The first item of news about the WTC crashes that I heard that didn't involve the intersection of buildings and planes was "Gasoline projected $3.00 per gallon tomorrow!"

Well, it's up to $1.89 here already.

The most fascinating things about this are:
1. It's a wonderful time for our fellow men to ass-rape us at the gas pump. At a time when we all need to concern ourselves with the implications of foreign aggression, our own oil men decide that it's a fine dandy time to scapegoat the middle-east and jack the price of gas up and line their pockets. Please, can we line these assholes up and shoot them?

2. I live in a small town. We have, in this wonderful burg, 3 gas stations and one red-light. Well, since about 5pm there's been a 2-hour wait to get to a gas pump. The cars are lined up from the gas pumps, to the red light about 1/2 a mile away. I needed a pack of smokes, so I ventured forth to see this display of utter human stupidity and herd mentality at work. I haven't seen lines at a gas pump like that since the Carter administration. There were people there with cans, buckets, and drums. Crazy. Quick! Everybody get a bunch of gas now, because they're going to forget how to make it tomorrow!

3. The local K-mart. If you don't own a shotgun, rifle, or ammo don't bother going to get one right now. The local K-mart's sporting goods section is pretty bare. My buddy stopped there on his way to my place to buy some stuff, and gave up once he saw the lines. It seems everyone who isn't lined up at a gas pump is there buying a rifle, camping supplies, a coleman stove and lantern.

4. The local fire dept. was talking about a call they received about "regional blackouts" that may be occuring. They're talking, apparently, about instituting some state-wide blackout in Ohio. God knows why. I can't think of a better invitation for rioting, looting, and anarchy in the streets. If you want to make a push for martial-law, this would be a good thing to try, I guess. Hrm... owning a shiny new shotgun doesn't seem so bad after all. Pure rumor and speculation, of course - but why are people even talking about this shit? It's not like we've got Chinese tanks rolling up on Venice beach already.

5. People are stupid, see 1-4 above.

1) The oil companies have stated that supply will not change and froze their prices today. Blame your local evil gas station owners.
2) People are dumb.
3) See 2.
4) Again.

---

Quote:

5. People are stupid, see 1-4 above.

---

In other news, the local Ace Hardware in my area had plenty of American flags on the shelf.

One of the local news announcers said that after Pearl Harbor what people did was to hang an American flag out front and leave the porch light on through the night. WW2 was way before my time, so I have no idea if that's true, but it feels good to have a way to show solidarity, support. Some of our neighbors have done the same. This is in the Seattle area.

Are any of you guys seeing this in your areas? I hope it catches on.

I can't shake this feeling that the world is spinning out of control. It's not just this -- it's the spate of mass murders in the U.S. in the last few weeks, the destruction of the environment that seems inevitable, the economy going into a tailspin, etc. It seems like the world is just one big pressure cooker and the lid's about to blow. How long before terrorists like Bin Laden figure out how to build biological or nuclear weapons?

Don't blame the people. I went out to get beer - because Murray & Sons is officially closed tomorrow- all employees have the day off.

When we were out we could see the more popular stations raising prices, my girlie pointed out - I don't want to pay $4 for gas tomorrow - don't open that beer - lets fill up the cars.

She tends to be right on these things so we got gas. Having gone thru hurricane andrew in New orleans - to make it palatable we have a set of staples - you need beer, corn, hotdogs, water and toilet paper. You can last a long time on those staples. When the power goes out just switch to corn. water and beer. Don't forget that liquid wheat food group, learn to drink it warm.

Chet

Looking for someone to kill?

Try the webmaster at http://www.ihatenetscape.com

[quote]
HOLLY FUCKING SHIT!

I was typing this up.. then my dad just shouted out to come and watch the TV!..

two planes have kamikazeed into the World trade center in NY..FUUUUUUUCK YEAH!..apparently as I keep watching they both have been hyjacked which makes it even better..

down with the US! and imperialism! (dont mention the motive of this site... its not a microsoft supporting site mind u)

Go watch the news.. its going ot be the talking point of people for at least a month.. U HEARD IT HERE FIRST!..
[/quote]

Oh yeah... in the ultimate in televised ignorance, CSPAN1 is running open phone lines this morning. Excellent.

There's been a constant stream of nonsense and evidence of the deficiency of public education. Some guy called in claiming to be Michael Jackson, did a good impersonation too until he started rambling and they hung up on him. Then the "Cosmic Consciousness" lady called and said that we should all meditate, and direct love and white light to the terrorists in order to heal them. A couple of women who sounded like Gladys Kravits called in to say that it's entirely our fault because we support these terrorists by buying their oil - and why can't we make cars that don't use oil? I mean, we can put a man on the moon, but we can't make a car that doesn't support terrorism?

No comment.

"How long before terrorists like Bin Laden figure out how to build biological or nuclear weapons? "

This is an awkward thought at best: if terrorists see that this kind of unconventional (yet conventional) attack is effective, is there some hope that they would forgo the attempts to make chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons?

This is only wishful thinking.

Rama

Well, I'm pretty sure that Bin Ladin isn't reading this message board, so I'll offer a thought...

An attack like this gets the focus of attention, meaning you could potentially get away with "other things" while you've got a distraction. There are a great number of agents that could be introduced into the water supply that would render the Manhattan tap water unusable, if not outright deadly. If you think there's terror and panic now - well, you ain't seen nothing yet if that were to go down.

Also, I expected to see something happen on the west coast as well. Thankfully it did not, but it would have been a tremendous double-whammy to have this happen in LA at the same time. Maybe a handful of car bombs at various state capitols as well, just to ice the cake and give that "We aren't just interested in the big apple, be afraid everywhere!" terror.

Now, we just have to wait until our own homegrown crackpots and crazies get done with their string of bomb threats and such. The post office in Canton had a nice bomb threat call-in yesterday. I'm glad I'm sick today and have an excuse for not being there.

On gas prices...

My state's attorney general came on TV last night to remind vendors that price gouging is subject to fines of $10,000 per violation (violation = every customer you sell price gouged gas to). Local prosecutors have also came out and stated that any price gouging will prosecuted. Vendors don't want to come between a politician and an issue that will help them get reelected. I believe prices will remain market driven.

-DavidCPA

I live in a big metro area (a suburb of Detroit) and there seem to be hundreds of gas stations within 10 minutes of my house. Of the 4 I drive past on the way to the freeway, all but one had raised their prices 20 cents from yesterday.

The one that didn't raise his prices is owned by a very friendly gentleman of arabic descent.

I heard about $5+ per gallon prices in parts of the country last night. Has anyone heard about reaction from Middle eastern countries to this attack? I saw Arafat on TV, looking stunned, denouncing the attack and seeming perfectly horrified by it. Sadly, the next shot was of Palestinians in the streets, honking horns, flying flags, smiling from ear to ear and rejoicing in our dead. It was enough to make me wonder in a hurt moment if Isreal would like us to solve their "little West bank problem" by carpet-bombing it into a parking lot. Bastards.

"How long before terrorists like Bin Laden figure out how to build biological or nuclear weapons? "

The scary thing is that they hardly need to. With all the problems in Russia, they may be able to simply buy one on the black market. That's the bigger threat, I think.

The russians already have SEVERAL warheads they cannot account for.

Thus far, 18 bomb threats in Cleveland alone today. City hall is being evacuated as I type this. They're also posting guards to protect the city's water system. (Mayor White apparently reads QT3)

Also, he has stated "we are prepared to close down any gas station in the city of cleveland that..."

---

Quote:

Sadly, the next shot was of Palestinians
in the streets, honking horns, flying flags, smiling from ear to ear and rejoicing in our dead.

---

As for poisoning the water system...

That is just not a terrorist's MO. To truly commit an effective act of terrorism you want 3 things:
1. Shock and horror.
2. Loss of life.
3. Major public exposure.

In other words for 3 they want the media to have their terrorist act as front page news. Poisoning the water supply doesn't add that shock and fear and immediate sensationalizing that bombs do. It is just that simple.

As for the general public. They are just plain ignorant. I abhor the general public and because of this I have cultivated a health misanthropic attitude towards them. Therefore when I see such brutal and effective acts of terrorism, as we witnessed yesterday in NY and DC, I am at odds with myself and struggle to explain what I feel.

On one hand I boil with anger, and feelings of retribution at the animals who would commit such barbaric and cruel acts of violence. On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad.

But sadly enough the reality is that most of the people that died yesterday were most likely not from that "general public" group of people I hate so much, and therefore we have suffered a great loss.

Regardless, I will await with baited breath on the edge of my couch watching CNN for the footage of the fiery maelstrom that our US military will soon rain down on those who plotted against us. It is nigh time we stop waiting for those who would destroy us to fall into our laps and begin to hunt these people down like savage animals and kill them with extreme prejudice.

That is all.

Jeff

---

Quote:

On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad.

But sadly enough the reality is that most of the people that died yesterday were most likely not from that "general public" group of people I hate so much, and therefore we have suffered a great loss.

---

Quote:

"On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad."


It is exactly this sort of dehumanization of a particular class or ethnicity that allows terrorists, dictators and their eager followers to murder their fellow human beings. It is no coincidence that mass murders of civilians, whether it be of Muslims in Bosnia, Tutsis in Ruwanda, or Jews and Palastinians in the Middle East, are preceeded by these sorts of comments.

Steve

"On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad... I will await with baited breath on the edge of my couch watching CNN for the footage of the fiery maelstrom that our US military will soon rain down on those who plotted against us.

You're a fucking moron, and a complete embarrassment to all Americans. No wonder people in this world hate us, when there's simpletons like you running around spouting ill-informed gibberish and publicly announcing that you're a prejudiced imbecile.

Have a nice day.

He may very well be a moron, but you sir, are a pathetic coward, and the world needs fewer of those as well.

Quote by Steve:
"It is exactly this sort of dehumanization of a particular class or ethnicity that allows terrorists, dictators and their eager followers to murder their fellow human beings. It is no coincidence that mass murders of civilians, whether it be of Muslims in Bosnia, Tutsis in Ruwanda, or Jews and Palastinians in the Middle East, are preceeded by these sorts of comments."

Steve that was almost laughable. To pin ethnic cleansing, racism, genocide, and international terrorism on the random feelings and thoughts of anyone who may harbor misanthropic feelings is a stretch by anyone's imagination. Get real.

The people who commit the aforementioned actions have motivations that are alot more complexed and selfish in nature and bare little in common with me at all.

I am just being honest with myself. Apparently you cannot. Do not try and blame me for your ignorance and blindness to the world we live in.

"you sir, pathetic coward, and the world needs fewer of those as well"

Whatever. I'm not going to risk being baited into a prolonged debate with illogical jokers. Anger over yesterday's events is more than justified; it's mandatory for anyone with rational sensibilities.

But prejudging individuals, and belittling the violence inflicted upon those innocent individuals, is fucking offensive. The relative merits of our statements speak for themselves, regardless of our identities.

Quote:
"Steve that was almost laughable. To pin ethnic cleansing, racism, genocide, and international terrorism on the random feelings and thoughts of anyone who may harbor misanthropic feelings is a stretch by anyone's imagination."

Well, I'm not laughing. You expressed a bigoted glee at the senseless slaughter of thousands of innocent humans. I'm sure the collaborators of the hijackers had the same reaction as you. Let's take a look: You hate a certain class of people because of some bigoted elitist sense of superiority on your part. You react to their murder as a wonderful event. Exactly how are you different?

Steve

P.S. Your honesty with your supremely repulsive sensibilities does not provide you with a free pass. I can assure you that the rest of us in the "stupid masses" do not feel the same as you.

Steve, at what point did I express "bigoted glee"? I am merely observing my perception of reality and coming to grips with its meaning. If you perceive this as some "bigoted elitist sense of superiority" that is your problem, since it is now obvious you have some candyland view of the world in which you live in.

Please do yourself a favor and look up the word "misanthropic", though I doubt it will do anything to lift the fog that clouds your eyes.

Anonymouse said:
"Sqeel! Grunt! Grunt! Grunt!"

Jeff

Jeff, you're saying you really believe what you wrote, that it wasn't a joke? Man, that's really sad.

Oh, get over it. Everyone's talked at varying times about how dumb the populace is, and how it wouldn't be a big deal if half of them died, etc, etc, in a different context. Everyone declaring people who are too dumb to read warning labels deserve to die comes to mind.

"at what point did I express "bigoted glee"?

When you wrote that "any weeding of the population" of a group of individuals you've never met "can't be all bad". That's as moronic as the suicide bombers targetting a nonexistent, homogeneous group of "evil Americans".

I've always wondered why those suicide bombers, who are indoctrinated in the "glory of their sacrifice" don't just turn to mass murderers like Bin Laden and ask: "don't you want some of this glory by joining us as well?"

You're prejudging a group of individuals you don't know. At best, you just meant to be glib, and lack the maturity to realize how inappropriate and stupid your comments were. At worst, you really are a pathological idiot, incapable of realizing how warped your "perception of reality" is to rational, intelligent, decent human beings.

Tim Elhajj said:
"Jeff, you're saying you really believe what you wrote, that it wasn't a joke? Man, that's really sad."

Tim, this world is very said 99% of the the time. Don't you see it? Long ago I gave up watching the news or even reading the paper. The world is truely depressing if you look hard and long at it.

Anonymouse said:
"Oh, come here big old government and give me a big hug! I looooove you! Isn't the world just grand?! Everyone loves everyone and every life is precious and sacred. Gee, golly, I am just so damn happy!"

Anonymouse, you are a fool. You are naive and stupid if you think we live in a world where everyone loves one another and that our government "really cares" about us. I feel very sorry for you.

People around the world and in this country have put a price on life. For the last 20 years terrorists have been killing Americans and what have we done about it? Squat.

Oh, ten here. Twenty here. A hundred over there... oh wait they were soldiers, that's okay. People in this country have cared very little towards life and any meaning of it. Here in the good old US of A we'd rather shoot abortion doctors than give two shits about 17 soldiers who die in some explosion "over there" somewhere. We say, "Ooops! That's too bad. Glad it wasn't me. Now what were those powerball numbers..."

Only until now.. when the loss of life is SO great, SO startling, SO INCONVIENENT, that we give a f**k. That pisses me off and only confirms my belief about humanity.

So, go take a long drive in your garage, Anonymouse. Don't forget to roll that window down and take a deep breath.

Jeff

Quote:
"If you perceive this as some "bigoted elitist sense of superiority" that is your problem, since it is now obvious you have some candyland view of the world in which you live in. "

Jeff, reread your original post (I have copied the relevant bits below). Tell me you did not express a bigoted, elitist sense of superiority. Perhaps you could explain what your fucking point is. Are you happy on some level that thousands of people were murdered? Would it make any difference to you if the victims were of the "masses" (whatever the hell that means) or "not of the general public" (again, whatever the hell that means)?

Steve

P.S. What makes you any better than anyone else? Let me guess - because you are depressed and you play computer games.


Quote from your previous post
"As for the general public. They are just plain ignorant. I abhor the general public and because of this I have cultivated a health misanthropic attitude towards them....On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad.
But sadly enough the reality is that most of the people that died yesterday were most likely not from that "general public" group of people I hate so much, and therefore we have suffered a great loss."

While a debate on the value of human life might be interesting from a philosophical viewpoint, I find it rather distasteful given yesterday's events. Plus, the personal attacks are just uncalled for.

- Alan

Guys, Alan is talking wise here. Everyone, I think it's safe to say, has feelings about yesterday, and we may not be terribly good about how we express them today. Don't attack each other. We've had enough of that to give us a bellyful in the past day already.

Fair enough, Alan, but I need to address some obvious misrepresentations.

Am I happy thousands of people died? No. But am I sad? No. I am angered over the attack but I am not greiving nor do I feel sorrow. I did not know these people that died. How can I feel for someone I did not know? Think about it.

As for being depressed and playing video games. Such shallow attacks get you no where, but let me clarify something since you obvious do not READ posts but merely interpret them into some strange language only you understand, Steve.

I am not depressed. I said, the news and the world is depressing. In that if you dwell on it, it depresses you. Get the diff? Obviously not, but I tried.

As for you childlike view of the world I can do nothing but hope one day you grow up and start seeing the world through clearer eyes.

Jeff

"How can I feel for someone I did not know?"

It's a fairly common human trait, Jeff. It's called compassion.

-Tom

"It's a fairly common human trait, Jeff. It's called compassion."

Dig it, Jeff. Get real.

Jeff -

Your opinions and feelings are your own business. I won't label you 'evil' or some such nonsense. On the other hand, if I were trapped in that mess, I'd sure as hell hope some strangers cared enough to try and rescue me.

- Alan

"How can I feel for someone I did not know?"

You really don't know how sad that is. I don't mean that as an attack, I truly do feel for someone that feels this way.

"You are naive [delete embarrassing nonsense].

Yep, naive, since I thought when confronted by several lucid, intelligent points that demonstrated how inane and offensive your drivel was, you'd quickly come to your senses. But apparently you'll have to get the shit kicked out of you by some assholes who just didn't like your nationality, ethnicity, orientation - or felt you were just part of the "general public" that he didn't like that day - before you'll realize what a complete moron you are.

I can only speak for myself, but my thoughts:

Thousands of people who have families -- just like you and me -- went to work, like they do every day. As they were sitting there at their desks, a giant metal tube comes crashing into their offices. Explosions. Fire and smoke everywhere. 1600 degrees. The building is literally collapsing around them, and their last thoughts are of the wife that they are about to widow.

These were people just like you and me. Just. Like. You. And. Me. They were just doing their jobs. They never hurt anyone -- not that anyone could deserve this, anyway.

---

Quote:

I don't mean that as an attack, I truly do feel for someone that feels this way.

---

And, jshandorf, while I admire your honesty (it takes guts to speak so openly about a topic such as this), I mourn your humanity.

"Terrorists struck again today, causing residents of a gaming message board to lash out at each other today in a predictable case of misdirected anger and hypersensitivity to commentary."

I think there's some extremist views here on both sides that wouldn't normally apply. jshandorf is talking about feeling zero per cent sorrow for the death of strangers in New York, which is certainly one extreme. Meanwhile, everyone else is preaching full-on compassion for every single life lost.

The reality is before this event, you could turn just about ANYWHERE and hear of an unfortunate and unnecessary death, but how did it really affect us?

Few may become immensely sad, join a missionary organization and dedicate their lives to helping others. A few on the other end of the scale will feel complete apathy, almost entirely desensitized to human suffering after a lifetime of seeing vivid images of it in fictional and non-fictional media. Meanwhile, the vast majority fall somewhere between, certainly caring, possibly enough to sacrifice some of their own luxuries to help, but usually not.

To be self-righteous enough to completely condemn jshandorf's viewpoints is probably hypocritical and rooted in the guilt that nearly all of us feel at how little we do to help our suffering human brothers and sisters across the world when life in the US is pretty normal and the only disasters that occur are far, far away.

>. jshandorf is talking about feeling zero per cent sorrow for the death of strangers in New York, which is certainly one extreme...To be self-righteous enough to completely condemn jshandorf's viewpoints is probably hypocritical

Uh, no. I don't think that's what annoyed people about 'dorf's posts. It wasn't just his disappointing inability to feel compassion for people he didn't know -- that sort of "bystander mentality" may not be attractive, but as you suggested, it's also not uncommon. It's the fact that he specifically said that it could be good that people died that was so offensive. Incredibly stupid thing to say, even in jest, given the nature of Tuesday's events.

Stefan

"On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad..."

I haven't read a single post from him after this one. And why should I?

-Andrew

"I haven't read a single post from him after this one. And why should I? "

Exactly Andrew. I love simple solutions.

"I can't shake this feeling that the world is spinning out of control. It's not just this -- it's the spate of mass murders in the U.S. in the last few weeks, the destruction of the environment that seems inevitable, the economy going into a tailspin, etc. It seems like the world is just one big pressure cooker and the lid's about to blow. How long before terrorists like Bin Laden figure out how to build biological or nuclear weapons?"

Good god! Buck up, little soldier!

As long as we don't have war with China, I think things are fine, and will veer back to the course of peace, prosperity, and a chicken in every pot.

My wife (who unfortunately is stuck in San Francisco on the whole planes bit) never misses an opportunity to point out that her high school history teacher always swore up and down that we would eventually go to war with China. If we do get embroiled in a war with China-- we are really fucked.

"As for the general public. They are just plain ignorant. I abhor the general public and because of this I have cultivated a health misanthropic attitude towards them."

Exactly. You're far more intelligent and accomplished than anyone who worked in the WTC, so of course killing off all those stupid people just cleans out the idiots. You must be some kind of genius.

Bruce you don't really "read" posts do you?

I also noted:
"But sadly enough the reality is that most of the people that died yesterday were most likely not from that "general public" group of people I hate so much, and therefore we have suffered a great loss."

Which is the reality. Tell me... If those terrorists happened to smash all their planes into say... Federal Penitentiaries, would we all be so bleeding heart right now? Would we show oh so much compassion for those complete strangers? Probably not. So, my point was that while there are people in this world that are just taking up space, and a good number reside in NY IMO, odds are the majority that the terrorists killed were not from this group. Call it heartless. Call it evil. Call it what you want. I call it reality and the truth.

Jeff

Tom posted:
"How can I feel for someone I did not know?"

It's a fairly common human trait, Jeff. It's called compassion.
------------------------------------------------

Do you actually believe that? Maybe for the individual at times human compassion does exist but by large it is rare trait in this world.

Most of us show it to our love ones and friends but as you move that circle out farther and farther it diminishes rapidly to the point of non-existence.

When was the last time you saw a random act of kindness by someone? Home many times has you seen on some REAL TV show someone drowning and dozens if not hundreds of people stand by and watch until the ONE person risks his/her life to save that person.

Unless it is someone's "job" to save lives most of us pretty much care about our own and say be damned to the rest. "Better him than me" echoes in my mind at this time.

Lets not be hypocritical shall we? I am merely stating the truth as I see everyday in this society.

In fact I remember this one study a woman did on human compassion. The name escapes me but she found out that people were more inclined to help a homeless dog or cat on the street then a homeless child. When I read that, I wasn't shocked.

Jeff

"Call it heartless. Call it evil. Call it what you want. I call it reality and the truth."

Call it sad. The point you're making is that we need to break up everyone into classes and then judge who we should mourn and who we should judge as worthless and thus so much rubbish if they are killed. In other words, the people you don't like are OK to kill, you don't give a damn. Hell, it wasn't you, right? Didn't impact your ability to buy a beer and a Big Mac, so why the hell should you care? Screw 'em, just a bunch of bankers and stock brokers, right? Screw the kids who are crying all day and night because their Momma or Daddy aren't coming home - hey, they were probably just taking up space. Screw the people who's lives have been destroyed, who were making plans for the fall, talking about what they should get their kids for Christmas, screw the people who were mothers, fathers, children, little league coaches, someone's best friend, screw those people who don't really fall into your category of effecting YOUR fucking life.

I hope you're just an ignorant twelve year old who doesn't know any better and not the totally socially and emotionally retarded scum you sound like.

I wrote: "It's a fairly common human trait, Jeff. It's called compassion."

Jeff Shandorf wrote: "Do you actually believe that? Maybe for the individual at times human compassion does exist but by large it is rare trait in this world."

Bullshit. One of the things that makes us uniquely human is our capacity to sympathize with the suffering of those we don't know. People who truly lack that capacity are called sociopaths.

-Tom

"One of the things that makes us uniquely human is our capacity to sympathize with the suffering of those we don't know."

Well, that's true, but where do you draw the line? Do you sympathize so much that you would switch places with someone who was on the 85th floor of the WTC? Do you sympathize so much that you would you quit your job, and move to work full time helping these people?

I think we all sympathize, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're willing to truly _sacrifice_ for other people-- *especially* random strangers. Maybe you're as selfless as Jesus Christ, or maybe even Billy Jack, so bully for you. But the reality is that most people aren't.

To wit, donating $50 to the red cross doesn't automatically provide one with a "Get Empathy Free" card in my book.

I think that's what Jeff #2,178 was getting at, in a backward, jackass sort of way.

Where is it written that you need to feel compassion and empathy for every living human being otherwise you are a sociopath?

I have compassion for empathy for my family, loved ones, and friends but beyond that circle it is almost absent. In that, if I do not know them, never met them, I do not "feel" for them.

Tell me, Tom, do you cry and break down weeping every time you hear about some murder on the 10:00 o'clock news? No? Why not? YOU have sympathy and compassion, don't you? Apparently, it seems, for every person on the planet. Why not that person? Why is it that if one person dies, or even maybe a few more, people generally don't give two shits, but, hey, kill 5,000 and now suddenly people care. They "feel" the pain. Bullshit. If you don't sympathies for one nameless stranger you shouldn't for 20. Hell, not even 5,000.

Atwood has it right and he knows where I am coming from. If my dad was to die tomorrow, would you empathies for me? Do you really know me? Have you met my father? Maybe your father is alive and well. Why should you "feel my pain"? (Damn, Clinton).

Look at all the people that rushed out and gave blood. How many times before have you heard the federal blood bank or even your local blood bank plead for blood at other times because they are low. You did see people rushing out to donate then? But suddenly now they do. I believe they do it because they feel guilty in someway for their lack of compassion and that they are donating blood to make themselves feel better. Hell, this is starting to stray into my belief that all human actions are selfish in nature, and I bet most of you don't have the balls to even go there and admit that to yourself. With that said, a selfless act is extremely rare indeed.

BTW, Tom, most animals show more compassion for their own kind than we do, and that doesn't make them human. Quit deluding yourself.

Jeff

"Call it heartless. Call it evil. Call it what you want. I call it reality and the truth."

I call it moral relativism. Jeff, I'm sorry that the world you see is so cruel and cynical. Maybe you're just looking in the mirror too much?

Your prison example, as random as it is, cuts both ways. I'd certainly mourn the guards, the warden, the innocent family members visiting, and even the criminals who were paying their debt to society. The tragedy would still be awful, even if realtively perhaps, less so. I'd certainly still mourn the passengers on those planes, and losing four planeloads of them would still be heinous and elicit my sorrow.

"BTW, Tom, most animals show more compassion for their own kind than we do, and that doesn't make them human. Quit deluding yourself."

That isn't true actually. No more true than thinking a lion or a wolf is in any way brave.

-Andrew

"Tell me, Tom, do you cry and break down weeping every time you hear about some murder on the 10:00 o'clock news? No? Why not? YOU have sympathy and compassion, don't you?"


I think most people would at least feel sadness, or sympathy for the family if they thought about it. We don't always think about it. It is unfortunate that violent crime is as common as it is in this society, but that doesn't mean that we are exempt from compassion. Well, except for the special Jeff club.


"Apparently, it seems, for every person on
the planet. Why not that person? Why is it that if one person dies, or even maybe a few more, people generally don't give two shits, but, hey, kill 5,000 and now suddenly people care."


Who doesn't give two shits? You're speaking for you, yourself, and you? One or two deaths are a crime, or a tragedy. 5,000 murders is a crime against humanity.


"They "feel" the pain. Bullshit. If you don't sympathies for one nameless stranger you shouldn't for 20. Hell, not even 5,000."


Again, speaking for you, yourself, and you.


"Atwood has it right and he knows where I am coming from. If my dad was to die tomorrow, would you empathies for me? Do you really know me? Have you met my father? Maybe your father is alive and well. Why should you "feel my pain"? (Damn, Clinton)."


I would feel compassion if your father died, because it would make me realize how fortunate I am I to still have mine. It makes those who are still here seem much more important, as we get wrapped up in the duct tape of our daily lives.

- Raife

I never said the loss of any life isn't unnecessary and immoral. I certainly wouldn't mind living in a world where people didn't kill each other, but since that isn't reality, and in fact we kill each other on this planet at a fantastic rate I cannot possible mourn for every death.

Just because the media put it on the TV and I watched it doesn't mean I should now suddenly "feel" more for those people than I would for some other nameless poor bastard who met his/her end somewhere else.

All in all, I don't pay lip service to mourning and feeling sympathy. There is almost no way I could "feel your pain" even though Clinton seemed to be a master at it. Unless I am explicitly emotionally connected to the situation how can I "feel thier pain"? Just because those people died on national television doesn't make them any different than the 5,000 Africans that die daily for starvation and disease. I don't emotionally mourn for any of them, why should I for the terrorist victims?

I think what the problem here is that people think that you have to "mourn", "sympathize", "empathize" with some event otherwise you don't care. On the contrary, I do care. I want the men and women who participated in this horrible deed caught. I want them shot. I want to them stopped. But not because I mourn for the victims. But because I agree that what they did was wrong and unjust to the American people. But mainly, (this is going to piss some more people off) because I don't want a plane smashing in my city when I am downtown working.

Jeff

"I think what the problem here is that people think that you have to "mourn", "sympathize", "empathize" with some event otherwise you don't care. On the contrary, I do care. I want the men and women who participated in this horrible deed caught. I want them shot. I want to them stopped. But not because I mourn for the victims. But because I agree that what they did was wrong and unjust to the American people. But mainly, (this is going to piss some more people off) because I don't want a plane smashing in my city when I am downtown working."


Except when they're culling the unsavory-types from the Jeff-approved population. Backpedal some more.

- Raife

Why are you assuming that because YOU can't feel their pain, we can't? Why are you assuming we're lying? This morning they played some answering machine tapes and showed the bereaved. I cried. And I held my daughter tight. So you would've sat there like a freaking stone, bully for you.

What I'm saying is, your sick/cynical world view and your adamant assumption that we're being hypocritical when we claim we don't share it with you, actually does indicate that you're a sociopath. We can, and we do feel their pain. Not the same way their family does, but we feel it nonetheless. We also feel pretty freaking sorry that you just don't get it.

-Andrew

"Backpedal some more."

What? I haven't backpedaled one bit.

So let me get this straight, you can't at the same time think this terrorist act was wrong and yet at the same time not "mourn" the lives loss?

Get real.

As for you feeling compassion in my hypothetical father dying, that is merely you feeling selfish and guilty over the fact that you still have a father. In no way is it true compassion unless you also had the emotional ties that I do with my father. You would be merely paying the word lip service as most people here do.

Jeff

"Tell me, Tom, do you cry and break down weeping every time you hear about some murder on the 10:00 o'clock news?"

Of course not. Neither do I make crass statements in public forums about how 'it can't be all bad because it's the weeding out of the general public' and then refuse to admit they were tasteless and out of line.

-Tom

Bub,

When did I say you couldn't empathize? Maybe you do? Maybe the video got to you. I don't know, but what I am arguing is that what if you didn't cry? Suddenly are you moraly bankrupt? No.

Besides, my "sick/cynical" view if the world is merely too truthful for you to bear therefore you berate me with insults so that you can believe your denial.

Did anyone here see the pictures of the Palestinians cheering the deaths of the victims? Wow, must be alot of sociopaths in the world.

Obviously I didn't cheer and jump up and down with glee. I was shock with I saw it. I was pissed, angry and upset that someone would do this. But was I bawling my head out? Did I want to drag out my black suit and "mourn" a bit. No. But since I admit to this freely I am now labeled a sociopath. Because I admit that there are some people in this world who are taking up space sudenly I am berift of all morality. Give me a break. I am only saying what most people won't say out loud and now you guys are trying to shout me down into a corner or force me to take back my words. Well, its never gonna happen.

Jeff

---

Quote:

I have compassion for empathy for my family, loved ones, and friends but beyond that circle it is almost absent. In that, if I do not know them, never met them, I do not "feel" for them.

---

Tom said:
"Of course not. Neither do I make crass statements in public forums about how 'it can't be all bad because it's the weeding out of the general public' and then refuse to admit they were tasteless and out of line."

Okay, maybe emotions were running a little high when I said that and therefore it will admit it was out of line. I apologize if it upset anyone, but this conversation has now taken a new bent. True, someone above mentioned that right now might not be a good time to debate the philosophical value of human life and I agreed and restrained myself from further participation, but after a few people posted messages that were obviously not debate form but of personal attack I had to reply.

I am not saying you guys are wrong for your feelings. What I am saying is that I am not wrong for mine. I am guessing I feel alot different than you most of you do about this. I have different feeings, but obviously other people think that if I don't feel like they do or think like they do I am a sociopath or morally bankrupt. I think otherwise. That is all.

Jeff

The most moving thing I saw on TV today was the boss of a bond trading company who had offices in the WTC. He lost 700 employees in the attack, including his brother. Now, in 'normal' times, I probably woulda looked at him and thought, 'rich asshole, smug motherfucker, etc'. But there he was, crying a lot, and saying, 'I don't give a shit about bonds anymore.' 'Fuck the company, who cares about the company, I may just close the company down.' (His employees talked him out of it.) I mean, the guy was destroyed, to the bone.

I guess my point is that all people... yeah, even lawyers... are the same, when you get under their skin and check them out. And that's why I disagree with jshandorf's diatribe about the worthy and the worthless. We're all worthy, we're all worthless, when it comes right down to it.

"Besides, my "sick/cynical" view if the world is merely too truthful for you to bear therefore you berate me with insults so that you can believe your denial."

More truthful for me to bear? Berate you with insults so I can believe my denial? Do you have the faintest clue how fucked up you sound?

Oops, sorry, excuse me, I was berating you some more for my own denial believability.

-Andrew
PS: Look up "sociopath" or buy a book. We haven't hung any label on you here. You're hanging yourself with it. Of course, psychologists probably just made the term up to mess with people "more truthful than they could bear."

"I think that's what Jeff #2,178 was getting at, in a backward, jackass sort of way."

Huh. Well, perhaps, but we'll never fucking know because he presented it in such a, well, a backward jackass sort of way.

I think the reality of it is more like this: everyone deals with crisis in their own way and Jeff #2,178 just has this very obnoxious way of working through his feelings (or lack their of).

-Tim

Yeah, it definitely could have been presented in a way that was more sensitive to the tragedy. I think we should support other people whenever possible, even if it's in a tenuous, vague expression of "empathy". Or a check for $50. Or whatever. We mammals need to stick together on this thing.

I do think he has a point, though, and I it's brave to actually come out and admit that self-preservation is a perfectly natural impulse-- rather than cloaking it in a bunch of smarmy, sentimental diatribes on righteous indignation. Gag.

I've had my fill of those this week. Hell, I've met my quota for the year. Honesty is a refreshing change of pace.

Again, I applaud his honesty. It takes real balls to make a statement like that.

And I mean no personal attack in this -- but, I do think it's sad. I think it's sad that he feels that compassion is linked exclusively to guilt. I think some of his statements have been harsh and unfeeling -- and while it's his right to be harsh and unfeeling, it's our right to find it sad that he is that way.

And, for what it's worth, I might not be brought to tears over every murder that I hear about, but I have never been complacent about the loss of a human life. I may not ever be able to know what those people in NYC are going through, right now, but I know that it's probably 100 times worse than anything I've ever been through, and I think it's truly unfortunate that they -- that anyone -- would have to go through that.

And, Jeff, I would be tempted to trade places with one of them, were it not for the fact that I have a wife and family that would be hurt by that. I would choose someone else's life and safety over my own, even if I didn't know them, but my family come above anyone else. So, personally, I might not sacrifice my life for someone I don't know, but if not, it's probably because I don't want to inflict pain on my wife, not for my own sake. And no, I'm not just deluding myself. On the other hand, I might risk my own life to save someone else's that I didn't know. That wouldn't be out of character for me, in the least.

As cheesy as this is going to sound, I don't see that there is much purpose in my life if I'm not doing what I can to make someone else's life a better place.

Jeff1:"So let me get this straight, you can't at the same time think this terrorist act was wrong and yet at the same time not "mourn" the lives loss?

Get real."

"Get real?" That's amusing. That tells me you've never really lost anything. Or you've just avoided thinking about the fact that every one of those people had families. Oh, I forget. They didn't meet the Jeff quality standards.

Jeff1:"As for you feeling compassion in my hypothetical father dying, that is merely you feeling selfish and guilty over the fact that you still have a father. In no way is it true compassion unless you also had the emotional ties that I do with my father. You would be merely paying the word lip service as most people here do."

Can't feel true compassion, eh? Oh, I'm sorry, that must have been Jeff-approved true compassion.

Sympathy for a stranger's loss comes from us attempting to relate. I value my family, therefore I can imagine how awful it would be to lose them. If you lose your father, I feel compassion for you by relating it to my own situation. That's selfish and guilty how? That's normal, adjusted human emotion.

No, I don't dwell on it. It doesn't stop me from functioning. But I do feel it every time I hear of someone still hoping to find a loved one alive.

Jeff2:"I do think he has a point, though, and I it's brave to actually come out and admit that self-preservation is a perfectly natural impulse-- rather than cloaking it in a bunch of smarmy, sentimental diatribes on righteous indignation. Gag."

Brave to admit you're a self-centered prick? I guess, if you're in the Jeff Zone. That's not self-preservation, that's just being callous and unemotional. You're absolutely right, we Americans have had our fill of sentimentality and compassion. There certainly isn't any more room for smarmy sentimentality here. Oh wait, I'm standing in the Jeff Zone. Excuse me while I stand over...

- Raife

Entirely personal reference: I really, really dislike the Olson couple. Ted Olson is that prick that was the go-to guy for the Scaife's Arkansas project to bring down Clinton, and his wife Barbara loathed Hillary Clinton to the point of writing an incoherent book about how she sold out women, how bad feminism is, was one of the conservative commentary class, etc.

Hearing that Barbara called her husband Ted to tell him the plane she was on was being hijacked, and then a few minutes the plane hit the Pentagon.....well, let's just say I still strongly disagree with everything the both of them said, but compassion tends to soften your personal dislike of people a bit. Embarassingly, my initial reaction to "Barbara Olson on flight 77" and the bizarre tributes to her alone in the National Review and on Fox News, was "oh well, I'm not upset about that." I feel a bit guilty for thinking that, though.

On a slightly related note: does the media giving more space to the famous and semi-famous people on the planes that went down bother anyone else? Is it strictly an "available data for a story" thing?

As to Jeff? Well, looking back at the inflammatory line: 'On the other hand I realize that it IS New York and any weeding of the population in my opinion, especially from the "general public" in NY, can't be all that bad.'

Lots of people say these sorts of things occasionally, myself included, but they're normally knee-jerk statements of shock and disgust to something ("Jesus, the government should require a minimum IQ to have children,") that no one really believes.

At least, I thought so.

"As for you feeling compassion in my hypothetical father dying, that is merely you feeling selfish and guilty over the fact that you still have a father. In no way is it true compassion unless you also had the emotional ties that I do with my father. You would be merely paying the word lip service as most people here do."

Wow, that's an interesting philosophical statement too. Good lord, Jeff, are you really this much of a nihilist?

"On a slightly related note: does the media giving more space to the famous and semi-famous people on the planes that went down bother anyone else? Is it strictly an "available data for a story" thing?"

They've since worked in every non-famous person story they could. At least in this case, the rank and file are getting just as much attention as the famous.

The media really seems to love anything that's recorded. I've heard that poor woman who was trapped above the impact point cell phone message to her husband a dozen times now. Her husband was asleep so it was recorded.

"When was the last time you saw a random act of kindness by someone? Home many times has you seen on some REAL TV show someone drowning and dozens if not hundreds of people stand by and watch until the ONE person risks his/her life to save that person. "

Jsahandork thats your problem. You think of life as if it were television. you're the one thats out of reality. The truth will hit you one day, someday ... actually probably never. BTW, you dont have a better grasp of reality, you're just a hearltess sonofabitch.

"Besides, my "sick/cynical" view if the world is merely too truthful for you to bear therefore you berate me with insults so that you can believe your denial. "

Believe your denial? what the hell are you talking about? Oh he is so misunderstood... the misanthropic (so literary) jsahndorf... thats what you get when you watch too much Jenny Jones you fuckwit.

"Give me a break. I am only saying what most people won't say out loud and now you guys are trying to shout me down into a corner or force me to take back my words. Well, its never gonna happen. "

Say WHAT out loud? Wait, I just picked up on your priceless wisdom of reality... that you're just an asshole. And stop being defensive and admit you are one.

"But mainly, (this is going to piss some more people off) because I don't want a plane smashing in my city when I am downtown working. "

This might piss off some what I'm going to say to YOU and YOUR world ... I hope this does happen to YOU and only YOU, and YOU live thru it and lose YOUR legs... maybe you'll feel sorry for yourself SO much that you and your solipsistic ultimate reality will breakdown and actually make you believe that strangers can CARE for you. otherwise, im just joking because you are beyond being like everybody else and feeling remorse and sadness at the deaths of 5000 people that really lived and really had families and werent just a figment of your imagination.

etc

---

Quote:

The media really seems to love anything that's recorded.

---

'I've heard that poor woman who was trapped above the impact point cell phone message to her husband a dozen times now.'

I'm glad I've started playing games again instead of watching any more coverage. It's disappeared off of the Talking Points Memo site, but Jonah was talking about how he was diving to turn off the television when they starting finding people who were missing and having them talk about the posters they'd printed up and the like.

If I remember correctly, the line was something about "I can't watch it. They're *all* dead. Sure, there may be a few out of the 5,000-odd that turn up, but...."

Watching one or two of those interviews made me burst into tears, while watching the planes impact didn't. I have my limits.

Yeah, they got to me, too. It just makes it so real. I've been trying to avoid those, too.

"Watching one or two of those interviews made me burst into tears, while watching the planes impact didn't."

The one that got me was the CEO of a bond trading firm. He dropped his 5 year old off for kindergarten and was 15 minutes late and lived. Nearly all 700 of his employees in the tower died, including his brother. They were on the floors above the impact point.

The uplifting one to counter this was the guy who was in tower 2 and was holding the door to the stairs open so people could evacuate. As he was holding the door, the second plane crashed through the wall. He started running downstairs. He and everyone in the stairwell made it. That's not the best part though.

His wife was dropping off the kids at school when someone told her the towers had been hit and everyone was dead. She fell to her knees and began to wail, and just then her cell phone rang. It was her husband telling her he was in the stairwell and alive and they were heading out. It was wonderful hearing them recite this story.

Having gone with my mom Thursday nite to her cousins house (my moms cousins son, my second cousin i suppose) is missing, he worked for a brokerage firm on the 87th floor in one of the wtc towers ...) I didn't know the guy well (i remember going to his high school graduation party when i was like 8...). But its just real sad. My aunt kept reminiscing how he really was a good son and worked hard and was engaged, she just asked us to pray for him ... I was crying on the way home, feeling sad for her losing her only son (she only had one kid and her husband died a few years back) ...

Well anyway, i have been back to my usual routine somewhat Friday. Looking for my next contract ... browsing the boards a little... playing some games ... though in the back of my mind thinking about life, it seems fragile and inifinitely sad.

etc

"Embarassingly, my initial reaction to "Barbara Olson on flight 77" and the bizarre tributes to her alone in the National Review and on Fox News, was "oh well, I'm not upset about that." I feel a bit guilty for thinking that, though. "

Yeah, the media kind of does cloud our vision a bit, we see people famous or not, as they are shown. We dont imagine them outside of there tv persona. I felt kind of jokey and annoyed with Kennedy Juniors death and publicity... but when i saw some of the funeral pics in the paper... it was sad. I guess thinking about anybody dying or not existing anymore, American or not, Friend or not, can be humbling.

Though i do think there can be an over maudlin approach to any tragedy... the fact remains that a tragedy is a tragedy, A deaths a death be it in Somalia or America. The world, though as much i dont like to agree with Jeff, in reality is very depressing. We all know this reality in some way or another. But the WCT incident just slaps us in the face with it.

etc

mtkafka said:
"Jsahandork thats your problem. You think of life as if it were television. you're the one thats out of reality. The truth will hit you one day, someday ... actually probably never. BTW, you dont have a better grasp of reality, you're just a hearltess sonofabitch."

Once again you really don't debate the points you just fall into your tired habit of personal attacks such ass...

"Believe your denial? what the hell are you talking about? Oh he is so misunderstood... the misanthropic (so literary) jsahndorf... thats what you get when you watch too much Jenny Jones you fuckwit."

and...

"Say WHAT out loud? Wait, I just picked up on your priceless wisdom of reality... that you're just an asshole. And stop being defensive and admit you are one."

Rarely few us in society demonstrate true compassion for their fellow man. Therefore when people are confronted with the enormity of the situation, ala NY, and the multiple instances of people showing true compassion for those that have not, in the past, or cannot, in the present, they search for ways to deal with the guilt they have (i.e. giving blood, volunteering, etc...). I am basically admitting to this reality but at the same time denying I should feel guilty at all.

It is interesting in that I am not denying anyone's ability to show the compassion they claim to have but I am claiming that such compassion is not required in everybody all the time, and because of this people need to put me below them to make themselves feel better, or superior, which is the exact thing that I was accused of. How odd.

Jason said:
"Wow, that's an interesting philosophical statement too. Good lord, Jeff, are you really this much of a nihilist?"

No, not at all. I believe in moral truths but at the same time I am at odds with the "herd mentality" that most people exhibit when in a group. That is they will follow only mainstream beliefs and only accept others if a larger minority will support them. I tend to reject the norm an follow my own beliefs and feelings until I am convinced otherwise. Most people are like this when alone but when placed in a group they revert back.

Raife said:
"Sympathy for a stranger's loss comes from us attempting to relate. I value my family, therefore I can imagine how awful it would be to lose them. If you lose your father, I feel compassion for you by relating it to my own situation. That's selfish and guilty how? That's normal, adjusted human emotion."

You are confusing my connotation of the words guilt and selfish. You are only seeing them in a negative light. I am not saying having those feeling is BAD. I am saying that is natural, but most people do not want to admit to themselves this truth.

As for sympathizing for a stranger loss. That is fine if you choose to do that, but why must I? Why is it demanded of me? Why do I have to "put myself in their place so that I can feel their pain"? I can care about their suffering, in that I hope things work out for them in the long run and that they recover emotionally and mentally, but I do not need to impress upon myself the same misery that they are gong through to understand their situation. I ask you, why is it now that people are trying to avoid those personal stories of tragedy that the news keeps throwing up? Think about it. Am I so crazy as to avoid them from the start?

Bub said:
"PS: Look up "sociopath" or buy a book. We haven't hung any label on you here. You're hanging yourself with it. Of course, psychologists probably just made the term up to mess with people "more truthful than they could bear.""

psychopathic personality - an emotionally and behaviorally disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except for the individual's social and moral obligations and often by the pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal acts, drug addiction, or sexual perversion.

I have a perfect sense of my moral and social obligations. Also, I have never committed a crime other than the occasional misdemeanor in my youth (i.e. Drinking, speeding, etc...). I have no illegal drug addiction. I do smoke and drink though but I doubt if that is a litmus test worthy of passing muster. And I do not have any sexual pervasions, that I know of. ;) So just drop the name calling and labeling.

Jeff

Jeff, make what you will of your own lack of compassion, but you have a lot of gall attributing other people's compassion to guilt. Nearly as much gall as when you blithely dismissed the deaths of 5,000 people because they're New Yorkers. You should quit while you're ahead.

With apologies to Roger Ebert's review of Fight Club:

"I believe in moral truths but at the same time I am at odds with the "herd mentality" that most people exhibit when in a group," Shandorf says, sounding like a man who tripped over the Nietzsche display on his way to the coffee bar in Borders.

Ecce homo, I guess...

-Tom

Bub said:
"Look up "sociopath"

JSHandorf said:
psychopathic personality - an emotionally and behaviorally disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except for the individual's social and moral obligations and often by the pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal acts, drug addiction, or sexual perversion.
--------

Ok, good. You looked it up in a standard dictionary. Likely Mirriam Webster. It referred you to the definition of psychopath.

Now, find a book on psychology, or a dictionary of psychological terms and look up the term: "sociopath"

You'll, as memory serves, find a description of someone disconnected from emotion, with a powerful ego, and an inability to feel emotions on a personal level. A sociopath goes through the motions, but never truly connects with the world on the same level as a non-sociopath.

Most sociopaths aren't killers. I'm just using the "label" on you because Tom is right, your callous posts do indicate a sociopathic world view. Especially your dismissals of other's emotional reactions as "guilt" and your continued insistance that those who do feel compassion differently than you "wake up", "clear their eyes", etc., ad nauseum.

Now you've changed your argument to say that YOU don't feel this or that way about the victims rather than your original posts that nobody should feel this or that way. I think we couldn't care less about your personal views on this horror J. Really. It's an emotional time and any speech that dismisses a group of people in any way is bound to fall on deaf ears right now (as it probably should at any time). So, I think we'd have left you alone a long time ago if you hadn't persisted in defending yourself and your indefensible position.

What's odd is you posting these obviously controversial messages here in the first place. There are plenty of message boards that'd welcome anyone ranting about how New Yorkers need to die and how we shouldn't be sad about the deaths of people in finance.

-Andrew
PS: Nice Nietzsche reference there Tom.

Er... just re-read it. Nice Ebert referencing Nietzsche reference there Tom.
;>
-Andrew