I'm sure it's on everyone's minds. Is everyone on this board ok? Did we have anyone from the NYC/Washington area posting here?

I sincerely hope everyone is safe.

--Dave

Well, I'm safe. I landed in St. Louis just a few hours before all flights were grounded.

Yep, horrifying. It's the most serious attack against the U.S. since Pearl Harbor.

Hell, I'm pissed off, and I'm a mild, Ned Flander's-type of guy.

Not to belittle this violence, but I wonder how this will affect privacy issues in the US if it was found that the Internet was used to plan these attacks.

Glad to hear that, Mark. My heart goes out to the families of the innocent people killed and injured. I feel lucky that I have no friends or relatives directly involved, despite several in the area.

My office is in a skyscraper in downtown L.A., and it is closed until further notice. Since so many of the planes were on their way to L.A., we are waiting for something to happen.

Brad "Supertanker" Wohlenberg

"Hell, I'm pissed off, and I'm a mild, Ned Flander's-type of guy."

The cry for vengeance will be loud and long. This is such a significant attack that it will bring strong support for war, a crackdown on immigration, and security measures over certain freedoms. I expect to see massive numbers of expulsions from the country, and American ground troops finishing the fight that has been started. The people that did this should be in deep fear of what they have started.

Brad

It's all so stinking pointless, isn't it? What did they hope to accomplish?

They've murdered thousands of people, but that's not going to stop the country, nor does it make anyone here sympathetic to any terrorist cause. I think some of these so-called terrorists have too much time on their hands.

Brad,

The cries will be loud. I just hope that due care and consideration will be taken before any retaliation.

Anyone who has a beef with the US should be worried today, because who knows where the retaliation will fall? I just hope this senseless loss of life doesn't spur further senseless loss of life.

The college where I teach has just been closed, not only to allow people with loved ones in NY to deal with what they have to deal with, but out of worry for our large contingent of foreign students. Not that they will do harm, but that harm may come to them through knee-jerk reactions.

Stay cool today, and try hard to treat people with extra courtesy. You don't know what they might be going through today.

Dean

This is more serious to me than even Pearl Harbor. The Japanese at least attacked with a military purpose. This is an attack on innocent civilians, maybe even those who would be sympathetic to the causes of those involved in the attack. I can't fathom even those associated with whoever is involved don't feel some kind of remorse for this cowardly act.

There's a fundamental disconnect in the brain of anyone that would support or enact this type of horror. I pray that these people are brought to justice. I also pray for those murdered and their families.

--Dave

"The cries will be loud. I just hope that due care and consideration will be taken before any retaliation."

I fully agree. My worry is that a hugely powerful force has been set in motion, and it will be difficult to keep it focused. It wasn't very long ago that the US locked up its own citizens who were descended from the country that attacked it. It is now unfortunately easy to see how that was done.

Brad

My wife and I woke up late, she before me so she told me the news while the cobwebs were still there. She told me what happened and it just sounded like one of those implausible terror novels or bad films starring special effects before actors.

I went downstairs and saw the news. Peter Jennings droll reporting and a NY skyline missing one building. My first though which I dumbly spoke was "Where's the other building?"
My second thought was oddly of the 1970's King Kong climax. Which I'm ashamed of, but probably shouldn't be. Then the remaining tower fell in real-time.

Watching that plane veer into the building is the most horrifying thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

-Andrew
PS: Kudos and admiration to Mark and Tom for taking a moment of silence on the front page btw. And Mark, I thought about you this morning man, glad you made it before the shut-down. Your family needs you, I'm certain.

I'm more than a bit shaken. I had just finished a novel by Larry Bond called the The Enemy Within (about terrorists hitting multiple targets in the US). That was only last night and I awaken to this...

My God, the videos of the planes hitting the Towers. Simply horrific. My prayers to all. I keep looking at my 6 month old and I can't help but be scared and sick to my stomach.

Mark, my friend, glad to know you are safe and sound.

If both towers were brought down, and they hold a total of 40,000 people on an average day.....for comparision, 2,403 died in the Pearl Harbor attack.

Both the Taliban and Bin Laden are denying responsibility:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/11/afghan.taliban/index.html,http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/11/afghan.taliban/index.html

Assuming they actually aren't responsible, which is debatable: who else would do this?

Maybe a yugoslavian-related element did it, but I seriously have difficulty imagining that scenario. Some other middle-eastern faction? I can't imagine a nation actually approving something of this magnitude. I guess that leaves another terrorist group, somewhere.

No more Pearl Harbor comparisons, please.

With all due respect to the men and women who died there, Pearl Harbor was a military assault which goal was the shattering of US capability in the Pacific. It was an act of war, and as excusable or inexcusable as war itself.

Today is an act of horror. Death of the innocent was its only possible outcome. And more death will surely follow. There is a line between terror and horror. Some acts are so hideous that they obscure any possible message.

For those who claim that modern life presents no black or white, only shades of gray: let today stand as a reference point.

My three year old son watches the TV coverage and asks why the buildings are on fire. That is nothing I can ever explain. I want someone to tell this thirty-one year old why.

Then again, three weeks ago:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_395974.html

'An Arab journalist with access to the terror chief says bin Laden warned of a "very big one" being planned by Islamic fundamentalists he leads.'

Well, killing twenty thousand US citizens as an act of war, too, if it's done by a nation. I'm not sure how the definitions break down with terrorist organizations. I brought up Pearl Harbor as a magnitude comparision, not to suggest a policy response.

The phones were out, but my sister emailed me from NYC to say she was okay.

Freaky coincidence: At about the same time the towers were collapsing, I was in bed having a nightmare that my 12 story apartment building was collapsing and that I was trapped inside. I only woke up because my phone rang.

Kevin, What did you say to your 3 year old?
I have a 1 1/2 year old... I couldn't explain anything to her, she just knew I was crying and that made her sad. I felt lucky I didn't have to articulate anything but I found myself incapable of saying "It's ok honey" as well.

Now, forgive me, there's only one more (small) Pearl Harbor comparison I'd like to make...

Forget partisan politics for a second. I honestly hope President Bush is capable of the powerful and inspirational speech this country desperately needs tonight.

-Andrew

I think the Pearl Harbor comparison is useful as a gauge for the enormity of this. This is so utterly unexpected and it has a sickening impact on us as an entire nation. For all its diffeences, the closest relatable incident is Pearl Harbor.

My gut instinct is that this is clearly the work of Bin Laden. This level of coordination and intent can only come from a terrorist organization as advanced and well-established as his. Jason's suggestion of a Serbian faction is interesting, but I don't think they have any history or background in this sort of thing.

-Tom

The nice thing about going after Bin Laden is that the bastard's guilty of enough other terrorist acts that it doesn't really matter how involved he was in this. It's not like we'd be targetting an innocent man.

He knows that some people broke some buildings on purpose, and that was bad because the people inside were hurt. That's enough. He knows that Mommy and Daddy are very sad today, and that's more than enough.

I realize that my protestations over Pearl Harbor are in vain. That is the only comparison we have to make. It is the barking of a shin compared to the breaking of a bone, of course, but most commentators are allowing that.

I'm angry and scared and out of sorts. I felt a Geryk-like need to speak out against the common man for a moment.

There will be time for blame later. Right now, just donate blood.

I am sickened by this event. I work in the tallest building in Arkansas and when I told my wife about what happened in NY, she said come home. After I left for home, my company relocated its employees from the building to an alternate location for the remainder of the day.

My wife has a friend who works on the 89th floor the the WTC 2 (second one hit, first to collapse). She posted to a message board they both frequent at about 8:14 AM EST from work. No word on her status.

I hope everyone and their friends and loved ones are safe.

Bub...I have a four year old and have no idea how (or if) to talk with her about it.

-DavidCPA

I was in college when the WTC was bombed the first time (1993?) and when Oklahoma City happened. For some reason, they didn't really effect me. I, and most others, saw those attacks with the clinical sterility of a history lesson.

This is different. I am shaken. I can't concentrate on my work. Add to it the fact that Baton Rouge is home to the largest oil refinery east of the Mississippi River (we're a big nuke target, too).

Call the Red Cross and give blood.

1-800-448-3543

I still can't believe this happened.

Tom Clancy described such a scenario in his book "Debt of Honor" where a vengeful pilot augers a 747 into the Capitol building.

By planting this possibility into the minds of terrorists, is Tom Clancy partly responsible for this action?

"By planting this possibility into the minds of terrorists, is Tom Clancy partly responsible for this action?"

No.
Not at all. Even if Clancy had come up with the idea at all he wouldn't be remotely responsible so far as I'm concerned. It's not as if the idea originated with him anyway. Ask Guy Fawkes. He tried to blow up the Parliament building using gunpowder barrels some four centuries ago.

-Andrew

The landing pattern for LAX takes jumbo jets right over downtown Los Angeles. The shadows often flash over our building. It doesn't take a genius to think about what would happen if one of those crashed into one of the buildings.

If you haven't ever seen it, the Yahoo news pictures page is a good source of wire photos. Turn on the captions if they aren't on by default. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/g/ts/

Yeah, blaming Clancy in any way for it would be rather ridiculous. What's the one way you currently can't defend most buildings? You can't defend from flying things. What's the easy way to get something flying into a building? Hijack a passenger airliner. What's the way to make sure it does as much damage as possible? Crash it directly after takeoff, so it's completely full of jet fuel.

As you can see, being an amateur tactician isn't overly difficult.

Has anyone seen the amateur, directly-up-from-across the street video that ABC is playing? The plane comes from out of the frame on the left, smacks into the building, *almost* goes the entire way through, and then flames and plane parts fire out in all directions.

It's the worst thing I've ever seen. Probably the worst thing ever shown on national news.

"It's the worst thing I've ever seen."

It's a stunning view of the speed, power, and devestation of what happened. The place slices across the thin sliver of sky between the skyscrapers like a blade out of nowhere. There were people in there. There were fucking *people* in there...

-Tom

>It's the worst thing I've ever seen.

Two images are forever burned into my head: The image of the plane hitting the second building and the image(s) of people falling to their deaths.

For those interested in donating something other than blood: http://www.fema.gov/nwz01/nwz01_95.htm

Our school has a blood drive going this week that I'm sure was scheduled weeks ago. I ran into a few friends on my way back home, and they said the wait to give blood was 3 hours.

The news websites were so jammed this morning that the TA I teach a class with was going to a Norwegian news website and reading it to me to get more info.

I had to wait about 20 minutes to get gas before I came home. I've heard of $4 and $5 per gallon. Is this only going on in Missouri? I'm asking b/c i was listening to an AP feed on the radio, and they specifically mentioned Missouri and no where else.

I'm glad I haven't seen any video yet.

I spoke with my brother a few minutes ago (he lives in Nebraska) and it's now over $4 a gallon there too.

"...and the image(s) of people falling to their deaths."

I've heard tell that only Fox has shown this thus far. I'm really glad I haven't seen it. I'm imagining it, that's enough. I've stuck with ABC News and CNN faithfully today.

I think I needed to see the plane strike the building in multiple angles like that. It's horrible, but it makes it real. My mind keeps rejecting this whole thing...

I'm not much of a fan of Guiliani btw, but I'm very impressed with how he's handled this. He went there, he was in danger, he was in the crowds, and he focussed on those he knew who were now dead and on stemming the inevitable racism to come.

Yeah, Guiliani as the voice of reason is a bit odd, but it's a good development.

I still can't process that close-up impact video.

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, and no one wants to hear it, but someone spoke earlier about a hugely powerful force that has been set in motion.

I can only hope we think and act with consideration as well, as the person said above.

Otherwise, something I heard someone refer to when speaking to them about it:

"In the city of God there will be a great thunder, two big brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb. The third big war will begin when the city is burning." - Nostradamus 1654

"And the World's largest trade area will be destroyed by a ball of flames" - Holy Bible

The terrorists ultimate goal is to shake our spirit, as Bush has/is saying. It's hard not to think the above could be right, but with care and time, maybe terrorism will come to an end.

One day.

Christ almighty. There's an erie Nostradomous quote for every goddamn thing that happens. Ever.

Still no sign of the purple cloak guy who was supposed to take over the world though.
Thankfully.

Still, "two big brothers torn apart by chaos" ok, that's eerie. NYC is the "City of God"? Ok. Riight, you're losing me Big N.

Is Bush the "great leader" or is this part implying Cheney is having a heart attack?

-DormOnkey

"NYC is the 'City of God'? Ok. Riight, you're losing me Big N."

This is what I keep laughing about when that Nostradamus quote gets thrown around. Nothing like a nice vague prophesy to stir the pot.

"this is such a significant attack that it will bring strong support for war, a crack down on immigration and security measures over certain freedoms. I expect to see massive numbers of explusions from the country and American ground troops finishing the fight that has been started."
-supertanker

Your thinking with your emotions Supertanker and your not being logical. First, why the crackdown on immigration. This is the land of the free and I would still like to see it that way. Who do we deport? Arabic immigrants? They are just as important to this great country as you or me. They are Americans! The majority of the arabic communities and immigrants of all races that live in America are hard workin, tax paying Americans and to say that we should deport these people is Racist! Secondly, do we really want to go to war. We don't know whether or not Bin laden was behid this. We need to investigate this tragedy fully before we attack any group or Nation. We just can't go bomb Countries at random, because that would worsen the situation and could lead us into a major war. Think before you post!

"this is such a significant attack that it will bring strong support for war, a crack down on immigration and security measures over certain freedoms. I expect to see massive numbers of explusions from the country and American ground troops finishing the fight that has been started."
-supertanker

Your thinking with your emotions Supertanker and your not being logical. First, why the crackdown on immigration. This is the land of the free and I would still like to see it that way. Who do we deport? Arabic immigrants? They are just as important to this great country as you or me. They are Americans! The majority of the arabic communities and immigrants of all races that live in America are hard workin, tax paying Americans and to say that we should deport these people is Racist! Secondly, do we really want to go to war. We don't know whether or not Bin laden was behid this. We need to investigate this tragedy fully before we attack any group or Nation. We just can't go bomb Countries at random, because that would worsen the situation and could lead us into a major war.

D-Day: 2500 deaths.
http://archive.nandotimes.com/sproject/dday/toll.gif

Pearl harbor - 2000 deaths.

Major civil war battles: between 500 and 32,000 deaths.

http://americancivilwar.com/cwstats.html

Estimated deaths today: no one has any numbers yet, but if there was 40,000 people working in the buildings, plus 100,000+ that move through the building over an average day, it's going to be at least 5,000.

It's not going to sink in for a while exactly how big an event this is. I'm not trying to fetish the numbers, or call for blood, or whatever, but nations have gone into long, full mobilization wars over a lot less. If the agents that did this had support/ties to any nation, there's going to be war.

I'm starting to wonder if a middle eastern element is actually responsible. I've heard reports that one of the hijackers was heard speaking in "unaccented english" on the control tower radio.

Psalm 144

Yah, for americans it is maybe biggest day loss of life ever. for others there was much worse - british had killed 20.000 in first day of somme battle (1916) and 35.000 injured. still maybe americans will get angry and do something to stop terrorists forever - only america can do big things like this but only when all citizens are ready to do it.

"Your thinking with your emotions Supertanker and your not being logical."

You are terribly misreading what I wrote. I didn't say I supported any of those actions, I said I expected them (perhaps poor word choice on my part). It is a comment on the reaction I expect from my fellow Americans. If you read a little further down, I also said, "It wasn't very long ago that the US locked up its own citizens who were descended from the country that attacked it. It is now unfortunately easy to see how that was done."

If another country supported this attack, I do consider it an act of war, and it will require a strong military response. As with previous wars, I do not doubt the Americans who left that country will be among the strongest supporters of the USA in attacking their rejected homeland. Two examples spring to mind. First is my great-grandfather, who emigrated from Germany in the late 1800s. When WWI began, he forbade anyone in the family from speaking German from that point forward because he did not want any questions of loyalty. Dumping your mother tongue is a pretty serious demonstration of committment. Second is the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, a.k.a. the Nisei Battalion. Their relatives were illegally held in the relocation camps, but they still fought heroically for the USA (piling up 18,143 decorations, including 52 Distinguished Service Crosses, one Distinguished Service Medal, 560 Silver Stars (28 with Oak-leaf clusters), 22 Legions of Merit, 4,000 Bronze Stars, 12 Croix de Guerre and 9,486 Purple Hearts). That record clearly speaks of the heroism and loyalty of those men, yet they clearly had reasons to doubt the USA.

That said, I do want to ensure anyone who chooses to continue their citizenship with that country is sent back to their chosen homeland. They are the enemy. They should receive no succor or comfort from the USA. The same thing happened to lots of Germans living in the USA when WWII began, so it is not a racist stance - it is war.

"Yah, for americans it is maybe biggest day loss of life ever."

The battle of Antietam holds that distinction with about 5,000 American deaths in one day.

Someone from the Pentagon estimated 800 deaths there. There were 266 killed on the four aircraft. I can't imagine the numbers dead under the World Trade Center, but it's plausible that Antietam will hold second place once we know how many were lost in New York.

-Tom

"Major civil war battles: between 500 and 32,000 deaths."

Jason,

Note that those numbers are *casualties* and not deaths. Casualties include wounded and prisoners.

-Tom

Wow, Tom, you're right. I also found a number indicating 58,000 US soldiers died in all of Vietnam.

Now, imagine they hit at 10:30 and the buildings went down right then.....

Antietam, I think, was the worst day of loss in history for the US. It was around 22,000 dead, I think (I'm a little dusty on this), with 35,000 overall casualties. If Antietam was 5,000 dead, it will be number 2. This one, I fear, will easily top 10,000.

This is different, though. This was a massive attack, with one of the primary targets being a civilian soft target, and no one want the dubious credit for doing it. It's an act of war to inflict this wound on a nation. I have to agree with bush not making any distinction between terrorists and those who harbor them.

People have been mentioning alternative culprits besides bin-Laden. The Chinese have been busting our chops all year. And the trouble with them has been all about planes, right? We bombed their embassy in the Balkans. One of our listening planes collides with one of their fighters. I don't really think they did this, but the progression makes it seem plausible. Certainly, I haven't heard anyone else mention the possibility.

I've been watching CNN pretty much nonstop since roughly 9am EST, and watching this whole thing develop has been pretty horrific. It's a terrible day for humanity, but just because it happened in the U.S. it's taken over the news for the entire day. There's no excusing the actions that were undertaken by the terrorists today, but this sort of thing (not on this scale, but the principle is still there) has been happening daily in various parts of the world. No one feels the need to mention all of the shit going on in the West Bank, for example. Don't think that I'm condoning today's attacks--it's just that we need to realize that this isn't that much different from any other act of terrorism... it's just on American soil.

This incident could have been a lot worse, though--just imagine the plane that went down in Pennsylvania had made it to its destination. I'm not sure if it was headed for NYC or DC (I'd assume DC, but I'm really not sure)... but it could have added another few hundred deaths to the toll.

That being said, this whole thing doesn't seem real. Watching the footage, I just kept thinking to myself, "this looks like a movie." Some of the footage of people running down the street (reporters included) looked like something out of Godzilla. It's a shame that this happened. One concern I have right now, though, is that the US government is just going to find *anyone* to blame for this. The American public won't accept a plea of "we can't find these people." The perpetrators may walk away while some other innocent group is persecuted.

China has little to gain by a massive attack on America, particularly on American trade, considering on how strongly they rely on it.

I'm just incredulous Kazz accused China here. They've got more invested in anti-terrorism than we do. Massive military powers don't need the bad press and world reaction terrorism inevitably brings. Only the desperate and the fanatical engage in it. The enemy here is small but frighteningly well co-ordinated and organized.

Ohle said:
"it's just that we need to realize that this isn't that much different from any other act of terrorism... it's just on American soil."

That's not true. There's never been an act of terrorism this well organized, on this remarkable scale, or that's had this effect. This dwarfs major military maneuvers and the death toll could climb higher than many wars.

You can cry it odd that Princess Di or JFK Jr.'s deaths could dominate the news for a day or two but this deserves that kind of coverage more than any news since... well... since Pearl Harbor (sorry Kevin).

It isn't over. In NYC at WTC plaza hundreds of people are engaged in the rescue effort and teams of doctors have been dispatched as amputation crews. This is no West Bank, no mistakenly bombed embassy, or intentionally bombed East African embassy, this is bigger than the Cole and all airplane terrorism combined, and it's a lot more than "just on American soil."

-Andrew

While I seriously doubt a Chinese involvement, they do have much to gain from a US that's tied up by huge domestic emergencies. Taiwan. Control of the South China Sea. The Spratly Islands. The Philipines. Hell, they'd be more apt to help out the N. Koreans in their bid for reunification. Can you image an America in the grip of a series of catastrophic domestic attacks and trying to deal with something like an invasion of Taiwan or S. Korea? If nothing else, the Chinese are privately probably rooting for more destruction....

Agreed. It's unbelievable. I have seen videos of people in the Middle East cheering in the streets, celebrating, thrilled that the US has suffered from such a blow. I just keep thinking "Don't they realize that thousands of innocent people -- innocent people, men and women children, just like you and me -- were killed in a senseless act of tragedy??" It's nauseating.

I agree with Ohle on one thing -- my bets are that the plane that crashed was heading for DC -- either the White House or the Capitol. I'd also bet that another plane was intended to be hi-jacked, and taken towards the other of those two buildings. Thank God that both were unsuccessful.

As a side note -- American Airlines has a major base here in Tulsa, and some of my best friends work there, as well as my father-in-law (and my wife, but she's still on vacation). It's amazing how tight security has been, the locks on all the buildings have been changed. It's remarkable what a far-reaching effect this has had.

And when the most powerful nation in the world gets hit like this, you can bet the whole world will sit up and pay attention.

Kudos to the American administration, and all American citizens. In light of tragedy, I think the whole thing has been handled very well.

"If nothing else, the Chinese are privately probably rooting for more destruction...."

No offense, but I think you couldn't be further from the truth. The only thing that China has to gain from chaos in the US is further damage to their own already shaky economy. Their "most favored nation" trade status does not exist merely for our benefit. This attack is going to have an effect on all the world markets; how much of an effect remains to be seen. But it ain't going to be good.

There are -- were -- dozens of international banking and financial institutions in those towers. Many countries will be directly affected. Not to mention that virtually EVERY "free" nation, every democracy world-wide, has been affected today. This is an attack against freedom.

>There are -- were -- dozens of international banking and financial institutions in those towers

Yeah, I'm surprised that there haven't been announcements of the companies in those offices. I know it was Morgan Stanley's main office - largest U.S. investment banking firm, which was the primary tenant of the buildings, as well as Lehman Brothers (another investment banking firm) and the main office of American Express. Just the loss of folks at those companies alone will have a significant impact on the economy. But the real tragedy is the loss of life, of course, especially of the rescue workers.

And we can't forget the four pilots, thirteen flight attendants, and 266 men, women, and children on those planes. Unbelievable.

"Bub...I have a four year old and have no idea how (or if) to talk with her about it."

DavidCPA, sorry I missed this (and sorry if you were being rhetorical) you might be mistaking me for Kevin Perry and his three year old. My girl is only 17 months and I didn't have to explain anything. I just had to stop crying initially (she reacted to my face) and take a couple Sesame Street breaks from the news.

As for your four year old... I'm not a parenting expert (yet)... maybe ask her if she needs an explanation. If so, do so carefully and simply. If not, let her be a kid.

Kevin Perry can probably weigh in better.
-Andrew

I'm sure you've all got a window here already...

CNN's story.

Interesting quote:

Authorities took three people into custody late Tuesday in New Jersey after stopping a van on a highway near the George Washington Bridge, Kerik said late Tuesday. No details were immediately
available.

And in south Florida, information gleaned from the hijacked planes' passenger lists have led to search warrants that the FBI is in the process of or will soon be executing, a law enforcement source told CNN.

Desslock - the companies have started
http://www.morganstanley.com/

I am sure they had more pressing concerns than updating their website today. Odd though - as soon as I heard, I looked for reaction. The web makes the whole world so small and immediate.

If ever there was something to kick us up and get us to stop using so much oil - hopefully this is it. We funded this. We support it. The goverments lack of extending energy conservation monies and research started by ford and expanded by carter need to be reviewed. Tax breaks for solar homes etc - we have to.

One other thing - watching Tony Blair denounce the attack - first thought to my mind - why is the guy from pet shop boys so pissed?

Chet

"Unnamed sources" in Boston say they found a car with "training manuals" in it that was driven by two arab brothers, one of them a trained pilot, in Boston.

Blair's wierd looking, but man, his statement was a hell of a lot more effective than anything but Guilani's. The Brits don't mince words.

The Boston Herald has all sorts of interesting reports. They're saying that all this was likely based in Boston, and there may still be collaborators there.

Read it here!

yeah, Guilani - how many people want to say f' our rules - let the guy stay. He was on the scene and had to take refuge during one of the collaspes. Other reports of him getting on the phone and getting things done as he visits hospitals etc, one example a hospital was overwhelmed with blood donors guilani asked what he could do - 5 minutes later 10 buses were there transporting people to another donation area.

Bush's speech felt so forced and calculated. screw who clinton slept with - he felt and acted like a regular guy reacting like you could believe.

Chet

Heh, that's funny -- I thought Bush's remarks felt genuine. On the contrary, I never thought I could believe a word that Clinton said.

Regardless, I'd hate to be the President on a day like that. I don't envy him his job, one bit.

This morning they're rehashing all the footage from yesterday. I just saw something pretty amazing - one of the CNN cameramen was out in the street when the tower collapsed. He booked it down the street, camera rolling but pointing behind him. He ran past all these people who are just strolling and looking at him like "what are you running from, buddy?"

You could see the billowing cloud catching up to him, and finally he turned to face it, pointed the camera up and said "Oh god, I hope I live... I hope I live through this. I'm going to get behind this car." and then whoom, the debris just instantly covered everything. It struck me as interesting that the vast majority of what was laying at least a foot deep EVERYWHERE was grey particulate ash and millions of pages of office paper. Just an insane amount of paper, as if the building must have been made of it.

Then they cut to video of Palestinians in the streets. Young boys and women, jumping up and down in celebration. Then they talked about how the Israelis rolled tanks into some neighborhood to demolish three buildings that were called "hives of suicide bombers". Cut to footage of tanks and Palestinians shooting rifles from behind walls.

Major Ed Dames was on the radio last night. The government's contracted "remote viewing team" was immediately pulled off the Chandra Levy case and put to work trying to find the base of operations that this attack came from. He said they had pinpointed a bunker that's accessed from inside some tomb in Afghanistan - I forget what city. They had a fairly thorough description of it. These are the same folks who used to work for the CIA doing this, so they're not a bunch of pseudo-psychic wannabe's. It'll be interesting to see how accurate they've been on such short notice.

Israeli bomb-aftermath cleanup specialists are currently on their way here. They're quite experienced in sifting through rubble to recover... well, you know. Now, this presents an interesting question. Not an "easy" question, but what do you do with two piles of concrete dust and steel that have approximately 20,000+ bodies buried in them? How do you clean that up without a mass-grave situation? How do you identify the dead? National Guardsmen who came out of there were pretty speechless, saying "We don't want to talk about the things we had to walk over."

They talked to a guy who had gone into the buildings to assist - he was an EMT. They got the injured out as best they could and he went with a group of them. He described the FBI and firemen who were in the building, how they were all business and he asked if they thought the building was coming down. The FBI agent replied "Yeah, she's coming down. Get outta here." and the FBI guy turned and walked back into the building - pretty much knowing he wasn't coming back out.

The newpaper has a big picture of a man falling head-first out of the building, after jumping. The commentators this morning are talking to a man who was on the 23rd floor and made it out. He said that hundreds of people were jumping to their deaths, holding hands and going in groups of three or more - choosing their time rather than waiting on the flames to climb up to them.

One firefighter was killed when a jumper landed on him.

This sort of thing doesn't happen in America... well, now it does.

"Bush's speech felt so forced and calculated."

God, is now really the time for Bush-bashing?

"Bush's speech felt so forced and calculated."

God, is now really the time for Bush-bashing -- and jokes about who Tony Blair looks like? Christ.

Now is exactly the time for jokes. Otherwise we're all going to go insane from our own impotence.

"I'm just incredulous Kazz accused China here. "

Bub, I didn't accuse anyone of anything. someone posted a message asking if there was anyone else that could have done it. Chill.

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Quote:

"Bush's speech felt so forced and calculated."

God, is now really the time for Bush-bashing?

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New York is lucky to have Giuliani right now. I just couldn't be more impressed him over the last two days. In this morning's press conference he just seemed so direct, intelligent, sincere. A man of obvious importance who knows it, yet somehow exuding a sort of essential humility in the face of the situation.

One reporter asked him a question about asbestos danger. Without skipping a beat Giuliani answered it, giving a clear intelligent answer that felt like one person talking truthfully to another. He is really remarkable.

I don't mean to join in the Bush bashing, and I do think he's doing all the right things so far, but he just looks so odd, so out of place. The words are right but they are not his. I cannot help but feel weird about him. He sits behind those big desks and my mind instantly imagines his feet swinging beneath it, and him sitting on a couple of phone books. Colin Powell sitting beside him only exacerbates the sense that he is a kid in King Cheney's court.

Sorry. Again, he's making the right moves. Technically. And I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He just doesn't truly belong there.

-Amanpour

At this point, I don't really care about Bush's communication abilities. I agree he does look a bit uncomfortable when speaking, but I only care about how he and his staff are going to act in this situation. In taking action and those steps necessary to answer the terrorist deeds, he has my full support.

I don't know if this idea went through anyone else's head yesterday, but I felt the urge to go enlist in the armed forces. I have no idea what use they have for a 31 year old, out-of-shape accountant, but the thought did run through my head. I guess if they really need me, I am still of selective service age (18-35).

-DavidCPA

Absolutely. It's always seemed to me that he's a giggling kid amazed that he's somehow the president. Cheney doesn't really impress me either, but I've been a fan of Colin Powell since I served (Army) through Desert Storm.

He can't seem to speak honestly, and from his heart. It's like he's giving a speech to his fellow 8h graders whenever he walks to the podium. I wasn't really a fan of Clinton, either, to be fair.

I agree that Giulliani has done a remarkable job in New York. He was actually across the street from the WTC when it collapsed, and ended up trapped in the building for awhile. Then he was out in the crowds, in the thick of things.

- Raife

I only saw a quick snippet from Colin Powell. At first I was surprised he wasn't speaking more, but then really at this point, you don't want alot of people trying to speak as one voice, let the president speak and his press sec. Less is more at this point, too many wild guesses already. Saw some news women (don't remember the station) insisting that by finding the arabic flight manuals, it had to be planted to hide the real terrorists...

Dave by the time you get trained, there would be nothing left to do but peel spuds, but i understand the feeli

chet

Actually yeah David. I'v been thinking about joining the military next year when I turn 18 but If in the unlikely case we end up going to war I think I may sign up now. Sort of seems silly I guess I dont believe in all that glory and honor crap I'm not much of a flagwaver either it just seems right.

I'm no George Bush fan, but we need a more effective communicator right now. I also agree now isn't the time for president bashing (yet here I go)...

To my mind Bush's main problem last night wasn't his delivery, it was that god-awful speech. There was nothing inspiring, deep, or meaningful about the writing. His delivery didn't help at all, too many beats, too much artificial concern and way too much simple reading, but I can't think of a president who could've made that turkey sing.

That and the fact we had to wait 11 hours to really hear from him (which was unfortunate but understandable). They should've crafted something stronger and more comforting for him to say from Nebraska or something.

-Andrew

After Pearl Harbor, FDR gives us "a day that shall live in infany".

After yesterday, Bush gives us "they won't dent the steel of American resolve". I somehow doubt that one's going into the history books.

-Tom

On the subject of political sniping - Rumsfeld's been an absolute embarassment so far. He was just hounded out of a Pentagon press conference by reporters asking blitheringly obvious, reasonable, and easy to handle questions.

Powell's ok, but he's no Clinton at press conferences. Guiliani's really surprising me.

No kidding Tom. An even better one from the books "Four score and..."

Clinton also had a problem with bad speechwriting, but he was much better off the cuff. Bush has no cuff. Which is why he's constantly being fed what to say. Sadly, they seem to have nobody there who can give him anything inspiring to say.

What, the events yesterday weren't moving enough?
The most eloquent thing he said last night, aside from the bit about nations who harbor terrorists, was the most "cliched... Psalm... ever."

Bet the speechwriters didn't have to probe hard to find that line... jeez.

-Andrew

I have been completely underwhelmed by the level of Bush's public speaking. He is just so damn dull and uninspiring.

As far as he decision making I don't have a problem with it...yet. But, god, can he put you to sleep. I hear that he is really not like that in private but who knows.

Jeff

Has anyone discovered that someone they know is missing? My brother-in-law's best friend is one of the rescue workers who was in the WTC when it collapsed. He just found out today. I remember him from the wedding. He was a really nice guy.

My wife's Godmother lives in Brooklyn...she related to us numerous stories of people she knew that worked at the World Trade Center including a waiter in the top floor restaurant. When she called to inquire, they told her that anyone above the aircraft hits was dead.

Her car was covered with glass and debris this morning as was the entire neighborhood. She was also scheduled to attend a function at the Mariott Tuesday night.

The worst thing she related is that she's a school teacher and many of her students had parents that worked in the hotel in the WTC. When they closed school and sent them home, they were unsure if some of them would even have parents to go home to. It's absolutely devastating. One of her teacher friends' parents were both firefighters. This woman had yet to hear from them late last night.

On top of all that, she noted that there were about 17 daycare facilities inside the WTC.

--Dave

My wife's friend who worked on the 89th floor of WTC 2 is still unaccounted for. Not looking good.

I was chatting on battle.net last night and a bud from Massachusetts mentioned that two managers from his company were supposed to be on Flight 11 from Boston to LA, except they were laid off this week so their trip was cancelled. I can't imagine anyone being so happy they were fired.

-DavidCPA

Holy shit, David. The skated because they were laid off? Talk about putting your troubles in perspective!

Good luck with your wife's friend. I hope things turn out okay.

---- "An even better one from the books "Four score and..." "

Bush isn't much of a speechmaker, it's true. But no one ever raved about Lincoln's oratory skills either. His speeches are awesome on paper but he had a high squeeky voice and reportedly not much of a delivery. And have you ever heard any of the few surviving recordings of Teddy Roosevelt? Yech. But I'd take either one of them as Prez in a situation like this. This is Bush's first (and maybe greatest) test. He may do well or poorly, but his speechmaking skills will have nothing to do with it.

Geez, just thinking about T.R.'s reaction to something like yesterday's events. The Big Stick and Gunboat Diplomacy are definitely what we need right now.

Todd (who always thought Clinton sounded like an A- student in an 8th grade speech class)

I believe that Bush has been honest with the country, and that is all that I ask.

I also think he's legitimately trying to do the right thing, not just the "What-will-get-me-re-elected" thing.

Granted, I've never met the man, so I don't really know for sure. But I admire him, nonetheless, and I certainly wouldn't want his job right now.

'On top of all that, she noted that there were about 17 daycare facilities inside the WTC.'

Well. As if there isn't going to be enough baying for blood already.

In response to Nostradamus' claimed prediction, I stumbled upon this:

Prediction revealed...

Okay, props to Bush. This morning I saw his more extemporaneous appearance at the White House, his conference call with Giuliani and Pataki, and his Q&A with reporters afterward.

Granted he's not the most articulate man in the world, but his emotion was real, and it really hit me. He really came close to breaking down, and for a moment I could see the sincerity of his emotions, and for a moment I realized how hard it must be for him right now.

Just an incredibly touching moment.

-Christien (Amanpour)

Let's also not forget that, love 'em or hate 'em, Bush has surrounded himself with some pretty sharp people. He'll get solid advice, I think.

He had better get some solid advice because I have a feeling this is far from over. I'm not afraid to admit that I'm just a hair on the frightened side right now.

--Dave

The problem is finding the appropriate level of response. We need the support of the moderate Arabs if we don't want the situation to further erode over the long haul. We don't want to create even greater resentment in the Arab world that will result in more terrorist activity. It might be difficult to avoid this, though.

I also wonder if we're not considering attacking Iraq again and actually deposing Saddam.

Agreed. I have a lot of faith in Bush and his advisors. Say what you want about him, but I think that he's a good man, and will prove himself to be a good president, and I think he chose his cabinet very well.

But, Mark, you're right. There could be a fine line between dealing appropriate justice on those guilty and stooping to their level and sparking WW3.

My mom said that Nostradamus said "When the four birds cease to fly and the two mountians fall it will begin the war that ends it all" I dont put any stock in this but if i did i would be quick to point out that it does not specify exactly what the war will end.

"I realize President Bush has a lot of hard decisions to make, but he always looks like he doesn't want the responsibility"

Weather or not you like him or think now is the time to bash him or not. If there is one thing that you should not attack it is his not wanting the responsibility. He may very well lead his nation to war and while no matter how right i belive a war to be i will not follow one who would go into a war without the heaviest of hearts. It is prehaps the most basic rule of warfare as outlined by Sun Tzu so many centuries ago that war is to be only the last resort.

May god give our leader the five srengths, may god shield our leader from the five weaknesses.
Shining One

The more I think about it, the more I don't want us to go into a full-scale war effort. Set up a base of operations in Pakistan and root out Bin Laden and his gang and destroy the training camps, but that's about it. I'm really worried that anything more will destabilize conditions over there even more.

"My mom said that Nostradamus said"

The Nostradamus "quote" about the WTC tragedy is a hoax.

A hoax, I tell you.

-Ron

I just had a conversation with my girlfriend about our response, and my thoughts are that rooting these guys out could be impossible. For all we really know Bin Laden could be anywhere, and his best operatives and financial contacts could be in Iran, Iraq, or even the USA. So sending in special forces to get him, or his cohorts may be ineffective, and in my mind not even the "best" solution. I think the government is choosing not to direct our ire simply at the terrorist puppet masters, but at their ability to find safe havens. The US could begin confronting any state that harbors these guys (as I'm sure you guys realize), and personally I think this is probably the most realizable goal. To be effective the war would have to take place on two levels: the main armed forces intimidating/destroying harborers of terrorists, and increased intelligence operatives to seek out actual terrorists. I think this is the best way to go, and to worry that we are going to invoke more terrorist attacks isn't worthwhile. Look what they did when we weren't bullying anyone, at least severely. I agree that destabilizing the region is going to hurt our economy, and possibly lead to wars in the middle east, but this atrocity, IMHO, requires a severe reaction. Lets dole out some consequences in the smartest way possible.

This is the actual Nostradamus quatrain from Century VI:

Quatrain 6,97

Cinq & quarante degrez ciel bruslera
Feu approcher de la grand cit� neuue
Instant grand flamme esparse sautera
Quand on voudra des Normans faire preuue.

At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
Fire to approach the great new city:
In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
When one will want to demand proof of the Normans.

>I'm really worried that anything more will destabilize conditions over there even more.

We're pretty much in a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" situation and the reality is that any action (or inaction) could result in destablizing that part of the world. If we do nothing, or don't send a truly strong message, those groups that hate Israel could grow even more bold and things could quickly spiral out of control. (In fact, just as in the Gulf War, it's in our best interest to keep Israel out of the conflict because that will most certainly spark a much-larger conflict.)

Also, if we do not send a strong message, this will happen again. For years terrorists have lashed out at the West and then ran back to sympathetic countries and hid, where they knew they were safe. That has to end. The sad reality is that we need to flex some serious military muscle and tell countries (and back it up with force) that if they harbor or assist terrorists, we're coming in hard and fast.

It pains me to take that position, but such is the world we live in. I was against the Gulf War (and still think it was a serious mistake and failure in foreign policy), but this is an entirely different situation.

"This is the actual Nostradamus quatrain from Century VI"

So what?

Well, it sounds pretty vague to me. I think it could be just as easily attributed to other disasters as this one.

And, it's certainly not what has been circulating.

I think Bill was trying to make sure we all knew what he really said -- a far cry from what some accounts have claimed.

"I think Bill was trying to make sure we all knew what he really said."

Thanks. That was my point...

The thing about Bin Laden being harbored is that at some point he may not be. He might just go underground, sneak into a country, and hide. Then what do we do? It's like trying to find our own criminals in this country. You look but you don't always find them.

"He might just go underground, sneak into a country, and hide. Then what do we do? It's like trying to find our own criminals in this country. You look but you don't always find them."

Yes, some criminals do hide. But I dare say there has never been a manhunt like the one being mobilized now. If he were to sneak out of Afganistan, it would be very difficult for him to travel, much less hide. It would just be a matter of Powell getting on the phone and building a bigger coalition.

This guy isn't going anywhere IMO. His death provides a martyr for future fundamentalists to rally behind. He certainly believes this as he has his own people martyring themselves for his cause. I think he will stay put and he will be caught or killed.

I'd rather he be caught. I'd like to see if he really is as committed to this crusade as journalists say he is. What if he really is just a spoiled rich kid that commits these acts because he believes there could never be retribution? I think that's a very likely possibility and if proven true, it would certainly make many fundamentalists think twice about following a man with a cushy upbringing and plenty of inheritance.

--Dave

"This guy isn't going anywhere IMO. His death provides a martyr for future fundamentalists to rally behind. "

I don't think so. If that's what he wanted, he'd have died years ago. bin Laden has been a survivor. I'm thinking he's left Afghanistan for a more neutral country, one the US would be a little less likely to just rough up while looking for him. Preferably somewhere without an extradition treaty, so that the government there doesn't have to get directly involved with "harboring" him. Terrorists have been masters of using law to avoid prosecution by the law. It's a cornerstone of their survival dynamic.

I'm not sure that lack of an extradition treaty is going to work this time.

I think "harboring" is going to be defined broadly to deter silly end runs around the intent of the US statement.

Yeah but Kazz, martyrs don't always seek death because martyrs tend to be useful when alive too. They just welcome it when it does come.

Bin Laden will definitely become a martyr when we get him.

-Andrew

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a more neutral country, one the US would be a little less likely to just rough up while looking for him

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