Personally I'm not entirely sure why they bothered to report on this, other than just to say EA is wasting money. The fact that EA brought on a professional composer (Michael Giacchino) and the Northwest Sinfonia (not a small group by any stretch of the imagination) for *two* previous full soundtracks in the Medal of Honor series -- both of which are available for purchase -- seems to be way beyond Fatbabies. And they were popular, too.

Gee, spending money on a good game series -- what a shocker.

--- Alan

The soundtracks for the previous two Medal of Honor titles were simply amazing. Easily one of the top 10 game soundtracks ever.

-Pleugim

I wonder why more action games don't use classical scores? They seem content to offer ambient NIN rip-offs (or actual Trent Reznor, erm, "tunes" in the case of Quake), pulsing techno, or guitar-store-ad rock.

Quite a few movies feature classical scores during intense action scenes, even in movies that are action-oriented, and it works great. The most dramatic and entertaining part of Episode 1 was the fight with Darth Maul at the end, in no short part because of it featured the one bright shining moment in an otherwise uninspired John Williams score. (Duel of the Fates, if anyone forgets and wants to find an MP3 or something).

I think traditional 3D action games could benefit from a decent classical score. I'd like to see it happen a lot more.

The Diablo II expansion has a full orchestra soundtrack for Act 5, and it's a real treat. The original game's music's fine, but with a real orchestra it's quite majestic. :)

Diabloii.net had an article about it, I think Matt Uelmann (sp?) still composed it but he got to conduct an orchestra in, I think, Russia or some eastern Europe country.

I'm keen, on PC, for the upcoming MoH game. I'm still trying to find info on an upcoming air combat oriented MoH game I've read about.

I liked Reznor's ambient Quake stuff quite a bit actually...

I also enjoy Civ2's world mix, Alpha Centauri's appropriately subtle music, and I'm playing Outlaws for the first time now. That's a GREAT score. Especially the twisted piano saloon track...

Star Wars games always benefit from that score. Except FoComm's horrid remix.

Anyway, Diablo 2's score is truly excellent.

-Andrew

I thought Diablo 2's score was really derivitave and boring. The "Tristram" bit from the first game was far more memorable (though it was the only really good tune from that one).

Neverhood's music was genius for that game. Outlaws has a great score, too.

There have been plenty of PC games with good classical scores - Total Annihilation comes to mind. Just not many 3D action games.

Yeah, the Total Annihilation score was fantastic. I ripped the music off the CD and made MP3s for my collection. One of the things I was most bummed about when Amen: the Awakening got canceled was that I'd never get to hear Jeremy Soule's score for the game which had already been recorded. That and I still don't know what caused a third of the world's population to go crazy...

Brad Grenz

ahh.. well, ya'll beat me to it. thumbs up on ANYTHING Jeremy Soule has done the music/soundtrack for. :)

i didn't care *at all* for the Reznor/Quake stuff. and i was even a huge NiN fan at the time, too. it was (to me) the incarnation of ASS on a cd. fortunately, you could play the game without the "music".

- mike - and remember kiddies, TA works under Win2K! -

Soule did Icewind Dale too. He's a great guy I was all set to interview... then Daily Radar got canceled.

Jason... I disagree about Diablo 2, but I see what you mean. I think I like it most because I don't hear it much, it just plays and affects my mood in subtle ways.

Why am I enjoying Outlaws right now more than any shooter since Half-Life?

Why did I miss it the first time around?

-Andrew

Cause Lucasarts saddled the team with a then rapidly aging old engine (Dark Forces), and everyone was fixated on the sizes of their FPS guns (still are). :) Sometimes the limitations in a game can be more interesting and fun than giving players nuclear missile guns. :)

Yeah, and the engine does look and play bad even taking the year it was released into account. I also find the AI to be annoyingly... limited.

But, the level design and setting are superb. Am I right in thinking this was the first 1 shot/1 kill game? I'm playing on "Ugly".

A Western Shooter, what a natural that really is.

-Andrew

"Why am I enjoying Outlaws right now more than any shooter since Half-Life?"

Why don't you ask Tom, who gave it a middlin' review back in 1997? Maybe we could assign your research assistant to the mysteries of reviewers who can't recognize great, innovative FPS games until years later.

In fact, I'm _still_ waiting for a FPS game that handles stamina the way Outlaws did, which was damn near perfect. In multiplayer, when you ran out of stamina, not only did you slow to a walk (obviously)-- you also made loud panting noises which everyone around could hear. It's little touches like that which seperate the truly great from the merely good.

"Why don't you ask Tom, who gave it a middlin' review back in 1997?"

That's a Gamecenter review isn't it?
Since you obviously keep a personal archive Chick's opinion Jeff, can you find a link? I'd be interested in reading that.

Anyway, I'm only on the third mission. The train mission. I must say this... the engine is bad, even by '97 standards, and the AI is simply nonexistent.

-Andrew

About stamina, stuff like that is overrated in games. When I'm playing a shooter I don't like to have to worry about my character being tired. It's annoying. It's like having to feed a character in an RPG. No thanks.

Here's the text of the review:

Westerns were spoiled for me after 1992's "Unforgiven". Clint Eastwood's dark fable shook the genre to its foundations; indeed, it shattered the foundations themselves. Who could take Alan Ladd's bland twinkling eyes and Gary Cooper's Eisenhower-era grin seriously after hearing William Munny's growl: "Any sumbitch takes a shot at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, but I'm gonna kill his wife, all his friends, burn his damn house down." Westerns will never be the same.

Draw!

So it is with LucasArts' new 3D shooter, Outlaws. Who can take its sloppy 2D sprites and its thin one-note atmosphere seriously after Quake's technical prowess, Duke Nuke 'Em's wit, or even Dark Forces' richness? Ironically enough, Outlaws uses the same engine as Dark Forces, but it doesn't have the Star Wars universe or the imaginative level design that made its predecessor an unqualified success in spite of technical limitations. These limitations are the main problem with Outlaws. The graphics look flat and flimsy, dissolving into indistinct pixels when you get close. Tight corridors and small rooms have an awfully blocky feel to them as you struggle to squeeze past swinging doors and blurred texture mapping. There are numerous graphics glitches as items and characters protrude through walls. You can get a sense for how the physics have been faked by throwing a stick of dynamite and watching it catch an invisible corner or slide down a wall. This engine was used well in Dark Forces, but it seems that someone took a step backwards in upgrading it for Outlaws. If you're happy with Bethesda's clunky Xngine, then you'll feel right at home. But if you've been spoiled by the latest generation of first-person technology, Outlaws will seem like barely a step above Pong.

Once Upon a Time in the West

The background music and the opening credits are wonderful homages to the spaghetti Westerns of the 60's, but otherwise, the Western theme is pretty limp. Enemies consist of cowboys with different colored shirts and hats; there's nary an Indian, a saloon floozy, or a wild animal among them (with the exception of a couple of tarantulas). The storyline features an oddly Lincoln-esque hero trying to rescue his daughter from a railroad baron. There's some great potential for each of the baron's henchmen to be introduced as distinctive personalities, but no effort is made to flesh them out. Instead, they're simply enemies at the end of each level who take a few extra shots to kill. Once you've dispatched them, the first-person game abruptly shuts down, leaving you no time to gather extra power-ups or search for secret areas. Most of the levels then reward you with a cutscene of the death of this character you've never seen before. Rather than lending atmosphere, these cinematics seem irrelevant and disjointed. And the big pay-off at the end is so cliched that you'll probably groan aloud.

Gunfight at the Not-So-OK Corral

The levels offer no surprises and quite a few disappointments. For instance, shattering windows, a staple of Westerns, are introduced early on, but then abandoned for the rest of the game. The logging mill features a circular saw, but it's only used (briefly) in a cutscene. There are tunnels threaded with mining car rails, but no cars to ride. And although one level sports a majestic towering waterfall, there's nothing behind it and no way to ride over it. Most of the puzzles are your garden-variety "find the key" type, so the more complex puzzles near the end of the game seem out of place. The second level, a shoot-out in the town of Sanctuary, is actually the best in the game: it's a house-by-house gunfight, with dowdy matrons and spindly shopkeepers running among the bad guys and getting in the way. There seems to be no penalty for shooting them, though.

Have Gameplay Will Travel

Outlaws saving grace is its unique gameplay. Gunfire is lethal, so the emphasis is placed on careful shooting and stealth. Ammo is extremely limited and reloading is a necessary delay during firefights. There is a variety of weapons, but the knife and dynamite are of limited use and the shotguns have to be loaded too frequently and they're unreliable. Outlaws has scooped Shiny's MDK with a sniper scope that attaches to the rifle and allows precise aiming from safe distances. This is an excellently implemented feature and it's lots of fun in online games. LucasArts has included several good multiplayer levels and game styles (including an exciting version of "hot potato" called "Kill the Fool with the Chicken"). This excellent multiplayer support bodes well for LuscasArts' upcoming X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter and it rescues Outlaws from being a complete fiasco. But with its shallow game atmosphere, uninspired level design, and outdated graphics engine, Outlaws isn't exactly the fastest gun in the West. Instead, I'd call it the "Could Have Been" Kid.

(Egad, it's kind of embarassing to read something you wrote four years ago...)

I loved Outlaws and I didn't play it until I got it bundled in with my Monster 3D (A3D 1.0) sound card. I don't remember the specifics of the game other than some of the sniping sequences and the cool cutscenese that drove the game along. I rarely finish games and this one I couldn't quit playing. I have to dig it up and install the D3D patch and try it out again. I'd have to give it a big thumbs up from what I remember.

Age makes everything new again, even crusty game reviewers. ;)

I enjoyed it as a multiplayer game, and I despise deathmatch games. There were still campers using the scoped Winchester rifle, but they shot so slowly you had a prayer of running for safety if they missed that first shot. :) And the fairly realistic reload time made you paranoid whenever you had to reload.

I almost look at it as a "tech demo" of its time. If they'd been given maybe the Jedi Knight engine to work on (which came out shortly thereafter if I recall) and some AI programmers for a sequel, it coulda been mighty interesting.

I'm still not quite sure why they'd bother with a patch this far down the line. Maybe they're so busy hiring outside developers (good ones for sure) the in-house people have nothing to do now. :)

I *still* play Outlaws deathmatch, but you're right, the Winchester scope makes the game almost unplayable on any of the bigger levels.

Anyway, yeah Jeremy Soule has done some great stuff, and the Outlaws score (and the Full Throttle/Gone Jackals deal) are great as well. It's a shame that game soundtracks aren't highlighted more -- one of the things about the Japanese game culture that's a plus.

--- Alan

I have no problem with Chick's review as written Jeff. Aside from his focus on backstory, Boss, and cutscene inconsistencies and him -- somewhat elegantly/ somewhat clumsily -- comparing this *game* to a film like Unforgiven, it's an accurate review that highlights the game's obvious faults.

I enjoy the music and especially the wonderful cutscenes more than he did... but, his remarks about the game engine are dead-on.

Oh, he also forgot to mention how much *fun* the game is... I'll assume he was considering that factor carefully when he scored it.

-Andrew

Outlaws is a kind of "love it or hate it" deal for a lot of people. I loved it, but every time I convinced one of my friends to give it a try, they'd come back two days later telling me how much they loathed it. Different strokes, I guess. It actually plays a lot better than Duke Nuke'em in my opinion. I had to boot up Duke and Outlaws for a project a couple of weeks ago, and man did Duke stink.

Oh, and the music for Outlaws was done by Clint Bajakian. He actually did several scores for Lucasarts games. I had the pleasure of meeting him at some function here in San Francisco a month ago. He left Lucas and is now doing freelance work. Nice fella.

All this talk about Outlaws got me to dig it out and install it, apply the patches, etc.

Except I can't apply the patches.

I downloaded OL_v11.exe from the Lucasarts site and it's asking for a password to extract the files.

???

Errr?

Maybe grab it from Avault instead?
If you're on broadband I'd be happy to email it to you Gordon.

-Andrew

Nope, I'm stuck in rural Kentucky and at the mercy of a local phone company. Hence, I will forever live too far away from their CO to get DSL (cable and ISDN aren't options either).

I even tried grabbing it from "The Patches Scrolls" site and got the same password problem. I'll try Avault, but I suspect it will be a repeat of the same dilemma.

Taken care of. The patch ran fine when I tried it in Safe Mode.

Jeez, Fatbabies is at it again with the orchestra hiring stuff. Apparently they now believe that hiring a 60-piece eastern European orchestra is somehow better (and much more economical, that I can agree with) than a local 100-piece orchestra.

While I agree on the pricing issue, and while I'm sure the quality is similar, the difference is in orchestra sizes. You don't bill large orchestras simply because they are large, you get a large orchestra because you have a lot more flexibility as far as composing goes. Ultimately a good 100-piece orchestra will produce a more fulfilling sound (and will more than likely include more brass) and have more texture than a smaller, more homely orchestra.

If you don't believe me, check out Giacchino's Lost World game soundtrack, then move to Medal of Honor, and then to Medal of Honor: Underground. Lost World has 30-40 pieces, MoH has 60-70, MoH:U has 60-70 plus choir. And they sound progressively better.

As far as development issues.. what development issues? The game is being externally developed -- all EA has to do is marketing, packaging, and other outside goodies. Spending a little extra money on what many consider to be a future hit (not to mention a popular series of games) seems to make sense to me. Why it doesn't to the various wackos at Fatbabies I have no idea.

Oh well, just venting.

--- Alan

Yeah, a 70-100 musicians is typical modern size for a full orchestra. Plus choir if necessary.

The size and richness of the sound has to do with the makeup, though. The Boston Pops are a little small (they're a subset of the Boston Symphony Orchestra) but they're brass-heavy and hella loud. =)

For a game, though, I would think that 60 is just fine. I mean, in the context of a recording studio as opposed to a live performance, I really think the difference between a 60 and 100 musicians would be lost on 99.9% of everyone who plays the game.

There might be some real value in working with a US orchestra where the composer can deal directly with the musicians than using an Eastern European group where the conductor, and possibly a translator on top of that, are your only go-betweens.

Ultimately, if recording in the US with an 100-piece setup costs $50k and it would only cost 1/10th that overseas, I think it's worth it to do it here with the bigger band. I mean, what's a $45-50k difference in the budget of your $4 million game when it's for the MUSICAL SCORE. Then engine is gonna cost 20 times that alone.

"The size and richness of the sound has to do with the makeup, though. The Boston Pops are a little small (they're a subset of the Boston Symphony Orchestra) but they're brass-heavy and hella loud. "

My Dad was a professional violinist, so this is a subject I know a bit about. (One was bound to show up sooner or later.). The pops orchestras that are formed from major U.S. symphonies, like the Boston, are basically the orchestra regulars minus the principal--first chair--players. The principal's contracts are usually fat enought for them to pursue more highbrow interests when the regular orchestra isn't involved. As Jason's post indicated, some "irregulars" will also be hired for the pops schedule, like electric guitars, vibes, and extra brass. For many brass players, especially, this can be an important gig. A friend of mine who is a card-carrying member of the musician's union as a trombonist, but feeds himself as a law librarian, says the following is a standard brass player's joke:

Q: How does a trombonist answer the phone?
A: Hello, Domino's.

Yeah, that's true about most Pops orchestras (that they're the standard symphony - principals). The repertoire is generally a little more, what's the word I'm looking for? Mainstream?

Historically, "Pops" was short for "popular orchestra." The Boston Pops started the tradition in 1885 when the BSO conductor decided to hold concerts of "light classical" music that would be easier for the general public to get into, rather than whole symphonies and stuff. It only took something like five years for them to start officially calling the concert "Pops" and other orchestras started "Pops" concerts themselves in short order.

Back then, it was the whole orchestra. I really don't know when the first-chair members started sitting out.

Q: What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?

A: A drummer!

(Old guitarist joke...)