What do you think of this surprising news? Post your comments.

A moment of silence for the passing of a great console system... alright back to work.

Yeah, it's rather sad. It really is a nice system. Sega seemed to do everything right. Nice games, including some really innovative ones, a lot of marketing, a good price point, etc.

It's kind of scary and makes me wonder if Sony can be dislodged -- not that I want that, necessarily, but competition is a good thing.

So now we're back down to three players. I guess the question now is who's going to be second and who will be the new Sega, residing in third place?

It's strange, really...I remember the Sega Master System -- around even before the NES, but only by a few months. Sega was one of the first to have a video game console -- at least, as we know them now -- and now, they are dropping out of the race. Wow. I think I even still have my old Master System. Maybe someday it'll be worth something...

Where's their source for this? There's no quoted person from any part of Sega here. With something this gigantic, I'll wait and see. It's entire possible this will happen, but God I hope not. I really don't want a PS2 at all.

--Dave

Up until recently I've had a fairly large disposable income and have owned every console since the NES. I don't understand why the Dreamcast never caught on. The system seemed to have everything going for it. It was released well in advance of the PS2, and has a number of fantastic and unique games, and every gaming genre is well represented.

What went wrong? Is Sony's marketing muscle to blame? What does this mean for the Xbox? Can Microsoft's marketing overcome Sony's?

On a side note: I saw sales numbers somewhere maybe at Gamecenter relating to console vs PCs. Seems consoles and video game sales are down from last year, while PCs and PC game sales are up. Are all these companies bailing on the PC and running to consoles making a huge mistake?

The last 4 game systems I bought as they came out were the the Atari Jaguar, The 3DO, Saturn and the Dreamcast. I am the kiss of death.

Sega's biggest problem is their huge debt generated mostly from failed arcade and admusement ventures in japan. (How long has the ressesion been over there?) They just didn't have the capital to wage war on this level.

Rob, you didn't buy a PS2 did you?

Perhaps you should call Microsoft and see if they'll pay you not to buy an Xbox.

No I didn't. So Sony can take a big sigh of relief. However I have an Xbox on pre-order.

Dave, Sega's official response is "no comment" but the story's all over the Japanese press according to gamers.com.

I think if the story was false, Sega would have responded more forcefully.

Bob, I don't understand it either. The DC was far and away the best system to get even this past Xmas season. I would have thought that any console sports fan would have grabbed one to play the 2K series of games. My oldest son loves those games. Our PSX collects dust now.

It does make it seem like both the Xbox and the Gamecube have a steep uphill battle.

In the Gamecube's defense, Nintendo has been doing it a long time (yes, so has Sega), and has been more successful at every step then Sega. The SuperNES was more successful than the Genesis, and the N64 was worlds more successful than the Saturn. So, it would seem that Nintendo may be able to survive where Sega died.

As for the Xbox, Microsoft is by far the most recognizable name in the technology world. Sure, they are trying their hand at something new, but perhaps that could work to their advantage. It wouldn't surprise me to see the Xbox die as well, considering that it is Microsoft's first attempt at a console, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see it be incredibly successful, either, because it Microsoft "Next Big Thing."

A lot of the responses I've heard about the PS2 have been more of disappointment then of rejoicing. Perhaps this will cut a little slack for those consoles coming out in the next six months.

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but I wouldn't be too surprised to see it be incredibly successful, either, because it Microsoft "Next Big Thing."

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Touche!

But Bob didn't have quite the level of advertising that the Xbox does. And, like I said, I wouldn't be surprised to see it flop. We'll just have to wait and see.

Heh -- yeah, you should extort money from Microsoft, Rob. "Send me free PC games or else I won't cancel my Xbox order!"

Here's what gets me... why didn't Sega do what Sony has done and just fucking LIE to the media left and right about how great the system is? Microsoft should start throwing out the lies now because it really seems to me that the way to win in the business world now is to release lies and innuendo to the press and let them blow it out of proportion to the rest of the world creating "hype".

I can't sit back on this and just say "Oh well". Sega made some of the most innovative games in the world in their history, they also have given me standards in a console (modem, VMU, 4 controller ports, analog trigger buttons) that NEITHER of the other players wants to give me in full out of the box in this generation. It's cliche, but this IS a sad day for gaming.

--Dave

Nintendo is like a roach that can survive a nuclear blast. I've heard they have billions in the bank. They also have properties that Sony and the rest would give their right arms to have -- Pokemon, Mario, Donkey Kong, and on and on.

They're also the only console maker that aggressively goes after the kiddie market. There may be a bit more money in the teen market, but the kiddie market ain't bad. I say this as a parent who has to buy videogames as presents. Mario's a sure bet.

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But Bob didn't have quite the level of advertising that the Xbox does.

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Incidentally, I've never been a big console gamer, but I've been toying with the idea of picking one up in recent weeks. The Dreamcast was at the top of my list, PS2 and Xbox notwithstanding.

I may go ahead and get a DC anyway.

Mmmm... Crazy Taxi... :-)

The Xbox is not microsoft's first console no matter what their PR says.
First there was the WMD (Windows Modular Device) which they designed and then had Tandy build it. It was called the VIS and cost Tandy so much money that they got out of the computer hardware business.
Second there was a game system Microsoft designed with Sega. In thew end it would have cost too much and Sega had the quickly cobble together what became the Saturn.

If memory serves, the media frenzy surrounding the Dreamcast launch wasn't exactly zero, either. Maybe they weren't as rabid about it as they were for the PS2, but the hype was definitely there.

The media has discounted Sega since even before and during the Dreamcast launch. It was a "surprise" when the DC beat all expectations and broke every record ever set for a console release in the first week and later the entire Christmas season. Sony's hype machine made sure that record didn't stand, but the press had pretty much forgotten about the DC by this year.

We're talking mainstream press here, not the gaming press who have been on and off with their coverage. Some sites seem to be pretty gleeful with Sega bowing out. When we're all playing only Madden football (and hating the fact that it hardly changes from year to year) in a few years, those that lament the loss of competition need only look at their inability to think for themselves as the cause.

--Dave

http://www.segaweb.com/news/0101/061.html

http://boards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=2267626&replies=0

For what they're worth.

I'm talking about the mainstream press, too. DC news stories were being reported on the local radio stations here, before the thing even hit the stores. Coverage of launch day sales and constrained supply did not originate with the PS2.

"The media has discounted Sega since even before and during the Dreamcast launch."

That hits the nail right on the head. The press was saying the Dreamcast didn't have a snowballs chance with the PS2 and the (yet unnamed) Gamecube coming out within a year of it's release. I remember seeing a report on CNN of all places saying that the Dreamcast was going to be nothing more than a way to make Sega declare bankruptcy sooner rather than later.

The Dreamcast impressed me at every turn. Great games, originality, and graphics that even the PS2 has trouble rivaling. The game selection on the Dreamcast's day of release was 10 fold better than the selection of PS2 games when it was initially released. It's a sad sad day if Sega is indeed bowing out of the consol market all together.

Hopefully they've sold enough consoles and still have enough manufactured to make it worth wile for the game companies to continue releasing games.

Once again, the rumors of Sega's demise seem to be greatly exagerrated.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-4575165.html?tag=unkn

How many times does a news publication have to report that there is no truth to these rumors before the major news services get the hint?!

If any of you doubted my mention of the major news media's slanted coverage of Sega, please read the above story. Buried in it at the bottom after all kinds of analyst quotation and speculation about their demise is the quote...

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"It is not Sega's policy to comment on rumors and the company has not made any statement regarding ceasing manufacturing of Dreamcast or development for other videogame platforms," the company said in a statement.

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Aw hell... here it is linkable...

CNet News Story about Sega's press release

--Dave

Shucks, just when I went and got myself a Dreamcast to boot. I get back into cool console stuff, and this is what happens?

Oy.

-Thierry

Well, slow day at work, so I've been doing a lot of reading up about this all over the place. Sega is denying all over the place that they've released any information about no their "lack of commitment to the Dreamcast". Never once have they denied the story that they will stop manufacturing the Dreamcast as of March 2001. They deny that they're creating games for the PS2 and X-Box and they reiterate many many times that "We are committed to the Dreamcast. We have over 100 games slated to be released in 2001", but never do they say they will continue to manufacture it.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

You are probably right Jim. Sega probably figures that at the end of March they will have enough Dreamcast on hand to carry the demand till the normal end of life. Still its a sign that its the end of the road

Companies like to be the ones who make the official statements, so Sega not commenting on the story isn't surprising.

Also, contrast this with the rumor that was out weeks ago about Nintendo buying Sega. That story was greeted with loud denials from Sega instead of a lot of "no comments."

No matter how good the system is, if Sega's losing money by manufacturing it, it probably makes sense to cut their losses at this point. As much as I like it, it probably will begin to pale as second gen PS2 titles come out and the Xbox and Gamecube arrive. Sega may very well be able to make more money by making games for all platforms, including the DC, and cutting their manufacturing and marketing expenses for the console.

Actually Sega did comment and say that it was yet another rumour set out to ruin Sega:s reptutation (expect lawsuits against other companies sometime inthe future). dreamcast.ign.com

In addition. Next week(or shortly thereafter) Sega will reveal a couple of major news regarding Sega:s future. Not only might Dreamcast itself become upgraded but they are actually planning to include "Dreamcast" technology as a chip to be inserted in Set Top Boxes and other home pheripheals. As someone involved in the next genereation home entertainment I can say that the Dreamcast Set Top Box might be among the greatest guerilla-marketing attack ever if it succeeds. Tomorrow's boxes will then be able to deliver not only DigitalTV plus DVD-on demand but Dreamcast on demand as well, on the lastest broadband technology. If they do that then Sony should be thinking about their own strategy instead of spreading "rumors" :).

Marcus

And Lee Johnson. That's exactly what I did 2 weeks ago, wasted about 500$ in one week :). Don't regret it for a second, Soul Calibur and Virtua Tennis alone was worth it but also Jet Set Radio (talk about innovation).

Getting Crazy Taxi this week (found a used copy since all new ones are sold out).

Btw to all those who think that Dreamcast will meet the Grim Reaper. Dreamcast took 45% of the overall console sales in Europe over the christmas. It's doing pretty okay in USA too, not as well as SEGA hoped but then all console sales went down. I think PSO online and other goodies might give some further boost this year. And as someone else said in a dreamcast board. Even if it went belly up today we would still have 40+ top-quallity games to play over the next years.

Not even Intellivision had this many in total (my only console ever except for DC and one of the best made imo).


Marcus

I dunno Marcus -- I just talked to a PR rep at one of the game companies heavily into the consoles, and she wasn't surprised by this news. In fact, she heard from numerous stores that they would be phasing out DC games after this past Xmas.

Anyway, we should get some official response from Sega of Japan soon. They can't let this story go unanswered.

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if what's going on is that they're going to cease producing the current DC and focus on the set top box and stuff like that.

Sega has constantly put down these rumors. How many times do they have to tell everyone that this isn't what's going on before anyone believes it? Just because for the last 10 years people have been claiming that Sega is going to produce games for other consoles doesn't make it true. As one person noted on the Sega USENET newsgroup, this rumor is like a cancer, it keeps coming back.

Sure, Sega COULD produce games on other consoles. In fact, I'd say they should port the hottest properties to Xbox, PS2 and others. But not for 6 months to a year after their release on Dreamcast. Besides, if everyone thinks Sega games are so great they should be on PS2 and Xbox, WHY DON'T THEY OWN THE SYSTEM THEY ARE ALREADY ON?! That seems like common sense to me, you buy the console with the best games, not the most potential for the best games.

Right now, the DC is successful in the US and Europe. There's no two ways about it. The numbers showed they outsold everyone in Europe and they have reached at least 4 million in the US. That's more than enough to sustain a software business. This year sees some of their biggest games yet to come. Phantasy Star Online, Shenmue 2, Sonic Adventure 2, Crazy Taxi 2, Virtua Tennis 2, Hundred Swords, the recently released Metropolis Street Racer, Alien Front Online, Head Hunter, Resident Evil Code Veronica Complete, Tetsuya Mizuguchi's (creator of Space Channel 5) next game which will debut at Game Developer's Conference, DAYTONA 2001 and more are on the way! All that development time won't be thrown away. Actually, the lineup of games may be one of the best in the history of home consoles. Even at this time, only 1 year and a few months after its release, the system has more must own games than any system I've ever owned short of possibly the Genesis or Super Nintendo. Throw all those games above together with Jet Grind Radio, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Test Drive: Le Mans, Sega GT, Grandia II, Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, Ferrari F355 Challenge... etc., etc. The list is enormous.

Sony and Microsoft will be lucky to have as many great games in the life of their consoles as Sega has had in about 2 years time.

Scooty, your purchase was a good one. Take advantage of any falling prices you see, play all the cool stuff that's already out and watch for all the great stuff to come. This system isn't dead yet by a longshot.

--Dave

Apparently the damage control continues. After Sega's quick release to say that nothing has changed, this list of games was posted in a release at Sega of Japan's web site, it's linked from this forum post at Gaming Age but you need Japanese text support installed and the ability to translate to read it. :)

2001 Games

If all this ends up with Sega making more consoles through the end of 2001 and the system being a reasonable success, I'd really like to see these news services taken to court for all their worth for reporting rumors as facts. Whatever happened to getting your story straight AND backed up by legitimate quotable sources? Doesn't anyone have time for real journalism anymore?

Here's a link to the story at IGNDC tonight too.

IGNDC Update

--Dave

Here's what Sega says: "the company has not made any statement regarding ceasing manufacturing of Dreamcast or development for other videogame platforms."

In the case of the Nintendo buyout rumor, Sega publicly denied the rumor. Read that quote: they are not denying anything. They're merely making a statement that... they haven't made any official statement. That doesn't mean it's not true, it just means they haven't formally announced anything. It's essentially a big "no comment."

But jeez Dave, you're awfully emotional about this. If you're a gamer, why do you care about the platform? Who cares whether it's a Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, Gamecube or PC? You play games, not a platform. Sega's a great game producer, and if they can't make the hardware they're better off doing the software.

The one thing Sega hasn't really done is say that they are going to continue to manufacture the DC past March. That would be the quickest way to dispell the rumors.
Also, most of the talking seems to be coming from Sega of America. I'd think Sega of Japan would be calling the shots on this. I'd like to hear what they have to say.

In a lot of ways discontinuing manufacturing of the console makes sense. It could be that by March they will have enough stock to get through the year and they don't really see a strong future for the system beyond that. It's hard to imagine that the DC would sell well in 2002 with the PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube all sitting on the retail shelves. It would have a price advantage, but in some ways it would be competing with the N64 and PS1 as an older system, if those are still being sold.

you know, I think Sega is pulling the plug a bit too early on the DC (as it seems even the stores are). . . there seems to be alot of games still coming out for it. . . they could have waited at least til mid year. plus alot of stores are dumb enough to have low supplies of DC games and have big stacks of PS2 games, and this is when i see alot of ppl standing in the DC aisles looking for DC games that are not there (nobody's in the PS2 aisles!). . . what idiocy (BEST BUY).

theres still a few pc ports to DC that interest me as well. . . namely System Shock 2 and Half Life. imo, the DC is the first console that feels like a PC type game unit. . . i could actually browse with the damn thing and dl some added game stuff. i actually reccomended to my aunt that she get a DC to browse the net!!! am i nutz or what?!?!

anyway, the DC is a damn good console that just got blasted . . . and now were gonna be stuck with Billy Bob's UghLee Box and an overhyped hard-to-develop for PMS-TWO! oh well, i dont care i play pc games. . .wait those are going to die so they say!

etc

SEGA:s statement on the "future" goes like this:


"Dreamcast technology will live on, but not through the current "Dreamcast Console." What this means is that Sega has found cost efficient and better ways at expanding the Dreamcast user base, without losing $100 a pop on the Dreamcast console. Think DVD Players enabled to play Dreamcast software, set-top boxes, third party manufacters releasing their own version of the Dreamcast, a $70 computer chip/card that allows PC users to play ANY Dreamcast game with DIRECT ACCESS to SEGANET (if you didn't know, SegaNet ALREADY supports online computer games), whereas PC users can simply buy a SEGA DREAMCAST GAME (like NFL 2k2), put it in their computer, and play the game online or off! You won't even need a thing called the BROADBAND ADAPTOR, just use your existing dial-up account or your ethernet port! The servers on future online games will be filled and alive, unlike ANY online game for Sony's Playstation 2, as the online user base will be forever stunted as the modem / ethernet adapter will be sold as an "add on."

Also, by not producing any competing hardware (instead licensing Dreamcast technology), Sega escapes a clause in Sony's game developing contract which states that a company producing competing hardware can't develop for a Sony system. Now Sega will be able to supply Sony Playstion 2 gamers with some games, probably a Sega classics disc, ports of older Dreamcast games, and ports of top quality Dreamcast games. In all cases, Dreamcast versions of these games would be SUPERIOR and offer online play! Not to mention Sega releasing games on the Gameboy/Gameboy Advance, thus driving software revenues to the MAX."

The rumour of DC:s death is greatly exaggurated :).

Marcus

"SEGA:s statement on the "future" goes like this:"

All of this still boils down to "we won't make any more Dreamcasts past March 2001." That's a fact; I'm firmly conviced of that after reading Sega's flood of non-denials. Everything else is wishful thinking.

If these plans of set-top boxes and whatnot were concrete, don't you think we would've heard about them *before* Sega was pressed into talking by the latest news? This is all just damage control talk to keep people buying DC games. Anything else I'll believe when I see it.

Finally, let's not forget why Sega was so unpopular with media and stores in the first place. It's because they were so quick to drop their earlier systems as they turned out to be unprofitable, and left their supporters out in the cold. Maybe someone could dig up the press releases Sega issued back then? :->

Maybe if I didn't know just how big the Set Top box business will be. Integrated digital home entertainment is here to stay, I don't doubt that SONY/MS and others will try to follow (let's face it they already supply a healthy doze of the tech). Bill Gates/MS is cooperating with Ericsson for a good reason :).

What I mean is that consoles are a thing of the past. From now on(speaking in 2-5 years) all entertainment will be integrated in the digital home. If you think it's just hype I can tell you that here in Sweden (and most of Northern Europe) apartments are built with this in mind. Everything is "connected" (bluetooth etc etc). SEGA is wise to realise this now and not when it's too late. Nintendo is also thinking of this if I'm not mistaken.

Marcus

I should have mentioned that I'm talking about 100mb lines not just regular xDSL or Cable.

It makes quite a difference for DVD on demand and SEGA on demand :).

Marcus

Guys, regardless of how much critical success the Dreamcast may have, you're ignoring one very important fact: the Dreamcast is directly responsible for Sega losing HUGE amounts of money for the past two years. Every news source I read says the same thing. Sega is losing its shirt, and the primary reason is the Dreamcast.

Why is it so hard to believe that Sega will make radical changes to remedy this?

Personally I'm glad the console world is taking it on the chin. It's just desserts for making me sit through 1,000 "consoles will kill PC gaming" dissertations.

In addition to the widely-publicized problems Sega has with DC, consider the underperforming PS2, which I don't think will ever live up to the hype (and I own one, so I have a right to say this). Like dubya, this one is barely getting by on the coattails of its famous predecessor, and definitely not on its own merits.

Now add the X-Box into the mix. It can only be good for PC gaming due to ease of development, code compatibility, and design. It immeditately raises the all-important least common denominator to the level of a P733, nv20, and 200mhz DDR RAM. That is HUGE.

I think PC gaming (in no small part due to the smart design of X-Box) may end up dominating the next 5 years of gaming.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

Quite the contrary Wumpus. I think Sega did the right thing. Famous quote "If you snooze you lose". There's no reason today to make a special pheripheal for gaming when just about everything can fit into a couple of chips.

Consoles as a phenomena will be dead in 2-5 years. As for PC, it will probably be there for business uses and some fringe entertainment. Most of the business uses will probably be replaced by mobile-tech, write pads etc.

Marcus

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But jeez Dave, you're awfully emotional about this. If you're a gamer, why do you care about the platform? Who cares whether it's a Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, Gamecube or PC? You play games, not a platform. Sega's a great game producer, and if they can't make the hardware they're better off doing the software.

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"All of this still boils down to "we won't make any more Dreamcasts past March 2001." That's a fact; I'm firmly conviced of that after reading Sega's flood of non-denials. Everything else is wishful thinking."

Yeah, I agree with this. I don't think Dreamcast-enabled DVDs and third-party manufacturers are going to broaden the Dreamcast user-base in any significant fashion, so the current market for the Dreamcast is probably as big as it's going to be. This doesn't mean that we won't see most of the DC games currently in development. It just means development is going to wind down for the DC. If you have a DC, you should have plenty of games this year and probably even quite a few next year, if you can find stores that sell them.

One of the problems Sega has had is they didn't have a successful older system still generating revenue for them when they launched the DC. Look at Sony -- the PS1 was the bestselling console this past Xmas. They lost a bundle on every PS2 sold, but they made a bundle on PS1 units and games. Nintendo will be the same way. When the Gamecube comes out the N64 will still sell at that nice $99 pricepoint (or lower) with a lot of good discounted games available.

Like Wumpus said, Sega has been losing money. They can see that the DC's future is limited. It won't compete against all the next gen consoles when they are out, which may be just one year from now. Halting production in March may still give them enough of a supply to last this year, which may be as far as they can project the DC still selling in any volume.

(For what it's worth)

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Sega May Give Up Dreamcast Production

By Yuka Obayashi

TOKYO (Reuters) - Struggling Japanese video game maker Sega Corp. said on Wednesday it may stop production of its Dreamcast (news - web sites) console and focus on its software operations, a move analysts applauded as a key step for the firm's revival.

Its shares surged more than 15 percent on media reports that it would abandon the loss-making Dreamcast machine by the end of March in the face of stiff competition from its major rival Sony Corp and its popular PlayStation 2 (news - web sites) console.

``We are considering restructuring Dreamcast hardware operations worldwide for the next business year and ending Dreamcast console production is one of the options,'' a company spokesman said.

A final decision would be made as soon as possible, possibly by the end of January, he said. He added Sega would continue to service its existing Dreamcast users through customer support and new software titles notwithstanding any strategy change.

Sega added it was in talks to supply software to its two major rivals -- Sony and Nintendo (news - web sites) Co Ltd. -- for their PlayStation 2 and Gameboy Advance machines.

The move reflected Sega's strategy announced late last year to return to profit by shifting its focus to the profitable software business and away from hardware.

Analysts had said that that was necessary for Sega, which would be facing even stiffer competition in the months ahead from other rivals such as Nintendo and Microsoft Corp

Sega shares rocketed by their daily limit of 200 yen or 15.75 percent to end at 1,470 yen despite a 0.65 percent drop in the Nikkei 225 stock average The rise was partially fuelled by Societe Generale's upgrade of its rating on Sega to strong buy from sell.

Its shares had already jumped nearly 19 percent on Tuesday after reports it would unveil a reorganization plan by the end of January that includes supplying software for the PlayStation 2.

Move Applauded

Analysts welcomed Sega's apparent move to exit the Dreamcast business as it would enable the struggling maker -- set to post a fourth straight net loss this business year -- to concentrate on its more profitable software business.

The firm has been bleeding red ink since the Dreamcast's launch in 1999, with sales trailing behind Sony's more popular PlayStation 2 and hefty investment cost on the high-tech player.

``Ending Dreamcast production would be good news because the company had been caught in a situation whereby the more Dreamcast consoles they sold, the more they lost,'' said Toshihiro Koizumi, fund manager at Chuo Mitsui Asset Management.

``The retreat from the business means a rise in costs, but it will do the firm good because its software business is expected to become a key source of profits,'' he said.

Eiji Maeda, senior analyst at Daiwa Institute of Research, estimated Sega was losing 5,000 to 10,000 yen per console since it set the product price at a minimum profit margin.

Sega's share in the global home video game market had fallen to less than 10 percent in 1999/2000 from more than 20 which it secured after releasing its 36-bit Sega Saturn console in 1996, Maeda said. Sony held a 65 percent share and Nintendo had 29 percent that year.

As it struggled to keep up with its rivals and slashed the price of the Dreamcast console, Sega saw a 61 percent plunge in its share price over the past year. The broad TOPIX index of all first section shares on the Tokyo Stock Exchange shed 21 percent during the same period.

``This decision would boost the possibility of Sega being reborn as a highly profitable company,'' Shunji Yamashina, an analyst at Societe Generale, said in a research report.

The move should play to Sega's strength as it has a strong tradition of producing creative, popular games for the multi-billion dollar video-game industry, analysts said.

``Sega has racing games and sports games, they have a lot of contents that users like. Within the industry, it may have the best content quality,'' said Deutsche Securities' senior analyst Takashi Oya. ``Sega will thus succeed as a contents provider and it can become a leading software maker like Konami Co ``

Soc-Gen's Yamashina added, however, that the cost of pulling out of Dreamcast production and the expense of restructuring its business were outstanding issues, and set Sega's share price target at 3,300 yen, lower than its previous target of 6,500.

Deutsche's Oya estimates the exit from the Dreamcast hardware operations will cost Sega around 50 billion yen and the hefty cost would delay the company's return to profit until 2002/03.

``Shares in Sega are likely to rise to 2,000 yen in the short term if the company makes the decision to get out of the Dreamcast console business,'' Oya said.

``But the price will not go higher since the company still faces the problem of tight cash flow and the loss of some of its capable creators.''

An exit by Sega from Dreamcast production and its decision to supply software to others would also be positive for Nintendo and Sony, analysts said.

``Sega has a very attractive content line-up and many popular software series. Sega's move will highly benefit Sony and Nintendo,'' UBS Warburg Senior Analyst Masahiro Ono said.

(Additional reporting by Olivier Fabre and Risa Maeda)

It doesn't really matter Mark. Does anyone care the specifics of how cable TV works? No I say, you care about getting good movies/shows/sports. Does cable companies make money? Yes, tons of it.

If SEGA manages to get their technology into the Set Top boxes it wont matter if DC exists or not as a box. What matter is that SEGA makes tons of money and the users get's games that plays and looks good. What matters is WHO is the content provider not who makes the chips.

Both video rentals and game shops are going to to have problems sooner or later. We made a couple of tests with DVD-on demand last year, for some stupid reason it got out on national TV and angry video rental owners called to the movie-distributor (Paramount) and complained. So they know it's coming. If anyone's sceptical then look around and see how many fax offices you have around you (zero is my guess). Times are indeed changing.

Sega does lose money on DC:s but so does SONY. I don't think any console manufacturer makes any profit on the machines. It's the games they make money on. Even better reason for SEGA to change strategy.

Marcus

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As for PC, it will probably be there for business uses and some fringe entertainment. Most of the business uses will probably be replaced by mobile-tech, write pads etc.

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Wumpus,

It's not only likelly it's already happening. Or do you think it's by random that Microsoft, IBM, Oracle and other giants are turning their attention to Mobile/Internet platforms? In Japan you have IMODE and other mobile-tech taking over just about any other entertainment platform.

And as for for cars. You will still have veteran-car races to watch, cars just like everything else are getting stuffed up with mobile technology. You will probably be able to play your DC games while you wait for that red light to change.


Marcus

"If SEGA manages to get their technology into the Set Top boxes it wont matter if DC exists or not as a box. What matter is that SEGA makes tons of money and the users get's games that plays and looks good. What matters is WHO is the content provider not who makes the chips."

What matters is what system has owners actively buying games for it. I can't imagine that the DC being integrated into set-top boxes will achieve any kind of significant market penetration anytime soon, which means developers are going to make games for other platforms.

It's like the Amiga. People are still futzing around with that technology, and in fact a few years ago there was talk of using it for set-top boxes. There's no critical mass of marketshare out there though.

If you're a game developer, you're going to make games for the active platforms. After this year, it doesn't look like that will include the DC.

What do I want a set-top box for anyway? What does it do for me?

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What matters is what system has owners actively buying games for it. I can't imagine that the DC being integrated into set-top boxes will achieve any kind of significant market penetration anytime soon, which means developers are going to make games for other platforms.

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It's not only likelly it's already happening. Or do you think it's by random that Microsoft, IBM, Oracle and other giants are turning their attention to Mobile/Internet platforms? In Japan you have IMODE and other mobile-tech taking over just about any other entertainment platform.

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Wumpus. You forgot to add that people prefer the easiest route. If you can get your DVD/Game/food or whatever to your TV without having to step outside it's preferable to walking outside. What matters is the quallity of the games/dvd:s and food you get.

Japan, Europe and USA has one thing in common. Console games almost totally dominate the market. Even a low selling console game sells from 700k and upwards. A good PC game might strike 100k if it's lucky and very few reaches 1 million or more.

I'd say that 90% of the gaming community prefers simple stuff like puzzle, fighting and driving games. You'll of course allways have local variations but all in all this is true to all markets.

Marcus

Mark,

It's not quite there yet but it's definatelly growing quite fast. Digital TV, Broadband are all beyond buzz words now. Microsoft made a deal with one of the tele-corps here with game rentals over the net. Apparently it was a big hit. Imagine then this business with 10mb/100mb lines?

Marcus

>>Sales of DC games were MUCH higher than any PS2 game sales for 2001.

Well duh. Sony couldn't produce enough PS2 units to satisfy demand; had they been able to do that, who knows how that would have shaken out. But depressingly for the Dreamcast, it was outsold by the PS1 and N64 during Christmas.

I'm not sure about the VideoGamespot report, but I saw a list of the Top 20 selling games of 2000 and there wasn't a single Dreamcast game on the list.

As for your tirade, you don't know that those facts aren't straight; no one does. Sega has not denied anything, nor have they announced anything, which probably means something leaked before it was ready to be announced.

If you're mad at gamers and how they treat the PS2, why do you even care? People's passion for whatever aspect of the PS2 is as irrational as your own for the Dreamcast.

You question the motives of people who want Sega to produce software for other platforms while complaining you don't want to spend $300 for another console? Um, could it be that someone buying a PS2 for, say, Madden might like to play Soul Caliber but doesn't want to spend another $150 for a Dreamcast as well? Also, who really wants three console systems sitting in their living room?

I love games but I don't own a Dreamcast because I find console games, with few exceptions, fairly shallow. Crazy Taxi and Jet Grind Radio are the greatest games you've ever played... for a week.

Anyway, if you're sick of hype, here's something you can do: turn it off. Stop visiting gaming websites, stop reading game magazines. You're sick of something you're actively searching out. That, to me, makes no sense.

"One of the problems Sega has had is they didn't have a successful older system still generating revenue for them when they
launched the DC."

Not only that, but people who owned PS1s are much more likely to buy a PS2 than a Dreamcast because a PS2 is apparently backwards compatible with the old PS1 games. If SEGA had any real previous success in the console market, they could have used backwards compatibility as a selling point.

The buying public, in general, is dumb. I hate to be that blunt, but it's true. They hear things like "If you buy a PS2, you can still play all your old PS1 games on it! You can't do that with a Dreamcast" and they think "So if I bought a Dreamcast, I'd have to throw away all my old PS1 games. I guess I'll just wait and buy a PS2 instead". They don't understand when people explain the horrible antialiasing of the first generation PS2 games. They don't care that the Dreamcast is so much easier to create games for that developers would rather make 10 Dreamcast games than 1 PS2 game (although, for marketting reasons, this wouldn't be viable). All they care about is that CNN is saying the PS2 is available so the should buy it. And there's a shortage? Ack! I better pay $600 for one on Ebay. I'll set it next to my Tickle-Me-Elmo and my collection of Cabbage-Patch dolls.

Ah well, I would love nothing better than to have them come out with a $100 card for my PC that would let me play Dreamcast games. Then I would have the best of both worlds.

"I can't sit back on this and just say "Oh well". Sega made some of the most innovative games in the world in their history, they also have given me standards in a console (modem, VMU, 4 controller ports, analog trigger buttons) that NEITHER of the other players wants to give me in full out of the box in this generation. It's cliche, but this IS a sad day for gaming."

Er.. X-Box has analog triggers and analog buttons. And 4 controller ports. No VMU, but the VMU was always kind of a stupid idea, IMO.

I did an article on console controllers recently that compared all of the major players, as well as a cool USB converter that lets me use the PS2 dual-shock on the PC.

The evolution of the gamepad is actually kind of interesting to me. What's next, I wonder? If anyone has any comments on the future designs of handheld controllers, please visit the article and chime in. Is the current "dual analog, rumble, analog buttons and triggers" the pinnacle of handheld controller design?

http://www.gamebasement.com/pages/home.asp?nav=articles&id=52

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Not only that, but people who owned PS1s are much more likely to buy a PS2 than a Dreamcast because a PS2 is apparently backwards compatible with the old PS1 games. If SEGA had any real previous success in the console market, they could have used backwards compatibility as a selling point. "

This is a double-edged sword. As you pointed out, PS1 games outsold everyone else by a wide margin. Why should developers target the tiny PS2 userbase when they can target the *VAST* PS1 userbase instead.. and their game will also work on the PS2.

"Ah well, I would love nothing better than to have them come out with a $100 card for my PC that would let me play Dreamcast games. Then I would have the best of both worlds. "

I wonder about the optical media compatibility though. Most DC games can be written to standard CDs and there is in fact a large pirate scene for the console. It has been "cracked", meaning you can download ISO images, burn them, and boot them up on your dreamcast for only the cost of your 'net time and bandwidth. Check http://www.isonews.com for information on that, in the dreamcast section.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

From IGN DC, which is taken from a press release from Sega of Japan's website:

"1. A structural reformation of Dreamcast manufacturing, sales and distribution is being planned. However, the company will still be continuing its Dreamcast business with a focus on software. Over 100 titles are planned for this year...."

Pretty much a confirmation of the discontinuation of the manufacturing of the DC. Emphasis on software, a "structural reformation" on the hardware side, etc. A simple "We're going to continue to manufacture the DC past March" would have been simple enough to say if that were indeed the case.

"2. Sega is currently in negotiations to supply software for PS2 and Game Boy Advance."

That rumor is also confirmed.

"3. Sega is continuing to pursue the installation of the Dreamcast architecture in PCs, Set top boxes and various other electronic devices."

Yet another rumor confirmed, and this one ties into item #1 and probably is why Sega hasn't just out and out said they're no longer going to manufacture the DC.

I don't think this last item is going to do them any good, really, unless they come up with a handheld system, and I don't know how you do that with a CD-based system -- too much skipping. We're still a long way away from enough broad band penetration to make the set top stuff fly as far as third-party game support goes, and the number of gamers who will buy a DC card for their PC has to be miniscule as well. If they had wanted a DC, they would have spent the money for the console in the first place. It's like bleem -- that will just sell in tiny numbers compared to the PSX. No one would make games thinking that bleem users were their market, just like no one will make DC games thinking that set top and PC users are their market. If you're going to go to the trouble to make a game, you're going to aim it a live console.

Personally I don't care if Sega, Microsoft or SONY (or someone else we don't know about yet) comes out with the victory. I wasted a good deal of cash on my DB but otoh I have spent more cash on booze and entrance fees in a weekend than I did on my console, the only difference was the lack of headache :). The main reason for me to spend cash is to get some fun for it, whether that means games or something else is less important. I see my PC mainly as a workhorse but also the only way I can play wargames which is a fave hobby of mine. This is how I see the future of PC, namelly hard core gamers and workhorse. PC technology otoh will be available through a number of devices, from mobiles to fridges.

Marcus

Console games shallow? Some, sure. Perhaps no great a percentage, though, than on the PC.

I enjoy computer games, especially strategy games and RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2. But for my money some console games are deeper than 95% of the tech demos the big PC game makers release. Console games shallow? Compared to what, exactly -- Deus Ex? Red Alert 2? McGee's Alice game? Diablo 2 ("click click click -- ooh, cool sword! -- click click click")?

You picked Crazy Taxi as a good example of a quick hit. But what about Shenmue, Banjo Tooie, Zelda, Mario 64, Goldeneye, OgreBattle 64. Mario Tennis is an absolute blast, and so is Virtua Tennis. As much as I like Blizzard, you aren't going to see 4 people sitting around laughing hysterically at Diablo 2 like they do with some of these "shallow" console games.

I also am about up to here having to buy a new computer ever 24 months to play the new first-person shooters.

I'm not sure I can name many PC games I'm looking forward to this year. (I can't wait to play Tropico!) But there are a number of Dreamcast games I'd buy if I had a console.

"Second, I'm mad at the gamers for being lemmings and following the crowd with PS2. The hype is out of control for the system and I can't tell you how many people I've talked to that don't even care about the games."

I don't think that's the issue, really. The DC outsold the PS2. The problem is that the games aren't selling through at high enough levels to offset the losses that Sega incurs when they sell a DC. They're not Sony -- and even Sony is hurting right now. The games are their core business. Sony's got lots of other sources of revenue and is coming off a success with the PSX instead of a disaster like Sega did with the Saturn.

Sega just doesn't have the same sized pockets. They can't continue to lose money. Sony's just started losing money with the PS2. I doubt Sony could lose indefinitely too. If they don't get better sell through on the games, they'll be hurting also.

I'm also not as enamored of Sega's games, either. Where are the RPGs? Where are the strategy titles like FF Tactics and Ogre Battle? Where are games like Metal Gear Solid and Tenchmu? I like the sports games and Crazy Taxi is great, but things like Jet Grind Radio just aren't going to be big sellers. I think they have a lot of great games, but not a lot of great sellers.

>Console games shallow? Some, sure. Perhaps no great a percentage, though, than on the PC.

I said I find them, with few exceptions "fairly" shallow. It's just my opinion, not a blanket statement. That you don't find them shallow is groovy.

Console games are fun, they're playable but I find them very fleeting, great for a night's rental but not something I'll sit and play for a month or five, or replay (as I'm currently doing with NOLF... hey kids, that's a great game) multiple times.

But that's just me.

Wow what a big thread this became :).

When i think of innovation I think of the almighty C64. It's unbeliavable how many great games I played for that old trusty machine. IMO it's been downhill ever since when it comes to innovation. Maybe it's me becoming older I don't knoe.

Tropico is scheduled for DC btw. Personally I prefer to use the PC for those. Other than that this year doesn't look too promising for gaming on my PC(except some seriously interesting CRPG:s and Matrixgames stuff).

Why can't someone make a cool console like that bio-machine in Existenz?, now that would be innovative. :)

Marcus

Existenz kicked ass, as do all David Cronenberg movies. Go see it now! Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to your local video store and rent it!

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

p.s. The Doors were overrated. Pass it on.

>When i think of innovation I think of the almighty C64. It's unbeliavable how many great games I played for that old trusty machine.

That's your memory playing tricks on you. There were just as many derivative crap games in those days, you just tend to only remember the great games of the past and block out the bad ones.

There were, say, a dozen or so truly great games of the early days of gaming, and there have probably been a dozen in the last few years.

The better games of today are indeed better than ones released years ago, and not just because they're better looking. They're more complex, they have better interfaces... blah blah blah.

But they may not be to your personal liking. Games are changing and you're just not going along for the ride. It happens.

"Existenz kicked ass"

*cough, cough*

"as do all David Cronenberg movies."

Well...as long as you throw in the qualifier that they have to have well-written lead characters played by strong actors, which limits you to Dead Ringers and The Fly...I'd agree. :)

-Tom

"Well...as long as you throw in the qualifier that they have to have well-written lead characters played by strong actors, which limits you to Dead Ringers and The Fly...I'd agree. :)"
C'mon.. scanners? That's almost a classic.

And I would argue that Crash (1996) had excellent performances from very good actors, as did ExistenZ (1999). Plus the scripts were strong and original. I recommend both very highly if you are into movies that are off the beaten path.

I have tons of offbeat movie recommendations, but this isn't the thread. If you're a movie buff, I do highly recommend picking up a copy of last week's Entertainment Weekly "top 50 dvds" issue, though! See my site's news page for more detail. Really good stuff. I just placed a $300 amazon.com order for a bunch of movies I hadn't gotten around to yet, just based on that one excellent article.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"I recommend both very highly if you are into movies that are off the beaten path. "

uhm, lemme just say Cronenberg is WEIRD. First you have videodrome with a guy who sticks a VHS tape into his innards. . . and gets a BJ from Blondie on the TV. . . then you get Naked Lunch (OK thats weird already; though a Kafka ripoff!) . . .then ppl masterbating to car crashes! (again Ballards weird! and spielberg did a movie about the novelist!) and then the weird consoles in existenz that are living and sick looking and have fleshy tones and kinda look like a vibrator/console PLUS they stick into a little port into your back...

plain ole weird . . .in a GOOD way. . .

etc

Jennifer Jason Leigh is one of my fave actresses. We are thinking of having a feature on her sometime.

Have you met her Tom?

Marcus

I just read that the X-box will be 100% compatible with the dreamcast games! Is this true? And if it is, it's a big oh I mean HUGE win for microsoft! Is this true? Also, someone was complaing that this year doesn't look to promising for PC gaming. What do you mean? This year we should have on the PC- Wolfenstein, Doom 3, Unreal 2, Warcraft 2, Team Fortress 2, Tribes 2, Black and White, Halo, Max Payne, Sigma, Commandos 2, and many more games that I can't really think of this moment. In my opinion, this year is going to kick ass for PC gaming!!

Where did you read this about the Xbox? It's news to me.

I went to firingsquad's home page and in there news Headlines section I went to the sightseeing article. The first article was X-box to be dreamcast compatible. The full article was at Gamers.com Pretty interesting stuff.

From the gamers.com article:

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Credible sources, who prefer to remain anonymous, told us that Bill Gates and Microsoft will announce at the spring Tokyo Game Show that the Microsoft Xbox will include the Dreamcast chipset, allowing it to play all Dreamcast titles.

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"Jennifer Jason Leigh is one of my fave actresses. We are thinking of having a feature on her sometime. Have you met her Tom?"

Ha ha. I've met very few famous people and personally know even fewer. I think the number is somewhere around zero.

I like JJL also, but more for her daring than her talent. She's done some very bold roles (Hudsucker Proxy, anyone?) and she does them 110%.

-Tom

Dreamcast on XboX?!? what an excellent idea. . . as long as Billy doesn't become abully and take all gaming over. . . but really if the rumour is true, Sega just sold it soul to the DEVIL himself!

WOWEE ZOWEE!!!!

etc

I've been wondering about an announcement of Xbox/Dreamcast compatibility for a while. There were some talks that took place last year between Microsoft and Sega, and one rumor then was a possible Microsoft acquisition. Since the Dreamcast runs on WindowsCE (a modified version, IIRC), I would guess the port to the Xbox wouldn't be that difficult.

While Xbox playng Dreamcast games would be cool, also the Xbox will play psx games via an emulator. That would give the Xbox a boost over the ps2. I question how useful would that be. For Microsoft to make money, it'll be from the Xbox owns buying Xbox software. If the Xbox is running someone else's software, Microsoft will be taking a loss.

BTW: If this doesn't say the end is near, nothing does. The Official Dreamcast Magazine has stopped shipping with demo disk. Didn't get a reduced price, didn't get an extended subscription, just flat out not getting the next 5 disk I've paid for. They say that Sega is developing a new approach to preview games. Well now, isn't that special? :P

Baron Calamity -- http://www.moonbasetycho.com

I think x-box to dreamcast compatibility is a pipe dream. For one thing there is just no way in hell they'd modify the hardware board layout at this late date.

Software emulation is a POSSIBILITY, though... but seems unlikely, unless you guys know of anyone working on a PC Dreamcast emulator? That could be ported over easily to X-Box. If anyone could do it, my guess would be SEGA.

I also wonder if Sega has engineers working on a PC Dreamcast emulator, with all the rumors of a DC add-in card for the PC.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

Since the Xbox is supposed to be three times as powerful as the PS2, software emulation for the DC would probably be easy enough to do. I would think ports of DC games to Xbox would be more attractive to the publishers, though.

I don't think the installed base of DC games is going to sell many Xbox units. The native Xbox games will sell the machine.

It isn't software emulation they're talking about with DC games being played on Xbox. It's Sega's Dremacast on a chip design integrated as part of the machine. Everythinng else in the box would pretty much stay the way it is and they'd have a chip with the video/processing right there to play all the DC stuff. All they need is to support the GD-ROM format and they're golden. It's probably a matter of cost.

I finally got to look at the article on Xbox in Electronic Gaming Monthly. Now I'm not buying this DC in Xbox hoopla, BUT, those controllers look awfully familiar. They even have the cool triggers I was bitching about no one having. It's a very real possibility if the DC on a chip is cheap to manufacture. Net connectivity is there and everything. In Japan, this could be just what they need to get Japanese consumers AND developers interested. Capcom worked heavily with Sega and still does. Getting them on board big time with Xbox would be major...and of course everyone wants Sega games on their machine for some reason, though they won't bother to buy a Dreamcast to play them. Gamer logic baffles me.

--Dave

I prefer to look it from a gamers view. As long as we get great games to play and waste some free time it dosn't matter what label the console/pc has. I have often wondered why IBM never tried consoles, they are known for their innovation after all :).

Marcus

Well, from this gamer's perspective, console games are just different from PC games. I'm just not into platformers, action sims (driving, flying, racing, etc.), beat 'em ups, and console-style RPGs where the fighting looks more like line dancing than combat.

I know there are some great console games, but I like FPS and RTS games and MMORPGs, etc. I don't know if we'll see those done well on the console side anytime soon. So it's not so much me rooting for the PC as it is for PC style games.

I agree with the sentiment that the games are very different Mark. It's the reason my two primary game machines currently are the PC and the Dreamcast. I get different entertainment value out of each of them. However, I do consider your idea of console RPGs a little insulting. I mean, turn-based strategy games on the PC often have the same type of fighting. PC RPGs also can often be too unfocused in their narrative with so many things to do you can't see the real purpose or story in the game without a lot of work to avoid everything else. What console RPGs are good at in combat is having you make strategic decisions about who, when and how to attack.

For example, I'm playing Skies of Arcadia on DC right now. Each battle in the game I can use different colors of my main weapon against my foes. The color I use directly affects what spells I learn because my experience goes toward the color I use. That color has a class of spells assigned to it, etc. I also have to manage magic casting points AND spirit points. Each of which have a bearing on how I can attack magically, conventionally or through special attacks (kind of like fighting game special moves). I certainly don't feel like the characters are line dancing when they fight. Plus this system (and many like it) avoid the thing that so many PC gamers moan about constantly, the lack of time to make decisions that exists in many RTS and role-playing games due to their real-time nature.

Personally, I like that the two have very different games since I enjoy many console styles as much or more than I do PC games. Not only that, but console games always seem to be more pioneering than PC games due to the relative ease of making a little bit of money on a quirky console game compared to a quirky PC game. Look back over the releases in 2001 for the PC. How many of those games are truly unique new styles of gaming? The Sims? Sacrifice? Majesty? Not too many games in 2001 on the PC were breaking much new ground, while on the Dreamcast alone there were Samba de Amigo, Space Channel 5, Seaman, Shenmue, even games like Virtua Tennis which takes a years old concept (Pong) and turned it into a fantastic strategic/action fest that's unmatched on the PC or console. It's so deceptively simple anyone can pick it up, but the depth is also there in spades.

Both forms of games are valid and I can't see myself rooting for either side to "win" since I think there are valid ideas and tons of fun to be found on both types of platform. The best examples proudly display the ability of each system to do certain things better than the other through their standard peripherals (gamepads, keyboards, mice, etc.)

--Dave

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It isn't software emulation they're talking about with DC games being played on Xbox. It's Sega's Dremacast on a chip design integrated as part of the machine. Everythinng else in the box would pretty much stay the way it is and they'd have a chip with the video/processing right there to play all the DC stuff. All they need is to support the GD-ROM format and they're golden. It's probably a matter of cost

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Everyone keeps talking about changes in the Xbox hardware. There is one thing you are missing. The Xbox is no where near final. Except for the CPU and a few bios chips there isn't even test silicon for most chips in the game box. They could easily redesign the motherboard at this stage and have a new production ready press inside of three week.

The question isn't can they, its will they

Rob Merritt -- www.moonbasetycho.com

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They could easily redesign the motherboard at this stage and have a new production ready press inside of three week.

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I think you misinterpreted me wumpus. This Dreamcast on a chip is just that, one chip. It's supposed to be easily incorporated into other devices such as set-top boxes, DVD players, portables, etc. The only thing missing is all the things the Xbox already has. You could probably bolt it on in a separate piece of silicon and it really wouldn't take too much time or effort to get it up and running. The only extra is the ability to read the GD-ROM format which probably is also rather trivial.

Once again, I don't think this is for real, but it does present a lot of benefits to Microsoft. The jump in available NEXT GENERATION games available at launch is staggering. Playing PSOne games is one thing, playing Dreamcast games, which are easily on par with the PS2 right now is another thing entirely. As long as the Xbox native games look as good as they claim they will, this would be a great move.

--Dave, who has severe gamelock on Skies of Arcadia right now.

wumpus, I'm not saying you are wrong. In consumer electronics this might not be possible. However where I work we have significantly redesign motherboards for something as complicated as a pc/set top box/game system, from concept, to prototype, to testing, to manufacturing, to in the field in under 4 weeks. So I know its entirely possible. I've heard that they have done similar things within 2 weeks but never seen it myself. However we've had things as simple as an on of switch take a year. *shrug*

Rob Merritt -- www.moonbasetycho.com

You guys suck very bad.

Sega sux very bad. Super nintendo all the way. You guys are too retarded to admit it. Get over it japanese people.

"You guys suck very bad.

Sega sux very bad. Super nintendo all the way. You guys are too retarded to admit it. Get over it japanese people."

I have one thing to say to you buddy...you have no chance to survive make your time.

Amanpour