http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010521/n219708.html

The video game industry has had some famous rises & collapses, but come to think of it, I don't think Nintendo has ever had a serious misstep. The N64 cartridge format seems to have given Sony an opportunity, but it certainly never had Nintendo on the ropes.

All of a sudden, they seem like the obvious leader again.

No big surprise here, though the buzz is that Sony will cut their price to $199 also. Perhaps Sony will be happy at $249, though.

I'd call the N64 a bit of a misstep. It allowed Sony to usurp the number one position from Nintendo. It also hurt Nintendo's relations with third party developers.

That may be true, Mark, but it wasn't a flop. It sold well enough to keep Nintendo in contention, and by having a win with the Gamecube, as it seems they very well might, they'd be back on top. So many companies have had missteps that resulted in them falling too far behind to ever get back in the game.

As long as Nintendo refuses to make games geared toward adults (Conker's is an exception), I refuse to buy a Nintendo system. I'm happy with my GBC... that's the last Nintendo product I buy until they stop gearing all their games toward 10-year-olds.

Right, N64 lost the lead, but AFAIK it still made boatloads of money. That's what I think keeps it from being a 'big' misstep.

Or did GameBoy just make so much that it kept the N64 platform afloat?

Personally I think the only company that actually designs non-child games for Nintendo is Rare.

And when I sit and look at what Rare's done with such limitted power with the N64, why are they sitting around dealing with Nintendo when they could be using the PS2's power to make some of the most beautiful games we've ever seen?

Of course, maybe the Gamecube will actually give them the power they need. Three cheers for the only company that designs real games for Nintendo. =)

> It allowed Sony to usurp the number one position from Nintendo.

And Sega. Sega was #1 in the 16-bit console era. The combined misseteps of Saturn and N64 helped Sony take over.

Well, I'm an "adult," and the Gamecube lineup seems awful appealing to me. There will be sports games from EA and Sega (and presumably Nintendo), an RPG from Rare, a couple of wacky racing games (which is far more useful for married guys like me than DOA3, etc.) that are hilarious and fun at the same time. There will be a Zelda RPG soon (hopefully), a new 1st-person Metriod game, plus what looks to be a charming new real-time strategy game called Pikmin (which is NOT Pokemon mispelled), a horror-type adventure game called "Eternal Darkness," a Rare-made platformer that used to be Dinosaur Planet, an amazing looking RPG called Raven Blade, a Gamecube version of Waverace, a new "mario" game (actually luigi's mansion), etc. These are all just the early titles.

I think a lot of people are too focused on specs and "adult" games and not focused enough on what's fun. I wish people would just keep an open mind: that what is fun and worthwhile to one of us may not be to everyone else; we all have different tastes in gaming as well as in books/music/movies. I am going to get a Gamecube the day they are available; I have no plans for a PS2 right now but, down the road, that may change, especially if (ker-ching ker-ching) they drop the price.

Additionally, like Trip Hawkins, I'm sick of having to buy a new computer every time John Carmack updates Quake. My computer is two years old and can't play black and white/giants/etc. I'm deathly afraid of the Duke Nukem Forever specs. If it says "Pentium 4" I'll just cry.

"Well, I'm an "adult," and the Gamecube lineup seems awful appealing to me."

And furthermore, what do people even mean by "adult"? I'm sensing that it's either a euphemism for "blood spurting out of a groin" or "turn-based war simulator with blood spurting out of its groin". As I grow older, I find myself connecting (or reconnecting) much more with Nintendo's spaceship piloting frogs than I am with soldiers of fortune.

Spaceship piloting frogs are cool, on any platform.

My interpretation of "adult" is "I don't like Pokemon."

Hey, the original Pokemon games for GameBoy are perfectly acceptable RPGs in my books. It's the countless spinoffs that make me sick.

> My interpretation of "adult" is "I don't
> like Pokemon."

Fine, as long as you are capable of understanding that there was only one Pokemon game announced for Gamecube this week. If a Pokemon game came out for PS2 would that cause you to stomp on all your "adult" PS2 game discs?

>Or did GameBoy just make so much that it kept the N64 platform afloat?

Yup, basically.

"If a Pokemon game came out for PS2 would that cause you to stomp on all your "adult" PS2 game discs?"

That's a totally different situation. Aside from the fact that Nintendo would never (EVER) let anyone publish anything containing P,O,K,E,M,O, and N in that form or in an anagram, Nintendo, as of late, has been successful mainly because of the Pokemon name. They've made countless games around it.

If Sony started releasing millions of games based on Spyro or something, I'd flip out. But they don't.

I think Nintendo will enjoy better third-party support with the Gamecube. The carts really did scare away a lot of third parties, but I think you'll see a lot of them head back and work with Nintendo now.

And although I do like to see blood squirting out of a groin, preferably someone else's, that Pikmim really did look charming.

John T said :

"Additionally, like Trip Hawkins, I'm sick of having to buy a new computer every time John Carmack updates Quake. My computer is two years old and can't play black and white/giants/etc. I'm deathly afraid of the Duke Nukem Forever specs. If it says "Pentium 4" I'll just cry."

I couldn't agree with you more strongly. I am also fed up with the PC upgrade bandwagon. My computer IS 2.5 years old (PIII 550 & TNT2U) but I can still play current generation titles like Unreal Tournament, Sacrifice, and Quake 3.

It will be interesting to see if my rig can run games like DNF and Max Payne. My system does choke on Black & White but I think that is more poor code optimization rather than my system.

"My system does choke on Black & White but I think that is more poor code optimization rather than my system."

That's weird, Sean, because I was pretty impressed with how smooth B&W ran for so robust an engine.

But count me in with you and John T for loathing the upgrade dance. I have four systems here and two of them are around 400 Mhz rigs. I dread the day I have to upgrade both of them to run the latest MP stuff.

-Tom

If all the companies keep undercutting each other price wise will they eventually pay US to get their dang consoles? :) Here! Here's your dang $9, now take our console, now!!!

Kind of reminds me of this amusing telecom commercial I hear on the radio where this huge congomerate keeps lowering its prices to match an up and comer and finally just offers phone service for free! And then files for Chapter 11....

The Linux-based console that died recently (company folded due to lack of interest basically) used about the same NVDIA chip as the X-BOX but it was upgradeable. The idea was you'd just upgrade the video chip itself rather than an entire card, which seemed like a neat idea to me.

My curent set up (PII 450, early GeForce, 256megs SDRAM) runs most of what I still want to play these days, including Giants.

"But count me in with you and John T for loathing the upgrade dance. I have four systems here and two of them are around 400 Mhz rigs. I dread the day I have to upgrade both of them to run the latest MP stuff."

Just FYI, maintaining four computers puts you squarely in the "freakish computer junkie" category with me, Tom. Welcome!

"As I grow older, I find myself connecting (or reconnecting) much more with Nintendo's spaceship piloting frogs than I am with soldiers of fortune."

I agree with what you're saying-- in theory. Gameplay should matter more than whether the colors have giant, brightly colored cartoon heads.

http://www.smashbrothers.com/enter.html

But there's something intangible here. Let me put it to you this way. Playing that "Super Smash Brothers" fighting game on the N64.. kinda makes me feel like a fag. Whereas playing Goldeneye made me feel cool and Bondish.

Is that unfair? Maybe. But people are judged by their appearances every day; consoles are no different. Nintendo isn't doing much, if anything, to combat that perception by making their games more serious and less cartoony. I say, if you're gonna live by the Pokemon, then you're damn well gonna die by the Pokemon. Can't have it both ways.

Again, I encourage everyone to ACTUALLY LOOK at the screenshots of the games in question. Then ask yourself the key question: would playing this game make me feel like a fag?

http://e3.nintendo.com

Dreamcast has its share of fun kids' games too. But they all have a sophisticated, edgier feel, without pandering to the Kirby and Hello Kitty level of saccharine sweetness. Gag!

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

Hmmmm. Maybe Bruce will step in and render his opinion on the fag question. How am I supposed to know what a fag feels like?

Well, wumpus, I guess all I can suggest is that those of us who either know we are not gay ("not that there's anything wrong with that!") or wouldn't care either way are okay with Mario Kart.

And I'm not afraid to say I almost wet myself laughing the first time I played Super Smash Bros. as "Jiggly Puff" against my wife -- me thinking I'm doing some super smash attack to slap her upside her head and instead watching my character start singing and go to sleep while my wife pounded me with fireballs. It was not an ego-building day for mankind.

So, do these "adult" PS2 games wumpus and co. love so much actually use the word "fag" in them, or is that just the people who play 'em?

"So, do these "adult" PS2 games wumpus and co. love so much actually use the word "fag" in them, or is that just the people who play 'em?"

Sigh. You guys miss the point. I was addressing all that to Erik, who liberally uses the word "fag" in his diatribes at http://www.oldmanmurray.com to describe just about anything. I just found it a little ironic that the self-professed champion of non-fagginess would become an advocate of games that are so.. well, gay. C'mon. A spaceship piloting frog, for chrissakes?

Anyway. What I object to, most of all, is Nintendo pandering to the stereotype that games are only for children. Putting a bunch of neon colored candy kid bullshit in there is EVERY BIT as bad as putting scantily clad GOD-style tits and ass in. Sure, it's marginally more socially acceptable, but it's the SAME error in the other direction.

To be fair, Nintendo is aiming at kids, but their approach is hardly subtle and lacks sophistication of any kind. Again, look at the DC for examples of games that appeal to all ages without devolving to the pathetic level of Keroppi and Hello Kitty.

Welcome to my tea party, bitch!

http://12.1.228.185/images/hello_kitty.gif

wumpus

p.s. Don't get me wrong. I have a healthy, natural hatred of anyone that is different than myself. Different = bad. I'm thinking of packing up and moving to the Middle East, where I can really put this to good use.

I have an industry friend who was at E3 and the console she was most excited about was the Gamecube. Being completely ignorant of consoles, and wanting to--ahem--invest in one myself, I tend to perk up whenever someone mentions something interesting about a console. She was so excited about Gamecube I started thinking, "Hmmm, maybe that's the one! Maybe I won't get a Dreamcast after all."

I brought up her comments to a friend at work and he immediately frowned. "What?" I asked. "Well," he said. "The only thing is that Nintendo doesn't make any games that are violent." "None?" "None whatsoever."

"Oh."

So I guess that's what we really mean by "adult".

Amanpour

>The idea was you'd just upgrade the video chip itself rather than an entire card, which seemed like a neat idea to me.

Yeah, but do you hear the guys here bitching about having to upgrade their PC to play the latest games? Imagine if you had a console and some new game came out that required the "level 2 graphics upgrade." What a mess.

Being upgradeable is contrary to half of what is great about consoles from a consumer point of view, and 90% of what is great about them from a developer's point of view.

There actually are violent games on the N64, Amanpour. Off the top of my head, I know that Goldeneye and Perfect Dark have "M" ratings and were both big sellers.

Nintendo has definitely cornered the kid's market, but it's clear they want a bigger piece of the pie. When Miyamoto himself says he wants Mario to appeal to adults, you know there's a corporate mandate behind those words.

-Tom

Does this mean Mario will be anatomically correct, carry a big shotgun, ogle strippers and constantly yell "GIMMEE SOME ****, BABY!"? Oh wait that's Duke Nukem Never. Sorry! :)

Nintendo has had some fine "adult" (meaning mature, not pornographic) games over the last couple of years. Most of it was done by third party developers, but, nevertheless, there was some good stuff. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark have been brought up several times, and I concur -- they were both phenomenal games. I liked both of the Zelda games, too, as well as Mario 64, Excitebike 64, and Star Wars Racing. And I don't wanna hear anyone else bad-mouthing Mario Kart -- that's a fine game!

They also have plenty of games that can appeal to anyone. In fact, until Pokemon, I can't think of very many games that were marketed specifically toward kids, for Nintendo.

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C'mon. A spaceship piloting frog, for chrissakes?

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Yeah, but do you hear the guys here bitching about having to upgrade their PC to play the latest games? Imagine if you had a console and some new game came out that required the "level 2 graphics upgrade." What a mess.

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"Yeah, I hate the stupid upgrade game, because adding hardware usually causes my operating system to throw a fit. Why can't developers just optimize their damn code instead of requiring faster hardware? Maybe I'll just start blaming everything on DirectX again. "

For the record, my N64 actually overheated and would lock up after extended periods of Perfect Dark play, with the 4mb expansion pak installed.

No, I am not kidding.

After a while, I decided I SLIGHTLY preferred the original Goldeneye to Perfect Dark. PD throws in everything and the kitchen sink; I prefer less features and tighter focus to this "all you can eat buffet" school of development.

Plus the framerate was just fucking god-awful in PD. I mean abysmally slow, under 15fps a lot of the time. That plus the lack of mouse.. I just couldn't take it any more. In 1997, I was willing to deal with that limitation since Goldeneye was so, so far ahead of anything on the PC.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

Odd that I haven't seen this mentioned - but doesn't Nintendo now make developing for their consoles insanely difficult for third parties? A pretty well-connected friend of mine was describing how third party developers don't get a complete SDK - apparently for the N64 there was a ton of information limited only to internal development.

It makes some sense from a business standpoint; maybe they want to ensure every game they sell on the system is theirs? Combined with the segment of the market they own (kids, mostly), it kind of sounds profitable.

It explains why all the really good N64 games were first-party, too. Hmm.

That was true with the N64, but will not be the case with the Gamecube. Good call, on Nintendo's part!

Yeah, I remember talking to a few developers and asking them why they were developing for the PS when the N64 hardware was so obviously superior. The answer was consistent: Nintendo treated them as if they were doing them a favor by allowing them to write for the N64, while Sony did everything they could to make developing for the PS a joy.

"... The answer was consistent: Nintendo treated them as if they were doing them a favor by allowing them to write for the N64, while Sony did everything they could to make developing for the PS a joy ..."

Hi Jeff:

Is this still true today? Just curious. Has Nintendo improved in this department?

John