In the news post, it was asked:

"why does the game send the registration ID or name hash? What's the purpose of that?"

I would think it's so that the it can tell the people who have YOU on THEIR buddy list that you're on. If it can't identify the user, it can't tell who's on. It happens with the exact same frequency as the list of your friend's IDs.

At least, that explains why they'd send your registration ID. I have no idea why they'd send a name hash--if they're not sending your CD key, it does them no good to have a hash of your name and your IP address through winsock. That doesn't tell them anything about you or whether your B&W game is legal or not, even.

>We think games shouldn't send any information over the Internet without the player's consent during a single-player game, or at least make it clear to the player that the information will be sent.

I wonder how common this kind of thing is going to get? I can see why, from a user experience point of view, they don't want to pop up warnings about data being sent over the internet in every game. If *I* was making a mass-market game, I'd be very concerned that it would scare people away and only heighten privacy concerns. You could (and should) list the fact that you send data in the EULA and/or manual, but that's not exactly an effective warning.

I have a feeling, though, that as always-on connections get to be the norm and nifty single-player features can be pulled in over the 'net, we're going to see games reporting back info a lot more often. B&W is the tip of the iceburg.

The game should simply explain during installation what it does about sending and receiving data. Give the player the option to disable the feature after explaining just what it does.

"Ok, we understand the weather and the friends list stuff, buy why does the game send the registration ID or name hash? What's the purpose of that?"

So it can tell whether the game has been pirated or not ? I don't see a problem with this if you haven't pirated the game. I also can't understand why everyone gets worked up about this. Please explain.

It's just the secretive nature of it -- I don't like my PC sending data to another PC without my express permission. I'm not against game companies combatting piracy, but I'm uneasy with the idea of software programs that report back to other PCs without my knowledge.

Yeah, I have to agree with Mark on this one. I don't like games arbitrarily using my Internet connection to send data to someone without my knowledge. At home it wouldn't be a problem, as I have a dialup connection and it's almost never on when I play a solo game, but if I ever get cable modem service (in the year, oh, 3025, probably) that might get to be an issue.


Give me the choice. In most cases I'd probably say, sure, go ahead, but maybe I don't want my friends to know I'm online? Maybe I don't like anybody? :-)

Interesting news post... I'll have to go read the whole article. I also agree with Mark on this one. The first time I ran B&W, my firewall popped up saying it wanted to send info. I gave it full permission, but since I wasn't connected and usually don't connect while I play any game single-player it probably doesn't matter much.

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It's just the secretive nature of it...

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It all sounds kind of nit-picky to me. Can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal? How is anything in those packets likely to affect anyone's life in any material way?

How is someone peeking into your pay envelope before it's handed to you going to affect anything? How about looking in your window while you roger the wife? Snapping a photo of you on the can? No big deal, right?

"It all sounds kind of nit-picky to me. Can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal? How is anything in those packets likely to affect anyone's life in any material way?"

Sure it's nit-picky. I don't think anyone has said they wouldn't play B&W as a result, though.

It doesn't have to affect me in any way other than in annoying me for me to dislike it. In a broader sense, it affects me because it's a scheme that I don't want to see implemented in future software I buy, so I feel like criticizing it now when it's relatively harmless. I just don't like a software program sending information across the Internet without my knowledge and approval. The potential for harm is there.

My main objection is that Lionhead was rather sneaky about it. Just be upfront and tell me what's going on, and allow me to opt out of it.

There's too much personal information about you stored on your computer to allow for games to go sending stuff out over the internet, if you ask me. In B&W, it's probably relatively harmless, but your computer knows your credit card number, your address, your phone number -- If the company wanted to, it could have the game send it all this information, so that it could automatically buy every following game that they created, and send them directly to your house, then call you and make fun of you for falling for it!

Would they do that? No, of course not. But I'd prefer that my games don't tell anyone anything about me unless I ask them to. Thanks just the same.

Good points, though I don't quite follow the leap from B&W packets to peeping toms.

Unless I've mis-read this thread (again), choice seems to be the real point, and I can't argue with that. I wouldn't begrudge anyone the right to keep personal data personal.

For my part, I guess I don't care that much what people know about me. This may be just a side effect of what I do for a living (which involves a fair amount of self-disclosure in and of itself).

And yet, I'd sort of -like- game makers to know as much about me as possible, as I think here lies the future of gaming. Imagine a version of Majestic customized to what the developer finds on your system. :-D

Peter

Peter, I can see your point, but to me, a game customized to my system and to my habits scares the crap out of me. I play games to retreat from reality, not to have it crawl into every crevice of my down time . Just my $.02.

I agree it was a bit of hyperbole to go from packets to peeping toms, but not that much of a leap. In both cases someone is looking at something that you have a reasonable right to expect to be private, IMO.

But yeah, I won't lose any sleep over Black & White, period :-)

Sure, it's a big jump to go from B&W to peeping toms. The point is, we'd never know. They didn't ask. For a while, they didn't tell. It just went on, and a lot of people had no idea that it was happening. I don't like that. Not one bit.

There are just some things that a game shouldn't do.

Of course the way Windows stores files (that is, deleting files doesn't remove the data, just the directory entry), sending a file (as opposed to just data) could actually transmit important data from your machine without your knowledge if the program doesn't zero out the file when it creates it.

"How is someone peeking into your pay envelope before it's handed to you going to affect anything? How about looking in your window while you roger the wife? Snapping a photo of you on the can? No big deal, right?"

Whether you like it or not every aspect of what you do during life is under the microscope. Your credit rating, debit cards, tax information, etc, ad infinitum. I bet the government and organisations track information that would amaze the general public.

B&W's reporting is very mild in comparison.

That's not the point!! The point is, the game shouldn't be sending any personal information without informing you, and basically asking for permission. Period.

I can accept that the government snoops on me, though I don't particularly like it. I can accept that by using credit cards and debit cards I'm allowing commercial entities to monitor my activities--my choice, so I accept the consequences. And, in these cases, we're talking about the basic fabric of social and economic life. With a game, I don't accept or expect personal intrusions. I especially don't accept unsolicited, unapproved incursions.

Well said, sir!

I've never had any website, or any web browser software, tell me or ask me if it's okay to send literally REAMS of data about my personal computer and connection over the 'net to be logged on virtually every webserver out there.

Websites routinely track far more information than B&W does. My IP address, what ISP I'm routing through, sometimes my comptuer name, what web browser I'm using (and sometimes what plugins), what site I came from...the list of stuff they can and do pull from your machine with each connection goes on.

And they do it without permission.

Someone could argue that "oh, if you're browsing the 'net you assume that risk" but that's a cop-out. 90% of the 'net surfers don't know anything about how HTTP and TCP/IP works and have no idea what info about their computer is being sent. And they'd be upset if they did.

The bottom line is that B&W isn't spying any more than most of the webservers out there, and it's doing it JUST as secretively. It's just one of the first GAMES to do it.

"The bottom line is that B&W isn't spying any more than most of the webservers out there, and it's doing it JUST as secretively. It's just one of the first GAMES to do it."

And let's hope it's one of the last.

I'll second that. Creepy-ass game companies.

Yeah, Jason, but we do expect to be sending data when we are surfing the net. Only an idiot doesn't understand that doing stuff on the 'Net is inherently two-way traffic these days. There is no precedent for expecting your single-player game to be tattling on you.

What bothers me more than the fact that the game is sending information about you doesn't bother me near as much as the fact that there are so many people here that it doesn't bother. If the general public reacts this way, assuming that the "general public" finds out at all, then games will go farther and farther. Things always start out gradually, crossing each threshold one by one, and pretty soon we'll all wake up one morning and realize that we have no privacy anymore.

At least people are speaking out against invasion of privacy over the 'net. We need to do the same about this game. We can't let them start crossing lines like this.

"What bothers me more than the fact that the game is sending information about you doesn't bother me near as much as the fact that there are so many people here that it doesn't bother."

It's a matter of choosing one's battles. When activists for a particular cause complain about every supposed infraction, people gradually stop listening. For my part, the B&W business shouldn't be one of those battles. It's -way- too minor.

I guess I see it differently. Similar to a frog in a pot of water. Turn up the heat gradually and you can boil the frog alive. Turn it up too fast and he'll jump out.

And if I'm the frog, and I see that the heat is being turned up gradually, I'm gonna want to do something about it!

I agree that this is a minor thing. I think we all agree. But if we could put a stop to it, then a precedent would be set, and it might prevent greater intrusions in the future.

Personally, I'm dead set against boiling frogs, period.

I like frogs.

Me, too, actually. Frogs are cool.

Raise your hand if B&W's policy of sending info caused you to return the game.

Or send a nasty-gram to EA & Lionhead.

Anyone? Anyone?

They're not learning anything, and they're not going to, becuase the consumers aren't going to teach them. The worst they'll do it bitch and moan in their local games bulletin board. =)

I know. I just don't know if that's good.

"Raise your hand if B&W's policy of sending info caused you to return the game."

I publicized it on this site, and Lionhead heard enough about it to answer some questions. At least next time Lionhead will think a bit more about it.

I returned the game. But it was because I knew it didn't have staying power for me.

Guess I'm just a big ol' hypocrite.

I haven't played it and probably never will .

It seems to be selling well, but if Lionhead and EA were thinking it was going to ride the charts like The Sims or Rollercoaster Tycoon, I think they're in for some disappointment.

Lionhead even spun off a company to make add-ons and stuff for the game. I'm not sure what their thinking was.

I think it's a case of big head syndrome. Everyone told Molyneux that he's "the man" so he might think that he really is! Nevermind that all his recent games follow this same pattern of innovation with no follow through.

I think he gets bored with development about halfway into the design and just can't put it all together for the entire process. He seems to always have a great idea up front, but can't maintain that level of genius for the two years it takes to make the game. Of course, this is just an observation on my part and I could be wrong...

--Dave

"I think he gets bored with development about halfway into the design and just can't put it all together for the entire process. He seems to always have a great idea up front, but can't maintain that level of genius for the two years it takes to make the game."

I think it's just more of a focus on his part on realizing his vision and worrying about the actual gameplay in the latter stages of development.

I do wish he'd get away from the god game concept for awhile. He should take something like a FPS and try to make one that innovates but is still a FPS.

Well, Magic Carpet did that, to a large extent. But I agree to the extent that I'd like to see Molyneux try his hand at something simple and straight-forward.

Peter

I'd be happy with updated bnw engine version of Populous/Powermonger. I still have those on my hd from some abandon site. BnW lost it's appeal after few hours.

"BnW lost it's appeal after few hours."

I think the pet concept is just a bit half-assed. It just complicates the Populous-style gameplay for no good reason, but it doesn't go far enough to be fun in a Pokemon sort of way.

Give me the pet AI and then just let me mix and match pet abilities to create new pets, train them, and then battle other pets. I think I'd like that. In other words, I think you could split B&W into two games, one a remake of Populous and one a Pokemon-style pet game.

Yeah,
I agree. But for me the only redeeming things about B&W are the Creature, the creature AI, the gesture magic system (screw you Wumpus ;>) and the game engine/world.

I strongly dislike the strategic "game", the villagers etc.,

If you read Keighley's excellent Behind the Games article it's fairly plain that all the stuff I liked was part of the "original concept" and all the stuff I didn't like was tacked on to make it a "game".

Note to Mr. Molyneux: Make the "game" first. Hammer it out, make it fun, y'know - pretend you're Sid Meier if that helps... Then, time allowing, maximize the crazy cool concepts and see if they fit into the "game". Discard anything that doesn't fit. The game is the thing.

-Andrew

"If you read Keighley's excellent Behind the Games article it's fairly plain that all the stuff I liked was part of the "original concept" and all the stuff I didn't like was tacked on to make it a "game"."

That's a typical Molyneux approach, from what I gather. I think it's great for being creative, but rotten for gameplay.

Even if the tacked on stuff wasn't appealing to you, what would B&W have been without it? Suppose you just got your creature and tried to make sure your village prospered, or paid you tribute, etc.? How soon would you tire of that?

I just noticed that they removed the B&W board from the lionhead site. For years it was there, full of kids and grown ups alike, talking how great it will be, the creature and the game, full of hype and all around fanatics and now that the game came out they removed the board? What's the reason behind this, were they tired of ppl bitching about missing this or that feature and overall crap?

"what would B&W have been without it? Suppose you just got your creature and tried to make sure your village prospered, or paid you tribute, etc.? How soon would you tire of that?"

Very soon... maybe. But no sooner than I tired of it as it was released. I dunno, I have this terrific urge to play with and teach my creature but almost no urge to do so within that game. Isn't that an odd situation? But your point is taken.

Maybe if things had been more conventional. ie, typical RTS style warfare (more in the hands-off Caesar III model) with the creature in as mega-support? Or maybe, as you suggested, training your creature and sending him to wreak havoc/make nice at will with you watching and prompting as you see fit.

A better combat mode is needed.

Any villagers involved should be a lot more autonomous. Playing God, to me, doesn't mean playing errand boy/Mr. Fixit.

-Andrew

Looks like the boards were moved. Try this link:

http://boards.bwgame.com/index.php

Hope that helps!

Thanks Mark, I saw the link to bwgames when on the msg board page on Lionhead but I was just curious why they moved the board. I don't want to go there, hehe, just wondering why after years of having the board it's not there now. I was reading some reviews of BW and found this

"I've heard the same complaints (poor AI, dull single player, bugs, amnesiac creatures etc) from other people, and the game's official messageboards are full of this kind of stuff."

It seems I have my answer, this quote was from the infamous Eurogamer review, hehe, the guy totally blasted the game and his comment section is full of people. On one side you get fanatics who spitefully defend the game and say they love it, on the other people who don't, it's a fun read, I had few laughs there:)

"I agree. But for me the only redeeming things about B&W are the Creature, the creature AI, the gesture magic system (screw you Wumpus ;>) and the game engine/world."

Hey, I'm hardly the only person who thought the gestures were a pain in the ass. I remember quite a few PlanetCrap posters talking about that completely independently of me.

That's it, I'm putting voice recognition in my next game. It'll only be 90% accurate, but it will be hailed as a revolution in gaming mechanics! Besides, training your voice so the game recognizes it is "part of the fun". Right? Fun!

Black and White is one of those games everyone should play but almost nobody will finish.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

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Black and White is one of those games everyone should play but almost nobody will finish.

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I think the game was interesting when I started playing it, but it rapidly lost charm as I went. A little too much tedium and repetition to hold my interest. I never thought the "different" things about it, like the controls or the spellcasting system, were detriments, and actually found them refreshing. One exception, though, was the movement. I found that to be very hard, and very non-intuitive.

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One exception, though, was the movement. I found that to be very hard, and very non-intuitive.

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