The attack yesterday, specifically in NY, really was disturbingly effective. I winced when I heard Tom Clancy describe it as "beautifully executed". But I suppose he was right.

The World Trade Center was an ideal target: two of the largest structures in the world, symbols of American prosperity, positioned side by side. Hit the first one so you know all eyes, videocameras, and live news feeds are trained on it. Then hit the second one when everyone is watching, when everyone will see what you've done. Your deed will then be played over and over again, from a hundred different angles, for years afterwards. You have achieved infamy and, with it, immortality.

Think of the images indelibly burned into our heads. The Zapruder film of Kennedy's assassination. The Challenger exploding. Rodney King's beating. More terrible than all these is the surreal and outrageous image of United Airlines flight 175 flying into the side of Two World Trade Center.

In a way, no matter what we do, the terrorists have already won.

-Tom

That final thought was what kept me up all night saying over and over again, "I wish this had never happened. I wish this had never happened." Knowing they were watching the same images I was, and rejoicing. Feeling so helpless. Imagining what those passengers must have felt like, and feeling the same.

Watching the buildings go down, over and over again, and knowing that for some moment of time they had won. And wishing in spite of how unreasonable it sounds, that it had never happened.

-Christien

That was very well put Tom.

If the terrorists truly believe they have won by committing this act, I cannot comprehend why anyone would desire to win the vengence and hatred of an entire nation. The act has cheapened their life to the point that we will have few moral qualms in taking it. I can't even pretend to understand.

Jesus Tom. Not that I don't agree with you, but I'm surprised you would post this message. You've got a real gift for words: you're insightful and articulate. But why you would want to post such a dreadful message? Whether it's true or not is--on some level--beside the point.

I guess I'm waiting for someone who is good with words to snap into action and give me something to hold onto, not another thing to reel from.

Or something. Not that you're responsible for propping up my morale, mind you.

Look--I regret the previous post because it came off sounding wrong.

I guess what I meant to say is it would be nice if someone really gifted could articulate this in a way that gave me somehting to hold onto. I'm just frustrated because I can't seem to find it in myself to write it. Bah. I'll just go lurk now.

I would not say win.

First, what has terrorism ever won? The only time it has been effective that I can think of was the beirut bombing of the marine base and our retreat. Otherwise it may have made people aware of a group or a struggle, but what did it do for the cause? If it killed americans and that was enough, then they have a lot more killing to do before they won.

For their own islamic views - is this a victory? Sure,radicals will be happy but how many people will this turn away in disgust? How many splinter groups will form?

And for them to win, we must lose. We haven't lost. But we can 'lose' if people overreact. people still need to buy plane tickets, book a vaction this week, were you thinking of buying stocks? There is no better time than now. Don't hoard your money and errode consumer confidence, spend it, buy the TV you wanted this weekend.

Get out of the house today, talk to your neighbors, talk to strangers, people are more open now than I have ever seen them. Take this time and national feeling and use it. As a nation we can stop them from winning, we can't stop them from having shocked us, they succeeded there, but seriously, we can stop them from winning. When things start normalizing this week, go back to what you were doing and continue but continue now with a purpose that you aren't going to let this stop us and they can't win. It is not only the military that can strike back.

Chet

"it would be nice if someone really gifted could articulate this in a way that gave me somehting to hold onto. I'm just frustrated because I can't seem to find it in myself to write it. Bah. I'll just go lurk now."

Yeah, that was what the president was supposed to give you last night Tim. Historically speaking of course.

And Chet's right. People are very friendly out there today. Especially if you head out to give blood. There's something to hold onto right there.

-Andrew

I was just reacting to Tom Clancy's observation that yesterday's events were "beautifully executed". But Tim and Chet's messages are both good points.

I guess a loaded term like 'win' isn't really helpful here. It implies the game is over. Perhaps it might be better to simply note that the terrorists got exactly what they wanted.

What is their goal? Assuming we're talking about Osama Bin Laden's group, their goal is to glorify God by striking against evil. To gain converts. To destabilize and demoralize the Western influence that opposes and pollutes Islamic rule.

Did they succeed? In their hearts, I suspect they believe they have glorified God. And their actions will be enormously popular among radical Muslims and factions like the Palestinians.

However, I believe whatever instability they caused -- deaths, the FAA groundings, closed financial markets -- are just short-term. The longer term effect will be unity, not just in the US, but around the world. With this unity will come resolve. Perhaps military power. A stronger commitment, worldwide, to oppose terrorism, to impose the rule of law. More pressure on Syria, North Korea, the Taliban.

The United States no longer has the luxury of its enemies being oceans away. We no longer have the luxury of fighting fights that are ours only when we want them to be. We can't just decide when we want in or out, like we did in the World Wars, in Vietnam, in the Persian Gulf. We're in it now, as sure as England under Hitler's V-1s.

As Casper Weinberger said at the close of the Cold War and the demise of the Soviet Union, "We have slain a great dragon and now face a jungle with a bewildering variety of poisonous snakes".

Welcome to the jungle.

-Tom

At the simplest level the terrorist's job is to create terror. Regardless of the reasons, or the "greater goals" beyond that, creating and furthering terror in those they consider enemies is one of their very definitions.

In that way they succeeded. There is no way around that. No matter how we try to dress it, they succeeded. No matter how we may claim that freedom still rings or that we will all unite or that we will not be cowed, nor deterred, in the goals of our democracy, we suffered a loss yesterday. No words of comfort, no matter how well written, can change this.

I'm not saying forever, and perhaps "win" is indeed the wrong word, but whether we like it or not they did succeed yesterday. At least for a time.

-Christien

Ugh - I have to reject such a defeatist outlook. In my view, if we change our lives and sacrifice some personal liberties because of their acts, then they have won. I'm cautiously ooptimistic about the outcome of this "battle". This time, they didn't grasp the magnitude of their error. Large scale US involvement could spell the end of Mideastern terrorism.

>You have achieved infamy and, with it, immortality.

I heard an interesting report from a terrorism expert, saying that ten years ago 80% of all terrorist acts had multiple terrorist groups claim responsibility, almost immediately. Now, it's less than 40%.

The reason is because their audience used to be the rest of the world - they wanted to gain infamy and immortality to make their organization feared and respected and their cause known.

Today, most terrorists' only audience is god. They don't claim responsiblity, they don't want the notoriety, because as long as god knows, that's good enough.

Sobering.

Yes, they succeeded. The terrorists flying those planes may be the single greatest personal mass-murderers in history.

I don't remember anything from when I read the Koran about attacking and killing helpless people for the glory of God. Tom's right, and we shouldn't bark at him about it. These guys accomplished their aim brilliantly. But the price is only beginning to be paid. In the end, if we are determined and strong, what they will have done here is started the process of their own destruction. This is no night club or office building they destroyed. It was a wonder of the world, and filled with thousands of people with lives to live and stories to tell.

True, they may have already won, if this is the immortality they craved. We just need to make sure that this was a battle, and not the war. We need to take this thing and make the world better for the sacrifice. My father talks that way about World War 2. I hope I'm not sounding too selfish when I say that I'm sorry to finally really understand what he was talking about.

I think the terrorists were successful beyond even their wildest dreams. I wonder if their ultimate aim was to actually bring down the buildings or to simply start a terrible fire ?

Did they know such damage would bring down both Trade Centres ?

Changing subject - this event has affected so many people around the world. We have received news here that 3 Australian's are now confirmed dead, 58 are missing, and another 200 who worked in the WTC are unaccounted for.

A terrible, terrible tragedy.

---

Quote:

An Adelaide industrial advocate is feared to be the first of many Australian casualties among the victims of yesterday's terrorist attacks.

Mr Andrew Knox, 29, worked on the 103rd floor of tower one in the World Trade Centre and was on the phone when the plane struck, shortly before 9am.

"Andrew had been on the phone to his boss at the time of impact and the phone went dead," his parents said last night. He has not been heard from since.

---

"we can 'lose' if people overreact"

Good point, Chet. You too Bub. It helps to think there is something I can do, even if it's just holding steady and doing what I planned to do yesterday. My wife and I had seriously considered cancelling all the family trips we have scheduled for the holidays (flights back East and San Jose). Chet's point is something I am eager to discuss with my wife.

"I was just reacting to Tom Clancy's observation"

And I knew this on some level, so I posted the second message. Didn't mean to single you out, Tom. I'm sorry if it felt that way.

Like everyone else, I've pondered the impact of this act. Yesterday my thoughts were that the terrorists had won, they demonstrated their ability to reach across the ocean.

Today, listening to Bush's statement, as well as those of others such as Colin Powell, I think they may have made a huge strategic mistake. As long as terrorism was something relatively remote, we never resolved to put the full might of the country against it. Listening to Bush today, and comments I heard from folks behind the scenes who related how totally "angry and focused" he has become, listening to the voice of the nation, I think the terrorist have woken the dragon. It has always been a marvel of world history as to what this nation can accomplish when it becomes completely dedicated and focused. Whether it is sending a man to the moon or fighting a war, America's power and capabilities when focused are truly awesome.

They can hide, but not forever. We will be focused and patient. The comment that their safe harbors will not always be safe is a message to those allowing Bin Ladin to hide within their borders.

The dragon has been prodded awake, and it is pissed. If we truly declare war on the folks behind this, and dedicate our full might and muscle and technology and intelligence in an unrelenting manner, this will not only be a sad day for America, but perhaps, just perhaps, a day that marked the beginning of the hammer truly coming down on these cretins.

Did you see the insurance companies agreed to wave the no terrorism clause? That will cost us all money, but I will pay it and not mind.

For flights, the airlines have already asked bush for money if they face a slump. Not to be an opportunist, but flight prices will probably drop. I am taking my $300 take return check I got today and buying plane tickets next week.

I have money in my 401k that is sitting uninvested because I have a knack for picking only loser stocks or even funds. I am going to stick that back in the market tomorrow, its now a small disgraceful amount because of my bungling, but really this can't be worse than most of my other picks. Doubleclick... yeah...

While I don't like bush, I think he is the right president for this. He may not be able to articulate his thoughts, and he may seem like a petty man at times- but that little bitchy not going to let anyone get the better of him sniping is going to fit this situation well. I don't think he will make the mistakes his daddy made.

Chet

"They can hide, but not forever. We will be focused and patient."

Yeah, but look at how unsuccessful the Israelis and the British have been dealing with terrorists. They don't go away. When you kill one, you foster the anger and hatred that creates another to take his place.

No doubt, it's much tougher to fight someone who doesn't come out and fight. It's surely impossible to eradicate terrorism, as long as there's one fanatic willing to wear a bomb under his jacket. The question is what can you do to destroy a well organized organization like Bin Ladin's if you throw every resource we have against it in an unrelenting manner. I believe that many of the European terrorist organizations were fairly effectively destroyed. If you can reduce the terrorists to the isolated pockets of amateurs you can prevent most of the major operations like yesterday's.

Mark,
As to how to get rid of terrorists effectively.
The only ways through history has been to completely eliminate there supporter base. This has been done 2 ways. Altering society to meet their demands and running long term hearts and minds coampaigns sometimes over generations. This is difficult where direct influence on the societies in question is not possible.

The quick alternative, as used by the romans, mongols, germans, french and russians has been to eliminate the supporter base in a none shall be spared, 'salt the earth and make it unliveable' way.

I believe the later is impossible to carry out for the Us and it still remain the US. So I believe the first needs to be tried. Now of course that method does not stop short term targeted retribution as well.

I think a 1000+ casualty event in some other countries would push them to option 2 but for the US to remain what it is that is not a real option.

http://www.mcdev.com/america2.jpg

I think that's destined to become the "official poster" of 9/11/01

It just occured to me... wasn't hitting a building with an airliner originally part of the Harris-Klebold post Columbine plan?

What if the terrorists WANT us up to our necks in blood over in the Middle East? What if they want us there, so that the world is polarized between the Muslims and Christians, etc., etc.? Think about it... They know that we have hawks in power. They know we are going to want to start a ground war. Then we would be playing into their hands by turning this into the sort of indiscriminate Jihad they want. We move in there and fight them on their own home ground: Vietnam 2001.

"I think that's destined to become the "official poster" of 9/11/01"

At any other time I would have asked: "What movie is that from?"

Now the line has been blurred and we're all living in that movie... a movie where the director isn't going to call "Cut!" and where the cast won't be brushing off the ash and dust and walking away for lunch at the canteen. Hollywood isn't going to give us a happy ending and the end credits will be an unbearable list of the dead and missing.

"I guess I'm waiting for someone who is good with words to snap into action and give me something to hold onto, not another thing to reel from."

Will Kipling do?

Hymn of Breaking Strain

The careful text books measure
(Let all who build beware!)
The load, the shock, the pressure
Material can bear.
So, when the buckled girder
Lets down the grinding span,
The blame of loss, or murder,
Is laid upon the man.
Not on the Stuff -- the Man!


But in our daily dealing
With stone and steel, we find
The Gods have no such feeling
Of justice toward mankind.
To no set gauge they make us, --
For no laid course prepare --
And presently o'ertake us
With loads we cannot bear.
Too merciless to bear.


The prudent text-books give it
In tables at the end --
The stress that shears a rivet
Or makes a tie-bar bend --
What traffic wrecks macadam --
What concrete should endure --
But we, poor Sons of Adam,
Have no such literature,
To warn us or make sure!


We hold all Earth to plunder --
All Time and Space as well --
Too wonder-stale to wonder
At each new miracle;
Till, in mid-illusion
Of Godhead 'neath our hand,
Falls multiple confusion
On all we did or planned.
The mighty works we planned.


We only of Creation
(Oh, luckier bridge and rail!)
Abide the twin-damnation --
To fail and know we fail.
Yet we -- by which sole token
We know we once were Gods --
Take shame in being broken
However great the odds --
The Burden or the Odds.


Oh, veiled and secret Power
Whose paths we seek in vain,
Be with us in our hour
Of overthrow and pain;
That we -- by which sure token
We know thy ways are true --
In spite of being broken,
Because of being broken,
May rise and build anew.
Stand up and build anew!

The reason we must put a stop to bin Laden and the thing that makes him so much more dangerous than any other terrorist we've ever seen is his money. They estimate he has 200 million dollars at his disposal. That's probably more cash than all of Afghanistan.

This is why he is the top suspect. He hates us and he has the financial resources to pay smart people to do his bidding. Most terrorists are of the frugal, undereducated and underfunded type. Someone with the resources of bin Laden is ultimately far more dangerous than maybe even Saddam Hussein.

This may be the one instance where you can cut off the head of the organization and the rest of the body dies instantaneously.

--Dave

"This may be the one instance where you can cut off the head of the organization and the rest of the body dies instantaneously. "

Only if you get the money at the same time. Like you said, he recruits smart people.

These terrorists aren't fighting for anything. They are anarchists, murderers, cowards ... whatever slime we can use to describe them.

They may have some preconceived notions of holy obligation of killing murdering destroying the innocent, but in reality its a psycholigcal wasteland of nihilism. I dont really see them being religious in any way. They may think that what they are doing is something noble but in reality its chaotic hatred. They are blind to hate. Hate for the United States and/or any other people not of there ways.

Anyway, this is under the impression that it is Bin Laden (most likely)...

What a pointless waste of destruction and death. I just hope we arent consumed with as much hate as these little boys are.

etc

My family has a trip planned to LA next Thursday. I have to visit a customer on Friday, and we planned to go to Universal Studios Saturday and Disney Sunday and Monday - staying at their hotel and everything. We've been watching movies with a "going to Hollywood" theme the last couple of weeks on our weekly movie night - Pee Wee's Big Adventure and The Muppet Movie (any more recommendations for this Friday?).

As you might imagine, we're pretty nervous about it. Today my wife said "We're not going", though it was more of a question than the final word.

It's almost satirical, but Chet's comments have got me thinking that we need to buck up and go to fucking Disneyland and spend lots of American money and have a great time and eat so much junk the puke will be rainbow colored.

It is quite likely some passengers and/or pilots of the 4th plane deliberately accepted the certain death of ditching their plane. The guy who called his wife to say goodbye certainly knew what he had chosen. I feel some shame for being afraid to take a small vacation.

I feel this attack was a reaction to the fact that 10% of the World's population owns 80% of all wealth (not sure of that statistic), if you live a life in prosperity, you don't feel a need to throw it away for a god. The World Trade Center is a symbol of the system which makes that statistic (if it's correct, I don't remember) true.

What religion teaches the slaughter of innocents, though? That's not acceptable -- I don't care who you worship.

Whats that supposed to mean? No, they just hate our guts, we represent SATAN in there eyes. They hate everything we represent. And if some of those middle eastern Oil Fatcats had a little more compassion... maybe just maybe they'd give a cent to their fellow brethren and then maybe they wouldnt feel so cheated. I dont believe that a rich kid like Bin Laden hates our wealth, when the guy himself comes from a millionaire family.

Yeah, we're not the most perfect country in the world, but we sure as hell do a lot more good than China or Russia. Last time I heard we GIVE China and Russia money!

etc

"What if they want us there, so that the world is polarized between the Muslims and Christians"

Yes, that would be bad; however, this side of the globe also has it's religious fanatics, with it's own special knee-jerk reactions to the phrase "Armageddon".

"comments have got me thinking that we need to buck up and go to fucking Disneyland and spend lots of American money and have a great time and eat so much junk the puke will be rainbow colored."

Do it. Otherwise the terrorists will have won.

They want you to be scared, they want you to cower at home.

Go, enjoy yourself, and live free.

"Will Kipling do? Hymn of Breaking Strain"

Thanks, Todd. That was good of you to post.

"And for them to win, we must lose. We haven't lost. But we can 'lose' if people overreact. people still need to buy plane tickets, book a vaction this week, were you thinking of buying stocks?"

I am going on vacation on Martha's Vineyard this weekend, through next Wednesday. My wife and I aren't changing those plans. I haven't spent much money this week, however, aside from a donation to the Red Cross through Amazon.

"It's almost satirical, but Chet's comments have got me thinking that we need to buck up and go to fucking Disneyland and spend lots of American money and have a great time and eat so much junk the puke will be rainbow colored."

The only thing that would give me pause right now is thinking of the headache's involved in flying. The airports are really going to be a mess for a few weeks.

"I guess I'm waiting for someone who is good with words to snap into action and give me something to hold onto, not another thing to reel from."

Here's a pretty good editorial from the Miami Herald. Not sure how much the sentiment will actually bear out, since the people we'd really like to make pay are all dead now, but it feels good to read it. At least it affirms who we are, even if we don't know who they are.

http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm

-Christien (Amanpour)

A friend sent this to me. I apologize for the length of the post, but do not have a link for it. I thought it was a really good thing that this guy did.

----------------
> The following from a CANADIAN newspaper:
>
> America: The Good Neighbor
>
> Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
> television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant
> remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
>
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
> generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
>
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
> of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars

and

> forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
> even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
>
> When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
> propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
>
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries
> in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
> Tornadoes. Nobody helped.
>
> The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
> discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
> the decadent, war- mongering Americans.
>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
> erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
> Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?

Why

> do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
>
> Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on

the

> moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
> about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
> technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times -
> and safely home again.
>
> You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
> window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
> are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
> home to spend here.
>
> When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
> age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
> and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
> Both are still broke.
>
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
> people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced

to

> the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
> the San Francisco earthquake.
>
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned

tired

> of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose

at

> The lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
> not one of those."
>
> Stand proud, America!"
>

Nice.
Thanks Kazz.

Also, I saw on the news something very stirring. The British Royal Guard Band (or whatever it's official title is) was playing the Star Spangled Banner to an assembled crowd. Many were in tears and Jennings looked affected when he came back. How remarkable. Our proud anthem being played by them. It's good to have friends.

-Andrew

Kazz,

That is actually a radio broadcast from 1973 entitled "The Americans" which Gordon Sinclair did for his radio show "Let's Be Personal" on CFRB Radio. It was later released as a record as it became so popular.

The sentiment certainly still applies today, though.

P.S. thanks, google

http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/sinclair.htm

"Also, I saw on the news something very stirring. The British Royal Guard Band (or whatever it's official title is) was playing the Star Spangled Banner to an assembled crowd. Many were in tears and Jennings looked affected when he came back. How remarkable. Our proud anthem being played by them. It's good to have friends."

Just to give credit where credit is due, it was the Colstream Guards Band. When it comes to stirring ceremony, nobody does it like the British.

>Pee Wee's Big Adventure and The Muppet Movie (any more recommendations for this Friday?

geez, nothing that could best those two. Those are two of my faves.

>I am going on vacation on Martha's Vineyard this weekend, through next Wednesday. My wife and I aren't changing those plans.

Amen to that. We've given the terrorists a couple days of our lives, and several thousands gave (unwittingly) all the rest of their days. It's far more than they deserve, and they get no more.

Picture this... that bin Laden has a suitcased size nuclear weapon ready for detonation... we are ready to retaliate and he gives a private message to Bush "any harm done to me or my group, and one of your cities is destroyed in nuclear attack." and he gives evidence of having one.

In this scenario what can we do to retaliate? anything? or what if he just detonates one, and says he will detonate another one if we retaliate? can we really do anything then?

if not now, this is a possibility in the future. I mean India and Pakistan are known to have detonated nuclear weapons.... the future is grim in a high tension world.

etc

In his classic science fiction novel "The Stars My Destination", Alfred Bester describes a psychokinetic substance called PyrE-- so powerful that a single grain of it can blow up a house. And all that is needed for it to blow up is for anyone to just think at it and want it to explode. The hero of the story has to decide whether to keep it locked up and secret or to spread it around the planet leaving the fate of the world in the hands and thoughts of every single person on earth.

Plus the previously mentioned links:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/19990123gallucci3.asp
http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/News/Lebedbomb.html

You know, I hate terrorism, but I also hate the prospect of having global thermonuclear war even more. Fallout ho!

"Just to give credit where credit is due, it was the Colstream Guards Band. When it comes to stirring ceremony, nobody does it like the British."

I'll add my thanks to the British for the playing of our National Anthem. My immediate reaction when I saw that was to say, "Thanks, old friend." It struck me very much like when a long-time friend sees you are hurting, and goes out of their way to immediately offer condolences and their support.

It was Formula 1 practice at Monza yesterday, and as a lifelong racing fan, I found their tribute particularly touching. They had a minute of silence for the victims - all of the teams gathered in their pit areas, cars lined up, and stood silently with hands clasped. I don't think I've ever seen an occupied, silent pit row before. Also, Ferrari stripped all advertising logos from their cars, and added a black nosepiece for the race.