR YEARS? Footnote: One player hit 200 yesterday, and another is on track to do it today--39 months ahead of schedule. This ties into "No idea what players are capable of.""

Geez, if they really thought that they were were inexperienced. Didn't they see how fast players learned to level in games like EQ?

Let's hope Mythic has a good launch. If they don't, I may give up on small companies and MMOGs entirely.

I emailed some of my old guild mates in EQ and they are ALL going to be trying out DAOC. a few of them are in the current beta and they say its EQ without the headaches (except you run slow in DAOC). They all love it... wow!

I think DAOC is going to be a surprise hit... it might not pick up 400k subscribers in its first few months... But I would reckon this game would be able to get 100 - 150k subscribers by xmas. Its possible thru time that DAOC could dethrone EQ at its own game...

"Let's hope Mythic has a good launch. "

I'm betting DAOC will have problems at launch, not as much as AO or WW2online but equal to EQ's. actually most mmrpgs will have problems at launch... i think its part of the mmrpg experience..though how long the launch problems last is a different story.

etc

Oh and one GREAT thing about DAOC my old guildy's said was that its much faster paced than EQ... ah thats all i really wanted.

etc

"Geez, if they really thought that they were were inexperienced. Didn't they see how fast players learned to level in games like EQ?"

Mark, based on what I've seen thus far, I think it's safe to say Funcom has learned precious little from those that went before them. And I think it's safe to say that this lack of learning is going to cost them, both in the short and long run.

And I would dearly love to know how many accounts were cancelled from 9-22-01 to 9-25-01. We'll never know, of course, but I wonder if it's better--or worse--than I think it is.

I'd like to also know how many accounts were cancelled. DAoC will probably be more of an AO killer than EQ killer.

"And I think it's safe to say that this lack of learning is going to cost them, both in the short and long run."

Sounds like it already has. At one point they claimed 60,000 subscribers. I bet the numbers are quite a bit smaller now.

"I emailed some of my old guild mates in EQ and they are ALL going to be trying out DAOC. a few of them are in the current beta and they say its EQ without the headaches (except you run slow in DAOC). They all love it... wow!"

You know, running slow is a big deal to me. I hate travel time. In EQ it's not too bad, but it's still a drag at times. I also like Shout and OOC because I solo a lot and shouts and OOCs give me that sense of being in a multiplayer game.

It's funny how small things in an MMOG can be important to some and not to others.

"I think DAOC is going to be a surprise hit... it might not pick up 400k subscribers in its first few months... But I would reckon this game would be able to get 100 - 150k subscribers by xmas."

Yeah, I could see it. I think there's a nice pool of hardcore MMOG players looking for a new experience. AO and WWIIO didn't seem to do it. I think DAoC will probably get 50,000 subscribers right away and 100,000 seems quite doable.

"Its possible thru time that DAOC could dethrone EQ at its own game..."

I'll be surprised. Luclin will bring in new players and Sony's going to push it hard overseas with localized versions. I expect EQ to get bigger, and it's no big secret that they're working on EQ2.

I doubt EQ2 is four years away. It might be out in less than two years. The biggest problem Sony has is trying to figure out the business model for running two versions of EQ. On one hand, it doesn't make sense to launch a new version. You're just stealing from your current player base. OTOH, if you don't modernize the game, competitors will one-up you.

Anyway, don't expect them to announce it until it's close to being ready for beta. Announcing a new version will depress sales of the current version.

I remember when UO announced the 2nd Age, they gave all existing UO members a discounted rate on the expansion -- I could see EQ doing the same. I mean, it seems really strange to have 2 games going (EQ and EQ2) that compete. More likely, I think, they'll look to migrate everyone over from EQ to EQ2, raise the monthly fee a tad (to 12.50 or so), and then drop EQ altogether in exchange for the sequel.

At least, that's what I'd do.

In my perfect world... DAoC is the best game and EQ is still more popular becuase then I would want all the leet freaks to play EQ and then i'll have fun with DAOC! bah, im dreaming.

anyway, i just preordered DAoC on reccomendation of some friends and old guildmates... we're planning to play on Hibernia most likely!

Luclin wont change my mind about EQ... it still will be the same game... maybe it will be more popular than DAOC, but all i really want is a good mmrpg experience similar to EQ but with faster gameplay and high level pvp ... DAoC seems to fit the bill.

etc

What do they mean by "faster gameplay"?

Med times are faster ... monster spawns are faster... battles are about half the time of EQ's, health regens are faster, corpse recovery NONE (though in higher levels theres some other things like it) etc etc etc. Its just basically EQ twice as fast, as they said. Its not Diablo speed... but its EQ gameplay with a bit of a faster timer. Thats what ive been looking for.

I'm guessing it wont be SUPER fast... based on posts from beta testers its just right. It leaves room to socialize but not enough to get too bored or antsy. they say the avg empty to full mana replenish is about 2-3 minutes at higher levels. In eq i remember full mana to regen was up to 10 minutes! Though i think the leveling up i hear is about on par with eq. The levels dont matter as long as im doing something in the game.

Everybody i've read who praises Camelot basically says that its EQ without the hassles. It might not be ultra fast... but the impression i get from beta testers is that the timing in the game is just right compared to EQ. Some people also have no problem with the running issue. so who knows.
Right now, its the only NEW fantasy mmrpg close to release... i have to pick it up just for that!

We shall see how it goes. Its possible it could suck!

etc

Heres a good link to a thread on the Vault about DAOC. It seems to give a good representation of Camelots gameplay.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=16777249

etc

Stop making me want to check out DAoC. I have a wife and kid now. I have no time for MMORPGs.

I'll check out DAoC. I'm interested. The downtime in EQ really is a bit of a problem.

If DAoC does well, I wouldn't be surprised to see Verant reduce downtime in EQ.

mtkafka: "...anyway, i just preordered DAoC..."

Nothing personal, but this is one of the reasons why games continue to be released before they're ready. FYI.

Mark: "If DAoC does well, I wouldn't be surprised to see Verant reduce downtime in EQ."

Um. How long have you been playing EQ, Mark? Have Verant or Sony ever done anything due to competition, perceived or otherwise? Come on, man. :)

Well, they're adding horses to the Luclin expansion. They're also planning on adding a new PvP server with modified rules. I think both of these are in reaction to the competition.

It's hard to make changes to these games. If Verant moved to reduce downtime via faster mana and health regen, then they'd have to make the monsters spawn faster, players would level faster, etc. It's a tricky business making basic changes like that.

DAoC may be great, but maybe you'll get to the end game faster, and if you don't like PvP, what then?

Just spotted this from you, Mark. :)

"I doubt EQ2 is four years away. It might be out in less than two years. The biggest problem Sony has is trying to figure out the business model for running two versions of EQ."

Actually, the biggest problem Sony will have is how to figure out how to work both SWG and EQ2 in the same revenue stream. As I'm sure you've noticed by now, these games--even if you play 'em casually--take up a lot of time. No way is a true casual gamer going to pay for a game s/he only plays half the time. So which one do they pick? "Hmmm... Let's see. I can be a half-naked wood elf that looks like it came off the cover of some 1960's pulp-fiction high-fantasy novel... or I can be a JEDI!"

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which way that one's gonna go.

I'm not entirely convinced that EQ2 is a rock-solid likelihood because of that, myself. I mean, it seems inevitable, but... dunno. Sony and Verant would both be much better served by retooling EQ with updated/modern functionality than to make a new one and try to go up against the colossus of SWG... while maintaining, in effect, three entirely different server farms, three entirely different customer service staffs, and three entirely different Live teams. The bean counters would go apeshit just thinkin about that bottom line, especially when EQ is sort of long in the tooth. Relatively speaking.

We'll see. Going to be interesting. And hey, what the hell ever happened to Sovereign, btw?

Hm. Something I just realized that I overlooked, and that's probably because this kind of multi-MMOG situation hasn't happened before. Let's say EQ+expansions, EQ2, and SWG are all running at once.

What if Sony says, "Hey, we know how hard it is to choose between these three spectacular products--so why choose? If you register one account for one game, it'll cost you 9.89 a month... but if you register two, we'll only ding you 13.89 a month, and if you get all three, it'll only be 19.89 a month! Such a deal! You get your cake and eat it too, and you can play any game as much as you like!"

Y'know, the more I think about this... damn. Best-case: three boxed sales, twice the incoming revenue... but only 1/3 the theoretical customer service and bandwidth expenditures.

And the casual customer would get gaming variety (two genres, one solid license) and the comfort of knowing s/he's only getting billed once for all the games s/he wants to play. This would increase your retention, because they'd be much more hesitant to go elsewhere, having three different games to play and all.

Has possibilities.

Yeah, I suspect they'll evolve towards that pricing model at some point. They'll probably wait until they have at least three games up and running.

I do think we'll see an EQ2. World of Warcraft will force them to respond with a newer version of EQ. I also think DAoC will chip away at their subscriber base a bit. Shadowbane could, but I suspect that will compete more with DAoC.

"I do think we'll see an EQ2. World of Warcraft will force them to respond with a newer version of EQ. I also think DAoC will chip away at their subscriber base a bit. Shadowbane could, but I suspect that will compete more with DAoC. "

I think this is what most likely will happen too. EQ2 will never be announced in the near future. After Luclin we will hear of "massive changed to the EQ game" without anything about EQ2.. though they may advertise it as some new game. Verant would be good to make a few new servers with "enhanced" gameplay of EQ, almost an eq 1.5 instead of a new sequel. That was they dont have to make completely new content but just add major changes to the old one. UO kinda did it with cancelling UO2 and releasing Third Dawn (whcih surpsingly isnt used by most of the UO players, the client that is), EQ should take a similar approach... though an EQ 2 sequel probably will be made, i thinj its more than 4 years away...

EQ is still a great game, but a lot can be done to make it MUCH more popular. I mean i wouldnt be surprised to know that a quarter of EQ's players have two accounts or more, thus inflating the real number of EQ subscribers. meaning that if the lose half of those two account players... they are possibly losing something like 40 to 50 thousand...

anyway, if DAOC is just a moderate success it will be agood thing. It doesnt have to beat EQ, it just has to take away enough customers to make Verant move.

etc

One thing about Camelot thats very interesting, based on posts on various boards... is that all characters can solo, and that all of them feel much more powerful than there EQ counterparts. They say there is a feeling of actually having a character that means something! this is what also made me hate EQ... that my character would always have a hard time even with blue creatures at level 30 solo.

Im not sure how accurate the statement is, but EQ veterans are saying this about DAOC. Im really hoping this game is good and does well, we really need an alternative fantasy 3d mmrpg besides EQ and AC. Not in 3 years, but now!

etc

Isn't Luclin a huge update both graphically and in gameplay? It uses an earlier iteration of the SWG graphics engine right? Or is that some other expansion to Everquest I was reading about?

I dunno guys, I don't think there will ever be an EQ2 running in parallel with an EQ1. They're more likely to offer some sort of deal to customers of EQ1 if they ever do a true expansion. Hell, I'd just check if that person has been a paying EQ customer for some set length of time (say a year), and mail them the EQ2 boxed game client for free and just shut down the old game. You don't want to lose customers because they don't want to buy another $50 box to play the same game in new clothing. Maybe even give the client away to anyone playing EQ currently on the release of a "sequel".

Bill's scenario of one fee for multiple games on the same company's service is another likely scenario. But I'd still give the damn client away to those heavily invested in the game.

--Dave

Luclin is a big update in gameplay and is their biggest expansion yet. There's a lot of stuff in it that hasn't been revealed yet.

Graphically, I'd call it a marginal update. Most of the art is the same. They're using some new technology in the engine that will let them render more detail in some situations and the player character models are all getting updated, but it's not going to look like a new game.

EQ fans will be pleased if it all works as promised, I think.

As to EQ2, I suspect they'll work out some kind of deal for current players. Maybe it will be the "EQ Super Account" that gives you access to both games for $15.

"What if Sony says, "Hey, we know how hard it is to choose between these three spectacular products--so why choose? If you register one account for one game, it'll cost you 9.89 a month... but if you register two, we'll only ding you 13.89 a month, and if you get all three, it'll only be 19.89 a month! Such a deal! You get your cake and eat it too, and you can play any game as much as you like!""

EA is already doing something akin to this. You buy Gold or Platinum memberships to their service and it allows you to play some or all of their games (depending on the membersip you choose). If EA had a game worth playing, I would consider it. If Verant did it with EQ and SWG, I couldn't type in my credit card number fast enough. I hardly play EQ anymore, but I'm betting Luclin will (unfortunatly) once again drain 15 hours of my free time per week when it is first released. Well, depending on if DAoC grabs me or not...

Speaking of which, I preordered 2 copies of DAoC a couple of weeks ago for me and my significant other. She fell in love with EQ and is pretty excited about DAoC (does it get any better than this?). Never played an RPG in her life and only played things like RollerCoaster Tycoon on her PC, but every day after work now she's asking me questions about EQ, advice for her character, begging me to farm something for her, hehe. But I digress... I have high hopes for DAoC. It looks snazzy, they are actually learning from the mistakes of other companies (see, Funcom? This is what YOU were supposed to do), and their CS is going to be 100% paid employees. This makes for a slightly hihger pricing model, but I'm willing to put up with that to have a GM available 24/7. For a given 24 hour period in EQ, there is a GM available only 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Sure, there are Guides on almost 24/7, but they are volenteers that have no real ability to do anything other than summon corpses and write down names for when the GM is on duty. It's frustrating as a player and it's also frustrating if you're a guide.

So anyway, I'll be seeing you in Hybernia, Mtkafka, it's the realm the two of us and a few of my old EQ guide mates are planning on.

The pricing for DAoC isn't too bad if you up for six months. Then it's just $11 a month, I think.

Better make sure you dig it first, though.

About flat pricing, yeah, I'd go for a one price gets all deal. Something like that would make games like Planetside and Sovereign more attractive, since I don't think either will have persistent elements as attractive as those you get in the RPGs.

Nice thing about DAoC's pricing is that they don't require you to sign up for a pricing plan until after your free month is up.

If I remember EQ's pricing (this was long ago, so I could be wrong), you had to register for a pricing plan and provide a credit card number. If you didn't cancel your account at the end of the free month, they autocharged your credit card. One slip up and you were locked in for another 30 - 180 days.

As for Verant's other products, I feel the same way, Mark. I enjoy the idea of Sovereign and Planetside...but would I be willing to pay $10 - $15 a month for either one of them? Probably not, since I'm already paying $9.89 a month for EQ and will soon be paying at least $10.95 for DAoC (assuming I enjoy it). Combine that to my $50 a month cable modem bill and suddenly I'm paying $71 a month to play online games. I can't see adding additional games into the mix.

Wow, this thread got lively all of a sudden.

Dave Long:
"Isn't Luclin a huge update both graphically and in gameplay? It uses an earlier iteration of the SWG graphics engine right? Or is that some other expansion to Everquest I was reading about?"

Luclin's going to comprise a largely-modified EQ engine--more polys, crisper art, etc. But at the core, it'll still be the EQ engine.

"Hell, I'd just check if that person has been a paying EQ customer for some set length of time (say a year), and mail them the EQ2 boxed game client for free and just shut down the old game."

This would be a huge mistake, unless--and only unless--each player's character was migrated in full to the new game. And I don't even know if that'd be possible.

Jim Frazer:
"Speaking of which, I preordered 2 copies of DAoC a couple of weeks ago for me and my significant other. She fell in love with EQ and is pretty excited about DAoC (does it get any better than this?)."

Heh. You must not be sharin a 56k connection through WinRoute like I am. :) "Honey, can I check my mail?" (Thinking: Damn, I been out of the house for friggin 13 hours at work and commuting, I get two hours a day to play online, and... ARGH.) "Yes, go ahead. I'll go out and have a smoke real fast." *sigh*

"Wow, this thread got lively all of a sudden"

There is also good news on Max Payne that you will all be enjoying. Max Payne is known to many of you as a game that is like Anarchy Online, only without the troubling parts! Also it is from Finland, instead of Norway. Finland is like Norway in the ways that you know. Here is the news in Finnish and English!

Greetz

1: Skulle du kunna ber�tta lite om dig sj�lv? Vem �r du och vad arbetar du med? Hej, Jag heter Aki M��t� kallas Marvel, 25 �r gammal och jag arbetar f�r Remedy Entertainment och gjorde texturer och banor till Max Payne. Jag har jobbat p� Remedy sedan b�rjan av 98.
2: Ert nyligen sl�ppta spel, Max Payne har f�tt stor inverkan p� spelarna d�r ute. �r du f�rv�nad av folks reaktioner om spelet? Eller �r det vad ni har f�rv�ntat er?

Det �r i stort sett de reaktioner som vi har v�ntat oss � Det �r ocks� kul att se att spelet har gjort bra ifr�n sig i Europa. Jag visste egentligen inte hur folk skulle reagera � Jag visste att vi gjorde ett bra spel, men visste inte hur bra det var. Tv� veckor innan spelet gick guld (till produktion) s� k�ndes spelet v�ldigt v�ldigt bra, men n�r man har spelat det i 10 dagar i rad s� blir man lite avtrubbad. N�r allt kommer till kritan s� �r jag inte direkt f�rv�nad �ver folks reaktioner, det var vad jag hade hoppats p�.

3: Max Payne �r ju v�ldigt v�ldsamt spel, har ni f�tt ta emot kritik f�r detta? K�nner du att det �r motiverat i s� fall?

Jag tycker inte att Max �r v�ldigt v�ldsamt, i alla fall inte p� samma s�tt som i Soldier of Fortune. Visst, i Max s� d�dar du m�nniskor och man f�r se blod, men det �r inte �verdrivet eller �cklande. V�ldet ligger p� en niv� som man kan f�v�nta sig i en vanlig actionfilm.

4: Hur k�nner du inf�r v�ld i datorspel? �r det f�r mycket eller f�r lite? Finns det n�got bra s�tt att anv�nda v�ld i spel?

Personligen s� gillar jag inte direkt spel som Soldier of Fortune som i stort sett bara handlar om blod och att stympa folk. Jag anser att om v�ldet �r p� den niv�n som det �r i Max Payne, s� �r det det mest passande s�ttet (om man nu anser att det finns ett bra s�tt att genomf�ra det p�).

5: Max Payne tog ett bra tag att utveckla. Under denna tiden s� riktades det mycket negativ kritik mot spelet, hur k�nner du inf�r det? Brukar spelarna f�rv�nta sig kortare produktionstider?

Visst, spelare vill alltid ha spel s� fort som m�jligt, dom ska vara s� l�nga som m�jligt. Detta utan att inse hur mycket arbete det ligger i att utveckla ett spel. I v�rt fall s� gick mycket av tiden �t till att att utveckla teknologin som driver Max Payne. F�r utvecklare s� �r det dessutom trevligare att g�ra kortare projekt. Om ett projekt tar fyra �r att slutf�ra s� tappar folk motivationen ibland.

N�r det g�ller kritik s� har jag i stort sett l�st varenda recension (p� engelska och finska) och jag m�ste s�ga att det inte �r speciellt m�nga som pekar ut mycket negativa saker. Den negativa kritik vi har f�tt har varit r�ttf�rdigad. N�r man �r spelutvecklare s� blir man ju till slut blind inf�r den egna produkten. Det blir som �jag kan inte se skogen f�r alla tr�den� effekten.

6: Vad �r du mest stolt �ver i Max Payne?

Den sammansatta k�nslan och utseendet. Om du vill veta vad jag �r mest stolt �ver av det som jag gjorde s� f�r jag nog s�ga att det �r detaljrikedomen jag lyckades f� in i banorna. Det k�nns som att milj�erna �r mer verkliga.

7: Mellansekvenserna i Max Payne best�r ju av tecknade seriestripper, n�got som onekligen �r ett nytt grepp. Hur kommer det sig att ni valde att anv�nda det?

Tidigt under utvecklingen s� h�mtade vi mycket inspiration fr�n tecknade serier. D� tyckte vi ocks� att det skulle vara ett friskt tag att anv�nda oss av seriestripper i mellansekvenserna. Man f�r ju s�ga att det fungerade v�ldigt bra.

8: Det har alltid pratats om multiplayerdelen, eller snarare avsaknaden av multiplayer. Medans bullettime och bulletdodge g�r multiplay om�jligt, hade ni inte bara kunnat strunta i de funktionerna och g�ra en vanlig multiplayerdel?

I denna Counter-Strike v�rld s� verkar det inte finnas plats f�r n�gra andra lyckade multiplayerspel. Detta har m�rkts tydligt i spel som Deus Ex och No-one lives forever. B�da spelen hade multiplayer, men m�nga spelare valde att inte anv�nda det, v�ldigt f� valde att spela multiplayer i de spelen. Om vi hade haft multiplayer i Max s� hade folk spelat det ett litet tag och sedan g�tt tillbaka till Counter-Strike och sagt �det �r inte CS�. Dessutom s� tog det tid att utveckla ett singleplayer spel., hade vi dessutom gjort en multiplayerdel s� hade nog spelet inte kommit ut f�rr�n i slutet av �r 2002.

9: Hur �r det att vara spelutvecklare i Finland? Med tanke p� konsumenter, distribut�rer, finanser och �vriga aspekter?

Jag tror inte att det �r n�gon skillnad p� var man utvecklar spelet. Det beror p� hur bra utgivare och marknad man har. Finland �r ett kanonst�lle att utveckla spel p�, mycket lutar �t hi-tech h�llet och har ett modernt samh�lle och omgivningar, n�got som hj�lper en hel del.

10: Under utvecklingen av Max Payne, vad var sv�rast att �stakomma?

Med st�rsta s�kerhet s� var det att balasera spelet. Jag tror att vi lyckades v�ldigt bra och det finns v�ldigt f� st�llen d�r spelet blir f�r sv�rt/l�tt/tr�kigt. Det finns alltid n�got att g�ra som h�ller intresset uppe.

11: Under hela utvecklingen s� hade ni 3DRealms vid er sida, hur har detta p�verkat spelet?

3DRealms f�rde med sig mycket hard-core kunskap och erfarenhet och jag v�gar nog s�ga att Max Payne hade nog inte varit det spel det �r nu, utan deras hj�lp. 3DRealms gjorde inget direkt i sj�lva spelet, men de kom med bra id�er till designen och utf�randet.

12: Max Payne �r ett spel som kr�ver en hel del h�rdvara f�r att se bra ut. Hur kommer det sig att ni valde att g�ra ett spel med s� pass avancerad grafik? Tycker ni att dagens spel �r f�r kr�vande av folks datorer?

Egentligen s� �r inte Max s� v�lidgt systemkr�vande som folk tror. Jag anser att det �r en av de f�rsta titlarna som har realistiska minimumkrav. M�nga spel �h�vdar� att de kan k�ras p� en 200 mhz maskin, men i verkligheten s� �r de spelen ospelbara p� de systemen.

Som grafiker s� �lskar jag bra grafik och vice versa. �ven om m�let �r att f� spelet att se realitiskt ut och ha en filmaktig k�nsla, s� m�ste grafiken vara tillr�ckligt bra. Med tanke p� dessa faktorer s� kom vi att ha en viss grad av detaljrikedom. N�got som vi k�nde att det inte blev f�r mycket, men samtidigt som det var s� sn�llt som m�jligt f�r massorna. Dessutom s� �r avancerad grafik coolt!

Det g�ller f�r spel generellt sett ocks�, nej jag tycker inte att de �r f�r kr�vande p� maskinerna. Jag skulle hellre skylla p� f�retagen som tillverkar datorer och som fortfarande s�ljer oss datorer som inte �r tillr�ckligt snabba, bara f�r att g�ra b�ttre vinst. Man kan ju fortfarande k�pa datorer med 64 mb ram minne, speciellt nu n�r minne n�stan inte kostar n�gonting.

13: Det �r sagt att nu n�r Max Payne �r ute i butikerna s� ska Remedy hj�lpa 3Drealms att f�rdigst�lla Duke Nukem Forver. �r detta sant, i s� fall, hur kommer ni att hj�pa dem?

Det �r faktiskt f�rsta g�ngen jag h�r n�got s�dant. Vilket betyder att det inte har n�gon verklighetsf�rankring. Fast � andra sidan s� �r det kul att se vilka konstiga saker folk hittar p�.

14: Vad ligger i framtiden f�r Remedy? Kommer ni att b�rja jobba p� ett nytt Max Payne spel?

Just nu s� g�r vi hj�lpguider till v�ra verktyg (MaxEdD) och ska b�rja st�dja det samh�lle som v�xt upp runt spelet. Dessutom s� ska vi hj�lpa till med konsollversionerna av spelet. Vi ska snart fastst�lla vad v�rt n�sta projekt blir, men inget som �r klart �n.

15: Om du fick beskriva Max Payne med ett enda ord, vad skulle det bli?

Stil.

16: Som avslutning, �r det n�got du vill s�ga till fansen d�r ute?

Med all respekt �t Valve; Sn�lla m�nniskor, sluta spela Counter-Strike och g�r n�got med era liv. Nu skulle det vara ett bra tillf�lle att visa oss vad ni kan g�ra. S� starta upp MaxED och imponera p� oss.

In english


1: First off, could you give us some information about yourself. Who are you and what do you work with?

Hi, I'm Aki M��tt� aka Marvel, 25 years old, work for Remedy Entertainment and made levels and textures for Max Payne; been working in Remedy since early '98.

2: Your recently released game, Max Payne has made a huge impact on the gamers out there. Are you suprised of the reactions among the people to your game? Or was this what you expected?

The reactions have been pretty much what we expected - it has also been really nice to see the game has fared really well in Europe. I really didn't know how I expected the public would react - I knew we had made a great game but how good, I didn't know - two weeks before going gold the game felt very very good, but after playing it for 10 days straight, I started to become numb. All in all, I guess even as the reactions have been very positive, I wasn't too surprised by them, they were pretty much what I hoped for. :)

3: Max Payne is a very violent game, have you faced any critcism against this? If that is the case, do you feel that it is justified?

I don't feel Max is all _that_ violent, atleast not the same way as games like Soldier of Fortune. Sure, in Max you kill people and see blood, but it's not excessive and it's not all that gory - it reminds you more of the level you see in a normal action-movie.

4: How do you feel about the use of violence in computer games? Is there too much, too little? What is the �best way� to use violence in a game? Is there any?

I personally don't like that much games like Soldier of Fortune which basically are just about gore and dismembering limbs - I feel if the violence is justified (if one feels violence ever is), the correct level is pretty much that what you see in Max Payne.

5: Max Payne took quite a while to develop. In this time there was alot of negative criticism towards the game. How do you feel about it? Does players expect that games should be shorter in the making?

Sure, players always want games as soon as possible and to be as long as possible, without realising how much effort must be put into developing the game in order to achieve those goals. And also in our case, a lot of time was put into developing the technology behind Max Payne. Also from a developers standpoint it's nicer to make shorter projecs - in a four-year-one the focus gets sometimes lost and people lose motivation.

What it comes to criticism, I've read pretty much every single (English and/or Finnish) review out there and must say not too many of them actually portrayed too many negative things - I feel most of the negative criticism has been more or less realistic; there's also the fact that when one is involved in making something, one bounds to become somewhat blind to that which one is making - the can't-see-forest-from-the-trees -effect. :)

6: What are you most proud about in Max Payne?

The consistent look and feel. If you want to know what I'm most proud of, out of those things I made for Max, I'd have to say it's the amount of nice details I managed to put into the levels - makes the surroundings feel more real.

7: The cutscenes consist of �cartoon-strips�, while this is a new move, why did you choose to use that sort of cutscenes?

Early on, when we started to work on Max, cartoons were very much the area we took influence from. Back at that time we also thought cartoons might be a new and refreshing thing to portray things in a game; I have to say it worked out very well.

8: There has always been alot of talk about the multiplayer component, or rather, the lack of it. While bullettime and bulletdodge makes multiplay impossible, couldn�t you just have excluded these two functions and made a normal multiplayer component?

In a world of Counter-Strike there doesn't seem to be much room for any other highly successfull multiplayer games. This has been well portrayed with games like Deus Ex and No-One Lives Forever - both games have multiplayer in them, but not too many people play the multiplayer, if any. Had we made multiplayer for Max, people most likely would've played it for a while and then just turned back to CS, stating "nah, it's not CS". Also, making a great singleplayer game took it's pretty time to develop, had we added a multiplayer into that, the game wouldn't be ready until late 2002 or so. :)

9: How is it to be a game developer in Finland? Considering consumers, distributors, financing and other aspects?

I don't think there's much difference where one developes the game, it all depends on how good a publisher and marketing you have - Finland is a great place to develop a game, very much leaned towards hi-tech and has a modern society and surroundings, which helps a lot.

10: During the development of Max Payne, what was the hardest task to accomplish?

Most likely the well balanced gameplay. I think that turned out very well and in very few locations the game is too hard/easy or becomes dull - you always have something to keep your interest up.

11: During the development of Max Payne, 3DRealms have always been by your side. How has this affected the game?

3Drealms brought in a lot of hard-core knowledge and experience, and I have to say Max wouldn't have been the same game without them. 3DRealms didn't make anything to the actual game per se, but affected design-decisions and brought in great ideas.

12: Max Payne is a game that requires alot of hardware to look good. How come you decided to make a game with such adavanced graphics? Do you feel that the games of today genereally are too demanding on people�s computers?

Actually, Max isn't all that heavy as people generally seem to think - I feel it is one of the first titles that has realistic minimum specs - many games 'claim' they run on a, say, 200MHz machine, but in reality those games are unplayable on such a system.

As a graphician I love good graphics and vice versa. Also if the goal is to make a game that look realistic and has a movie-like feel to it, the graphics need to look good enough. Taking those factors into account, we just ended up having a certain level of detail - something we felt wasn't too much and was still lo-end enough to for the masses. And hey, advanced grapics is cool!

And what it comes to games in general, no, I don't think they're too demanding on the system - I'd put the blame more on companies manufacturing computers still selling too lo-end machines just to make more profit, like what's with the thing you can still buy computers with 64 megs of memory on a day memory doesn't practically cost anything.

13: It is said now that Max Payne is out on the shelves, Remedy will now help out 3Drealms in finishing their upcoming game Duke Nukem Forver. Is this ture, and if so, what will you be helping them out with?

This is the first time I hear such a rumor - which means it has no base in reality; still fun to see what kinda odd things people come up with.

14: What lies in the close future for Remedy? Will you start working on a new Max Payne game?

Currently we're making tutorials for our editors (namely MaxED) and giving out support to the community - also helping out with the console versions of Max Payne. We'll be speccing out our next project some time in the near future - nothing clear on that yet.

15: If you could describe Max Payne with one word, what would it be?

Style

16: As a closure, is there anything you would like to say to the gamers out there?

With all due respect to Valve; People, stop playing CS and make something with your lives - now would be a good time to show us what you can do, so pick up MaxED and impress us. :)

What the hell?

C'mon Jason, it's good news about Max Payne we'll all be enjoying.

Anyone else care to post any multi-lingual full text and complete interviews on this message board?

-Andrew

Sure, why not--I hear copyright infringement is all the rage with those kids these days. No? Hm. Must have missed the link to the original.. Ah, well, saw it on Blue's today, so here ya go, in case you think our intrepid Ctrl+C Ctrl+V demon might have dropped a carriage return or somethin.

http://www.spelplayset.com/intervju.asp?id=16

Oh, and ob-topic: The population in AO is way, way, way down from what it was last Friday. I mean, seriously down. Like 80% less than it was.

I've never seen a fall-off like this in an MMOG in my life. Might just be a blip, but I'm not so sure.

You know, i still see AO as a viable game to play... it might take a few more months to balance it and whatnut... who knows i might actually quit DAoC at one point to try some AO... but anyway, i still prefer fantasy so its highly unlikely? I'm still kind of taking a chance with DAoC based on word of mouth alone... im sure ill hate it when i start getting into it, just like EQ! but i really just wanted to try out a new fantasty mmrpg... i hope the RvR isnt so leet like uberguilds in EQ were... but i have a feeling it will be. but one thing i like about DAoC is the lack of twinking code and the idea that anybody can participate in RvR... and you never lose a level when dying... stuff like that makes DAoC very interesting to me.

Bill, are you going back to AO ever? Theres always the chance that Funcom can make AO good ... though I've read it gets dimmer every day it seems.

etc

"So anyway, I'll be seeing you in Hybernia, Mtkafka, it's the realm the two of us and a few of my old EQ guide mates are planning on. "

Hey maybe we can group up if we join the same server! Same here, most of the people i knew from EQ are joining up as Hibernia as well... cool!

etc

"and ob-topic:"

What does this word mean, my friend? I am glad to share with you, but sorry that my post was so long and filled the space for Bill. There is a lot to say about Max Payne! But sometimes to say less can mean even more and I'm sure that the things you say are important and mean something to someone else too.

Greetz

mtkafka:
"Bill, are you going back to AO ever? Theres always the chance that Funcom can make AO good ... though I've read it gets dimmer every day it seems."

There's always the chance they could fix it, yes. There's also always a chance I could be struck by lightning, too. I'd place odds on the latter before the former. It's clear Funcom is in way way WAY over their heads by this point, and, lacking divine intervention... I just don't know. I really really don't. They launch in Europe today (or yesterday, depending on where you are), but aside from the initial spike, I don't think that'll be enough to save 'em.

Because, y'see, the game still doesn't work. I'm not talking about balancing issues or whatever, either; I'm talking about "This game will not stay running for more than about two hours" not working.

We'll see.

Johan:
""and ob-topic:"

What does this word mean, my friend?"

It's a shortcut for "Obligatory on-topic post". Back in the days of heavily moderated forums, if you posted off-topic in a thread, you'd tack on something on-topic at the end, prefaced with "ob-topic" so you wouldn't have your post moderated away. Guess I'm too old for the 'net any more. :)

"Guess I'm too old for the 'net any more. :)"

Ha's! Probably so, my friend!

Greetz

"Guess I'm too old for the 'net any more. :)"

LOL! Maybe I am too young! It's easier to understand shortcuts in your first language, I think. I've not ever found the link for placing new messages, so some Max Payne news or otherwise stunning news will sometimes be placed in occurring posts by me. I apologise for that. But I do think that the Max Payne interview with the teammembers was OnT because of the similar nature of the complaints for and against the game. Too long, too short, too much bugs, too much, too much!!!

Greetz

Johan:

"I've not ever found the link for placing new messages, so some Max Payne news or otherwise stunning news will sometimes be placed in occurring posts by me."

This is the list of formatting commands (opens in a new window):

http://www.quartertothree.com/boards/board-formatting.html

If you just insert a full URL, the board will automatically convert it to a clickable link for you. Hope that helps. :)

---

Quote:

""and ob-topic:"

What does this word mean, my friend?"

It's a shortcut for "Obligatory on-topic post".

---

---

Quote:

If you just insert a full URL, the board will automatically convert it to a clickable link for you.

---

Murph:
"You sure 'bout that? I mean, I see that you just had a link and all, but...I thought you had to do the whole back-slash-link{} thing...(And I type 'back-slash' so as not to actually have the formatting try to create a link.)

I didn't know that..."

I used to think so as well, but I just tried it to see if it'd work in preview, and it did, so... :) It defaults to "\ topurl", though, so if you want a new window or whatever, you'll have to change it in preview.

I haven't played a MMORPG yet and I was thinking about getting into AC. Anyone here play this. And has anyone seen the new version yet? I heard it's suspossed to come out soon. Oh, Planetside looks awesome, but is this going to be on par with AC, EQ, AO, WW2 and UO? Is it going to a persistent on line world for FPS fans?

This issue has brought to my mind to cancel my UO account. I had it for years and forgotten! They are now controlling the AO message boards. It makes me sad to say that Funcom of Norway have really screwed the porch. I will cancel this account too. I will be sad to see my soldier gone. His name is Gunnar. I thought Americans will like this joke in many languages!

Greetz

"screwed the porch"

Actually, Johan, this was the joke from your post that I really enjoyed. It makes for an odd mental image... :)

-Tom

Thank you for the nice thing to say. But did I not make up the phrase? I believed it was an American saying, similar to the Finnish saying that can be a translation of "missed the door." It is meaning to suggest something like what young virgins do. Am I wrong?

Greetz

Ha ha -- it's "screwed the pooch," as in dog, if you really didn't know. Screwing a porch sounds even worse, though.

Now as to screwing and young virgins and missing the door, well, I probably have a dirty mind, but that's open to wide intrepretation.

It's like my sister-in-law who likes cute homilies and has them up all over her house. On her kitchen door she has a message that reads, "Back door guests are best." Needless to say, a few of us got a good chuckle out of that when she wasn't around.

"Back door guests are best."

My mother put this above our back door while I was away at college. Pretty hilarious.

Actually I prefer "screwed the porch". :-)

Reminds me of my wife asking me to "do the dishing" - ie. wash the dishes.

She is Japanese and comes out with some classic Engrish lines sometimes. :-)

Benjamin Mawhinney said:
> I haven't played a MMORPG yet and I was thinking about getting into AC. Anyone here play this.

me - i play the 'Leafcull' server

> And has anyone seen the new version yet? I heard it's suspossed to come out soon.

no-one has really seen the 'new version' yet, but we (players) who skim the AC 'fanboi' sites pretty much know what it's going to have: {limited} housing is the big addition to the game, some updated graphics in the *NEWER* areas of the game (read: more textures, more polygons), some new creatures, a new island to explore, vaguely re-hashed storyline/events of sorts.

if nothing else, it's going to be the cheapest MMORPG to get into at this point: the 'expansion' includes the whole game (as it should), so you can just start out with it... for $20. it's got 1 month of 'free' play; monthly fee beyond that is $10/mo.

i suppose it's worth mentioning that to activate / play the game at all, you have to use the code they give you for the 1 free month, which also requires you to enter a (perhaps even your own) credit card #...nothing out of the ordinary there, tho.

of course, like any 'die-hard' fan of {INSERT NAME OF FAVORITE MMORPG HERE}, i have {INSERT NAME OF UPCOMING EXPANSION FOR ABOVENAMED GAME HERE} on pre-order. :)

i've played the game since the early beta days, and i'm still loving it after all this time, DESPITE the drudges (pillowheads) that Mark so despises, be it for their graphics/sounds, or his newbie chars that fall prey to them. ;)

- mike - *not* purina newbie chow -

I think I'll start giving out those "Back Door Guests" signs as presents, just to see who puts them up.

There was an entry in the Signals catalog a few years ago where they were selling a shirt that said, "I can't even THINK straight!" It had a picture of a middle-aged woman wearing it, and it had some wacky blurb about feeling harried and busy & needing that shirt. That brought a lot of chuckles around our house.