"On Nov. 22, 1997, 13-year-old Noah Wilson died about an hour after a knife wielded by his friend on a South Norwalk sidewalk severed his aorta, according to police reports. The slain boy's mother, Andrea Wilson, filed suit Nov. 22 � the third anniversary of Noah's death � against Midway Games Inc., a Chicago-based company that manufactures �Mortal Kombat� for home video games and arcades.

"The suit alleges that Noah and his friend were playing the game at a store and were on their way to see the movie �Mortal Kombat: Annihilation� shortly before the stabbing occurred.

�Mortal Kombat� is described in the suit as a �realistic, violent and bloody fighter game that rewards its viewers� �killer responses.�� The suit describes how a player �finishes� an opponent by �ripping another�s heart out� or by �tearing off his opponent�s head, leaving his spinal cord still dangling.�

"Wilson�s friend found a kitchen knife on the sidewalk as he, Wilson and three other friends walked to a nearby cinema, the suit states. Police reports on the incident have described the same scenario. The friend, �who was still feeling the effects of and was controlled by the Mortal Kombat video, picked up the knife and began wielding it in the direction of Noah Wilson and the other juveniles in simulated action moves from the video game Mortal Kombat,� the suit alleges."

What do you think? Should Midway be held accountable? Comments?

That seems like a cold response. I'm no longer convinced that all these things kids are doing is just coincidence and brought on by upbringing, etc. I watch my own kids very closely and the things they imitate are often the things you don't want to ever see them do.

Children, especially small ones, learn everything by watching all that goes on around them. They are easily confused by violence. They can't seem to connect the dots when people are hurt. It's a sad reflection on our own society.

Life is hard, it's gruesome and it can be devastating. We can handle violence in all its forms when we hit a certain age mentally. I don't think 13 is that age.

What do we do about it? I couldn't begin to tell you... although a few more game developers that have children would be very welcome.

--Dave

See my post in the St. Louis thread. This is basically the same thing. The mother should sue herself instead.

Marcus

"That seems like a cold response. I'm no longer convinced that all these things kids are doing is just coincidence and brought on by upbringing, etc. I watch my own kids very closely and the things they imitate are often the things you don't want to ever see them do."

Well, in this case it just seems like the kid was doing what kids have done forever -- he was playacting. We played army when I was a kid. I'm sure if we were out walking around and we found a loaded gun, one of us would have picked it up and something tragic might have happened.

These were 13 year olds. I can't believe that they were so into playing Mortal Kombat that they thought they could literally stab one another and then hit a reset button. I'd have to think that the stabbing was an accident and wasn't intentional.

Well, in this case it just seems like the kid was doing what kids have done forever -- he was playacting.

But isn't that kinda the point? I mean, these people go about these lawsuits so stupidly when they do seem to have a legitimate gripe. So I'm with you there that this may not be a great case to use as a stepping off point for discussion.

But, if the boy couldn't walk into an arcade and see people's spines being ripped out, hearts pulled out of their chests and people (who are digitized so resemble humans pretty closely) blown into bloody chunks and bones, he may never get the idea to pick up that knife and playfully shove it in his friends guts. He may have been play-acting the game's events. If he did that, there's some legitimate cause to have the game removed from a public place.

I think you have to look at the kind of entertainment that existed when we were kids and what there is now. No one would have dared make something like Kingpin or Soldier of Fortune way back when. If they did, society would have removed them like a cancer. We just didn't have the same kind of horrors on our screens that kids see now.

With my two kids (2.5 years and 7 months), I've really noticed that it's SUPER HARD to keep certain things from their eyes. Things that really tear out their innocence. Is it good for them? Are they being affected? The answers for me are no and yes. I don't like my 2 year old talking about shooting things. He doesn't understand the consequences of shooting things and can't at his age. But I can't keep that kind of thing from him because it pervades society. It's now accepted as common and "no big deal".

You have kids Mark. How does it affect you? I realize that my views aren't really down with the hardcore gamers. But you know what, not many of the hardcore gamers are married with kids yet either. There's a perspective we have that many may not. Damn, this makes my head hurt.

--Dave

"But, if the boy couldn't walk into an arcade and see people's spines being ripped out, hearts pulled out of their chests and people (who are digitized so resemble humans pretty closely) blown into bloody chunks and bones, he may never get the idea to pick up that knife and playfully shove it in his friends guts. He may have been play-acting the game's events. If he did that, there's some legitimate cause to have the game removed from a public place."

Yeah, but it seems exactly like what we used to do with toy guns and such. In fact, my grandparents had a ceremonial sword that was a family heirloom, and I remember playing with it as a child. We'd pull it out of the scabbard and swing it around a bit, always being careful but still being more careless than we should have been. I really think in the Kombat example, the kid wasn't trying to cut the other kid. He was just goofing off. He might have done the same thing 50 years ago after watching Captain Blood or some movie with swordfighting.

"I think you have to look at the kind of entertainment that existed when we were kids and what there is now. No one would have dared make something like Kingpin or Soldier of Fortune way back when. If they did, society would have removed them like a cancer. We just didn't have the same kind of horrors on our screens that kids see now."

I agree that things are different now, but other societies have had fewer restrictions than us for much longer. They really need to do some studies to see what the effects of violent games are on people.

"You have kids Mark. How does it affect you? I realize that my views aren't really down with the hardcore gamers. But you know what, not many of the hardcore gamers are married with kids yet either. There's a perspective we have that many may not. Damn, this makes my head hurt."

Well, I have no problem letting them play UT. I won't let them play SOF. We don't let them see R movies. I try to control what they have access to. I don't think I'd have a problem with my 15 year old playing SOF. My kids understand the difference between games and reality.

It also helps that we don't have cable or a dish. Network TV is fairly sanitized, although it's rife with sexual innuendo.

The other thing I've noticed with my girls (5, 3.5, and 8 mo.) is that they seem to have come pre-programmed. They are difficult to shape, and you only have the illusion of control. This is my beef with the "blame the parents" argument. Really, how much control did your parents have over you in your teens? My brother and I had huge, carefully guarded plots going on that we knew were against the rules, but did anyway. My parents were very involved & caring, but never had a clue about our machinations unless we made some major mistake (like leaving a roach in the kitchen once - eep!). We would cover for each other, too. There is a famous story in our family about my brother sneaking out to go to a party while my parents were still awake. My mom started to go check on him (since he claimed to not feel well & went to bed early), so I hopped up & volunteered to check on him. I made a show of going quietly to his room, looked in and saw the obvious pillows piled under the blankets, and reported back to Mom that he was asleep. I think he still owes me for that one.

We continually are reinforcing civilized behavior by the girls, punishing bad behavior, and prevent them from watching anything with "too much hitting." Regardless, they will turn into little anti-social beasts at the first opportunity. Their favorite hobby is fighting with each other. At some point, I hope the lessons start to stick. If my oldest ever starts studying high energy physics, I'm moving into a bunker.

The key is communication. Some parents doesn't communicate with their kids. I mean there's driving licenses, gun licenses etc. Shouldn't there be a parent license too? Some simply aren't fit to have kids.

Marcus

"We continually are reinforcing civilized behavior by the girls, punishing bad behavior, and prevent them from watching anything with "too much hitting." Regardless, they will turn into little anti-social beasts at the first opportunity. Their favorite hobby is fighting with each other. At some point, I hope the lessons start to stick. If my oldest ever starts studying high energy physics, I'm moving into a bunker."

Heh heh. I agree that there's only so much parents can do. I'm sure that on some level kids have to fight at times to learn aggressive behavior, because that's something we still need.

It's weird. I can scold my 9 year old twins and they'll cry. I always think, "Why are they so upset? Two minutes from now it will be as if it never happened." But they do get upset, so I guess that's a good sign.

And to Marcus, I agree about the communication. The problem is that when they become teens, you can't talk to them unless they want to talk. A teenager will just tune you out if they don't want to hear it.

Mark

Exactly but as a parent you have to (imo) turn more into a coach and supporter. Especially girl teens needs the support of their mom/dad. I think it's wrong to impose too many bans etc, in my personal experience it's better they bring their girl/boy friends to my house rather than some car in some wood :).

Marcus

I think Dave makes a good point. To call an incident where one adolescent fatally stabs another "kids being kids" is almost as disturbing as the original incident. It isn't normal for one 13 year old to stab another.

Kids model behavior - they imitate what they see; "monkey see, monkey do" and all that. Mortal Kombat provides a very intense, exciting, hyperviolent world for kids, and I can see it having an effect on their behavior.

I have to say that as a gamer, I find the trend towards more violent, more realistic games a bit disturbing. I don't really want to know what it feels like to shoot someone. Give me Space Harrier over Soldier of Fortune any day of the week.

"I have to say that as a gamer, I find the trend towards more violent, more realistic games a bit disturbing. I don't really want to know what it feels like to shoot someone. Give me Space Harrier over Soldier of Fortune any day of the week. "

Ironically, the more realistic something is, the more disturbing it is. That's why "Saving Private Ryan" is so harrowing.

I think just the opposite is true-- cartoon violence is far more dangerous than realistically portrayed violence.

Of course in this country we're more worried about censoring sex than we are about censoring violence, which I always find highly amusing. As if sex is somehow more of a taboo than killing someone. Er.. okay.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

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Quote:

Well, I have no problem letting them play UT. I won't let them play SOF. We don't let them see R movies. I try to control what they have access to. I don't think I'd have a problem with my 15 year old playing SOF. My kids understand the difference between games and reality.

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The problem is that if they really want to play the violent game (like SOF which I haven't tried) they will play with or without a parents consent. Whether it's in arcades or at some friends house. My mother for instance would never have let me see those Cannibal movies but I saw them anyway at a friends house. Same with porno etc.

In any case (whether you ban the games or not) it's most important to check on your kids now and then and see how they are feeling and see if there's any problems to talk about. I think it's much worse when some parents doesn't listen to their son/daughter. Probably a case with those Colorado kids, it's not like you can hide severe emotional disturbances llike that.


Marcus

I'd just like to point out that if the kid were actually imitating Mortal Kombat, he wouldn't have used a knife, he would have ripped his friend's heart out with his BARE HANDS.

Sounds more like Tekken to me.

Dean

"I think Dave makes a good point. To call an incident where one adolescent fatally stabs another "kids being kids" is almost as disturbing as the original incident. It isn't normal for one 13 year old to stab another."

Of course it isn't. But the intent was never to stab. The kid just picked up a found knife and was flourishing it, probably trying to be funny, and accidentally cut his friend -- at least that's my guess as to what happened. The court records are sealed because it involved juveniles.

I find all of this highly amusing. Evil Teddy played to much Mortal Kombat and got so confused he started killing people. Goddam, hand over the money now!

The only thing this case illustrates is that civilised countries should impose death penalities for frivolous lawsuits. The sooner the better, actually.

The kid just picked up a found knife and was flourishing it, probably trying to be funny, and accidentally cut his friend -- at least that's my guess as to what happened.

You'll pardon me if I think it's a bad idea to "guess" on something like this. His mother probably has a pretty good idea from the police what really happened. However irresponsible she was is impossible to know without knowing her personally, just like the killer's intentions are sealed so we won't know what he thought at the time.

I agree with Marcus that we as parents have to talk to our kids and figure out what they're feeling. I also watch what it is they're doing, playing with, etc. But I don't think you can say that talking to kids under 10 instills in them the right understanding of these kinds of acts. Even at 13, it's not like you've got a wealth of wisdom about the world. At 13, I was still playing with action figures and other toys regularly. Sure, I wasn't stabbing anyone, but I think it's easy to see that I'm not exactly a dope either and neither are any of you. Not everyone has the same level of common sense or IQ as everyone else. We just might have to help protect the ones that have a little less on the ball.

The more we try to write this stuff off to this or that, the longer it will go on. Lawsuits aren't really the answer either. But being a good parent for your kids AND the kids that come into your home or you meet in public are the best things that we can do to keep this from happening again. Act like an asshole and your kid will be an asshole. Do the right thing, even when you know your fellow man is going to fuck you over to get ahead,and your kids may learn a valuable lesson about right and wrong.

I don't want to see our hobby get black eyes like this. But you know what, developers bring it on themselves. They ask for this stuff to happen by releasing games that even they often wouldn't want their kids to see. Then they hand them over to marketers and retailers that are even LESS responsible than they are. A great game is a great game based on how it plays, whether I can rip a guys arms off and shove the bloody limbs down his throat or not is irrelevant. But the game where I can do that probably shouldn't be sitting in an arcade where any young child can walk by and watch.

Maybe I'm just getting old... (and I'm only 28!)

--Dave

"The only thing this case illustrates is that civilised countries should impose death penalities for frivolous lawsuits. The sooner the better, actually."

Well, only if we could kill corporations for frivolous ones too. Corp. vs. corp. suits are the predominant lawsuits.

We seem to be deviating from the original question: Should Midway be held responsible. I'm interested to hear what you all think. Surely, Mark would say no. For the record, I agree. It's the parents' job to be parents. (Yes, I know, there's only so much you can do. But if you teach them RIGHT and WRONG, it'll stick. Sure, kids are kids. They'll be devious, and mischievous, but they'll know right and wrong. To a kid, there's a difference between wrong (like, you know, watching movies you shouldn't, sneaking into movies, shoplifting a piece of gum, etc.) and WRONG (killing, grand theft auto, etc.) I'm 20 years old. I know how well my mom did. I don't have kids of my own, but I've played a large role in raising my young brother and sisters. If parents are parents, and they do their jobs, a lot of this will stop. You can only do so much, but if you do your part, it will make a difference. No kid does everything exactly the way their parents say. But the big stuff sticks. Start early. It's never too early for kids to start learning right from wrong. But it's not Midway's fault. Is all the violence necessary? Probably not. But we've all played MK, and MK2, etc...We were all fascinated the first time we saw a fatality. It didn't scar us for life. It didn't make us want to kill people. If parents will be parents, kids can be kids, and games can still just be games. I think a lot of people would be surprised if they found out how early kids actually draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Don't blame the games. Parents, just keep trying. I promise, it makes more difference than you might think. Sure, there are a few bad apples (preachers' kids seem to be the worst...), but that doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, it is the parents who shape their kids the most, if they try.

"It's the parents' job to be parents. (Yes, I know, there's only so much you can do. But if you teach them RIGHT and WRONG, it'll stick."

I agree, and in this particular case, I'm not even sure that it was a matter of right and wrong as much as it was kids just being incautious. When kids find their dad's loaded gun and play with it, it's not an ethical decision they're making. They're just being foolish.

The whole violence is desensitizing argument would also mean that hunters and people who grow up on farms where livestock is slaughtered should be walking around popping people. Is that happening? Doesn't look like it. We just had a QA guy go whacko and now there's been another mass-murder, this time probably drug-related.

Well, speaking as a father of two, I think that we can't discount the overwhelming grief the mother is feeling, and the desparate need for a way to vent it. I know it would shatter my world if one of my kids were to die, let alone is this fashion. I think the mother may actually believe that the game had an effect, but the concept that a thirteen-year old would think that he could 'hit the reset button' is ludicrous.

I agree with Mark, here. The kids were almost certainly doing what kids do...roughhousing or play-acting and an accident happened. Playing with a knife you found lying in the street...did Mortal Kombat make them pick up the knife? Was it a wise thing to do? To both, I'd say the answer is obviously not, but there it is. I remember playing with bocce balls and getting clocked in the head and knocked unconcious as a kid. I could have been seriously injured...as it was, I was fine, but my sister nearly had a heart attack until I woke up. Was it smart to throw them up in the air? Nope. But kids often do dumb things. Remember, most kids think they're invulnerable, until they find out the hard way that they're not.

About 200 studies have been done seeking a link between violent movies and tv and violent behavior, but none have been able to draw strong correlations that have survived Peer Review. My personal belief is that they'd increase a strong prediction, but not much else. Consider how many people play these games, and how many actual commit these acts. There should be tens of thousands of us out there, but there aren't. Video games are 30 years old, but they haven't destroyed society yet.

I keep thinking about the theory/popular belief that used to circulate the Dungeons&Dragons made you a Satan-worshipper with suicidal tendencies. Of course, based on available data, D&D players were shown to be markedly less likely to commit suicide than the national average, and I don't think I even need to go into the Satanic angle. [Jack Chick, anyone? anyone?]

That said, I never liked the Mortal Kombat series, long before I had kids. I thought and think that it's not a terribly good game, the violence is overdone without actually enhancing the content of the game and it really is done just for shock value. But shock value only lasts for so long, and if that's the only thing they have then they're due to fade sooner or later.

I have a serious problem restriciting anyone's liberty for any reason, because it's much harder to get a freedom back than it is to take it away.

Wait a second. Isn't the motive here simply to find the entity with the deepest pockets, blame them, and extort money out of them?

I fail to see anything noble or even worthwhile to discuss about this lawsuit.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Wait a second. Isn't the motive here simply to find the entity with the deepest pockets, blame them, and extort money out of them?"

Well, the mother is only asking for $75,000. I suspect she's just angry and looking for a way assign some blame and perhaps create some meaning out of her son's death.

I agree with Dave So too. I think some kind of middle ground is best here.

Here in Sweden we have no censorship at all for games but for movies there's a board that basically reviews all movies(porn included) and sees if there's too violent content or if a R(here age 11,15) is needed. I'm ok with that for most time. Not that it really matters because violent movies get through anyway. Plus there's the challenge trying to get into that age 15 rated movie :).

Marcus