An email sent out to all retailers :

---

Quote:

Dear Retailer,

The OFLC has refused to grant Grand Theft Auto 3 classification and has advised us that this game needs to be withdrawn from the market. It is therefore critical that this product (GTA3) be removed from your store shelves immediately and not sold to any consumer under any circumstance. Take 2 Interactive Software has lodged an appeal regarding this decision and the matter has been set down to be heard on Tuesday the 11th of December.

We would expect the findings from the appeal to be available within 24/48 hours. Take 2 Interactive Software is committed to supporting the retail channel and this product and as such, should you wish to return GTA3 prior to next weeks appeal hearing then we will be happy to provide you with an return authorisation number. However, we are committed to having this decision reversed and ask that you hold the stock in your warehouse until we advise you of the appeal outcome by the end of next week. Many thanks for your support and understanding concerning this matter.

---

And more from the Herald Sun :

---

Quote:

Virtual violence fear
By GREG THOM
05dec01

CRIME lords belted over the head with baseball bats, US soldiers lying in pools of blood and alien monsters lopping the heads off human victims. These are just some of the computer games on the shelves this Christmas.

Parents face a tough task protecting their techno-savvy offspring from a wide variety of violent games on sale.

Titles such as Ghost Recon, Alien versus Predator and Grand Theft Auto 3 contain high levels of animated violence along with increasingly realistic, sophisticated graphics.

The trend toward virtual violence comes as the State Government considers the recommendations of a parliamentary inquiry that more studies need to be carried out into the link between violent computer games and aggressive behaviour.

Premier Steve Bracks conceded yesterday the regulations covering MA and R-rated games were not up to scratch.

"We haven't regulated appropriately as we have in other areas. We need better training in retail outlets on how to sell these games and who you're selling to," he said.

"Often parents are not aware they're breaking, potentially, MA ratings on computer games."

Mr Bracks said he would ask the Attorney-General about the possibility of an R-rating for some computer games.

"There is some explicit violent and sexual content in some of those games and you'd think a consistent application across film, TV and all forms of multimedia, including computer games, would be sensible."

The Chairman of the Australian Visual Software Distributors Association, Michael Ephraim, backed the call for an R rating for some ultra-violent games.

Mr Ephraim, the head of Sony Computer Entertainment in Australia, denied the current crop of games was too violent.

He said developers were catering to a changing market, in which older players were demanding more sophisticated and realistic games.

"Fifty per cent of PlayStation 2 owners are over 30 years old," he said.

Mr Ephraim warned against singling out video games for criticism because of their violent content.

"Video games are virtual violence while on the news people are getting blown up all the time," he said.

But child psychologist Dr Janet Hall slammed violent games for their detrimental effect on children.

"The greatest strength for kids is their imagination, but it's also their greatest weakness," she said. "They think they are escaping, but all they are doing is programming themselves for violence."

---

Geezus, Australia is censorially overrun. The black and white graphic novel "From Hell," on which the movie was based was barred from import there until the artist (who happens to be an English expatriate living in Australia) made a big media stink about it and embarassed the customs agents into changing their minds.

Throw another book on the barbie, mate! We just reached Farhenheit 451!

You know, for an island populated by criminals, you guys sure have an uppity opinion about what's appropriate material. ;-)

LAUGH! Well not that many criminals. Half the country is either of Asian or Italian/Greek descent.

The rest are rejects from the British Isles.

Iocane powder. I'd bet my life on it.

I've only seen GTA3 played at Shoot Club, so I'm not entirely qualified to comment, but I still think it's a vile game. I hate censorship too, but I have to be honest, I'm not having that big of a problem with it being banned.

Supertanker's probably going to write me out of his will for saying all that. Sigh.

Amanpour

I am often paranoid that rampant censorship is only a Republican Congressman away here in the U.S., but it seems America is astonishingly liberal in at least some ways when compared to our European and Australian neighbors... Between this GTA business, and the bowdlerized German version of Return to Castle Wolfenstein, I sometimes feel quite thankful to live in the U.S.

"...and the bowdlerized German version of Return to Castle Wolfenstein..."

Could someone elaborate on this please? Are we talking the same type of stuff that happened with the "film" Pearl Harbor this year? What is different about RtCW?

Amanpour

The Nazis were replaced with Scientologists in the German version.

Yes, but do they still speak English in the German version?

- Alan

Where did I read about this... mighta been a thread on Blues News. I think they made the Nazi's part of some "cult" called the "Wolves" or something like that, and they changed Heinrich Himmler's name too.

Sorry, not sure exactly where I read this info... don't take my word for it but I think it's accurate...

"The Nazis were replaced with Scientologists in the German version."

Really? I wonder if I can get the German version here in the States. It sounds way more fun blowing up annoying Scientologists than the tired old Nazis...

I just heard from a friend in the States that GTA3 has been censored since release. Supposedly the new shipments of the game no longer have the whore easter egg, and some things like exploding heads from sniper rifles have also been pulled. Can anyone confirm/deny this? My pal was trying to buy an uncensored version on ebay because the clerk at EB told him about the changes made to the game. As for the german version of Wolfenstein, I haven't seen the game over here yet, but when I pick it up I'll let you know what's been changed. I sure as hell hope they didn't take out the nazis, cus there ain't a better enemy for FPS games than goosesteppers.

GTA3 is probably the most enjoyable game I've played in like... forever. Getting drunk (in real life) and then running through the virtual world on a drunk-driving rampage where you can beat cops with baseball bats and such is just sort of... I dunno, heartwarming. It really gets me in the Christmas spirit.

Q.E.D.

Amanpour

"GTA3 is probably the most enjoyable game I've played in like... forever. Getting drunk (in real life) and then running through the virtual world on a drunk-driving rampage where you can beat cops with baseball bats and such is just sort of... I dunno, heartwarming. It really gets me in the Christmas spirit."

Yeah, welcome to the party. I felt the same way in 1998 when playing Carmageddon. Which is even bloodier. Why just run over people when you can disembowel them with your vehicle?

I am looking forward to the PC version of GTA3, though. My PS2 copy is going up on eBay right after this.

Man, I hope they do censor the new versions. I just had visions of sugarplums and fairies for the final auction value of my UNCENSORED, TOO HOT FOR TELEVISION version of GTA3.

I'm serious, this guy is bidding for an 80 dollar "uncensored" copy of the game. Is this shit really true?

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread. Am I the only one who thinks they're playing too much GTA3? It really is an amazing game, and I finally put my thumb on what's so appealling: Most games have you doing things you can't do in real life. In real life you can't eat a mushroom, turn into a giant, and run around throwing fireballs and jumping on turtles (actually, now that I think back I seem to remember an experience like that back in college). Anyways, in the GTA games, you ARE doing things you can in real life, we just don't. So, does that make us bad people? 4 out 5 psycologists might say yes (although as far as I'm concerned, 5 out of 5 psycologists can get stuffed).

LumberingOaf

It's just as dangerous as all those movies and television shows that let you pretend to be a mobster and fool you into empathizing with them. We all know how much of a censorship magnet mafia entertainment is, right? Right. I mean, three Godfather films, Goodfellas, the Sopranos, all content-controlled from release. I think the only copies remaining are bootlegs in the hills of Idaho. This probably explains Idaho.

We need a game that has gay dudes! Your a gay porno producer and you take your help in the ass!!! =) that to me is real life!

"I hate censorship too, but I have to be honest, I'm not having that big of a problem with it being banned."

I'll simply ask you a question, what gives you the right to take away something I, as an adult, have the right to enjoy?

I'm sure someone will fire back with something along the lines of, "But it's not your right to play violent video games!"

Yes, it is. Just as it is my right to listen to Black Sabbath, watch Exorcist, and read plans on how-to make an atom bomb.

You can limit what kids read and play and listen to, but you can _not_ limit what an adult listens to, or plays, or reads.

Censorship, in that form, when it pertains to adults who are very well able to make up their own minds and determine what is right and wrong, in that form, censorship is wrong.

"You can limit what kids read and play and listen to, but you can _not_ limit what an adult listens to, or plays, or reads."

Yes Amanpour, you fink! You may limit my children but you may not limit me!

Jesus Met K, all he said was that he didn't have a problem with Australia banning a game he finds offensive.

Enter Strawman.
-Andrew

Actually, I can't imagine why the Nazis would be taken out of the German version of "Return to Castle Wolfenstein."

I heard an NPR report about a year ago which talked about how the most popular hour on German TV was an hour which featured back-to-back "M.A.S.H." and "Hogan's Heroes." The commentator doing the report was worried that this wasn't a good development, as "Hogan's Heroes" doesn't take Naziism seriously enough.

Maybe if the German government wasn't making sure no entertainment ever portrayed what sick fucks the Nazis were you would have so many skinheads romanticizing about it and persecuting the Turks who came to Germany to rebuild the country. They're taking their revisionist history from a slightly different angle than the Japanese, instead of pretending it wasn't so bad they just replace nazis with scientologists.

"Supertanker's probably going to write me out of his will for saying all that. Sigh."

All I'm saying is that a driving game that still gives you the freedom to make a decent living by hitting old ladies with a baseball bat has to be good. I'm trying to get my OLMPH (Old Ladies Mugged Per Hour) over 300 or so.

My general impression is that Germans have looked longer and harder at their WWII actions than Japanese have. This isn't based on anything solid really, just driblets I've read over the years.

As for we Americans, we still have to cleanse ourselves of the evil of the Mexican War, dammit. We've spent decades feeling guilty about slavery, the Indians, and Vietnam. We need to move onto other, neglected sources of guilt.

"Yes Amanpour, you fink! You may limit my children but you may not limit me!

Jesus Met K, all he said was that he didn't have a problem with Australia banning a game he finds offensive."

Sorry, but I'm one of those people who thinks that fence-sitters are the worst of the bunch.

Next to people who believe in censorship and banning. If the toy has a detachable head which renders a knife, like Serial Killer Barbie, then I'm for banning it. But since I don't think I can physically or mentally decapitate you with the GTA 3 box or CD, it should not be banned.

Didn't realize stating my opinion against censorship was wrong.

"Didn't realize stating my opinion against censorship was wrong."

And I said nothing of the kind. You're continuing to create fake messages to argue with. Which means, of course, that you're winning.

"instead of pretending it wasn't so bad they just replace nazis with scientologists."

Just to clarify, that was a joke; Scientology has been outlawed in Germany as a money-sucking cult, so I was jokin' about it would be acceptable to their govt. as bad guys.

Haw.

"And I said nothing of the kind. You're continuing to create fake messages to argue with. Which means, of course, that you're winning."

I wasn't creating fake messages, but if you're going to critisize the fact that I disagree with his opinion of pro-banishment, then I'll critisize your opinion.

I thought that was the way American worked, you don't like it, I don't like what you like, we argue, then we agree to disagree.

Or maybe I should ban your right to free speech because I find it offensive, like GTA 3? ;)

Since when are games used as tools for moral instruction? That's like using the TV as a babysitter. It's a shame goverments need to pass laws to protect stupid people from themselves.

- Alan

---

Quote:

It's a shame goverments need to pass laws to protect stupid people from themselves.

---

"but if you're going to critisize the fact that I disagree with his opinion of pro-banishment"

No I criticised the way you put words and opinions into his mouth. He claimed he was anti-censorship, but not exactly "bothered" by the banning. Then explained why he thought GTA3 was vile.

You came in and transformed him into this pro-censorship zealot denying him the ability to take away your adult pleasures or what not. That's called a "straw man" argument. You put words in his mouth and then you tear those words apart.

-Andrew

You boys get cranky when you stay up this late.

To bed, both of you!

"To bed, both of you!"

Preferably the same one. Get a room!

Um, ew. Mental pictures I don't need...

Actually, Germans are programmed from birth to be ashamed of their Nazi history, and are just now getting out of that rut. That's why they had such a hard time deciding to send troops over to Afghanistan, and Schroeder almost lost his vote of no confidence in the Bundesparliament over it (he combined the troops issue with a vote of no c.) Afghanistan will be the first deployment of German troops in an offensive role since WW2. All that Balkans shit don't count.
The shame of Nazi past is still so strong that you will never, not in a million years, see Germans waving their flags like Americans did after September 11th. Any form of nationalism is taboo, as is military action. Schroeder wants to cut Germany loose from this and bring his country to the forefront in global power relations, as it should be considering its other strenghts, but he's weighed down by the coalition his SPD party had to form with the Greens in order to gain power. The greens, of course, are somewhat against military this and military that...

'It's a shame goverments need to pass laws to protect stupid people from themselves.

Man, this statement is so true that it's *scary* -- sad indeed, is it not?'

Then again, you often see this line used to justify the legality of selling explosive cars. "Latin phrase about shopping goes here."

Poor Germany. How long did it take Central Asia to not feel so bad about Genghis Khan?

Japan is sending troops too...

"The shame of Nazi past is still so strong that you will never, not in a million years, see Germans waving their flags like Americans did after September 11th."

Well considering the atrocities the Deutchland comitted i wouldn't be too proud of waving a German flag either, a whole nation basically agreed to kill a whole group of people without any complaints. I'm not saying every citizen of a country that has commited an atrocity should be guilty or feel remorse (is any country really innocent with the knowledge of said atrocities?) ... but the truth that it happened and it cant be erased. The 20th cetntury was blood soaked in mindless nihilism and death im surprised we still carry on sometimes. The comprehension of millions upon millions upon millions slaughtered is astounding really. The idea of getting back to a nations pride and nationalism almost seems... pointless, whether it be Germany Russia Japan America... anyway i ramble... but it all seems moot how its cheapened thru the lens of modern "shame". How can we "forgive" nations that butchered millions (Germany, Japan, Russia, America -with the Indians-)? What does it really do? It all just seems depraved and fucked up that all we have to show for it are Steven Spielberg movies to feel guilty ... and then move on to buy some meaningless tirade on how it all makes sense in the end. Sometimes I think our culture is really just fucked up and theres nothing we can do about it except fuck up more shit while pretending nothing is going on. or maybe its just too depressing to think about...

wait what does this have to do with GTA3? pfft beats me!

etc

In a way, it's almost a shame that so many good ideas are packed into a game with such questionable taste. When I say, "Oh, what a great game!" I'm not talking about gore or even the realistic violence though a real-world setting is more interesting than something abstract as a rule. I'm interested in the freedom of movement, the combination of simulation/arcade elements with an almost roleplaying sense of vastness and exploration, and the brilliant details and writing that went into the graphics, characters, and music/voice-overs.

If all publishers get out of this is "Hmm, okay, more gore and grossness and anarchic gameplay and we'll be rich." then they're missing the point. And if that content causes more games to be censored we all lose out.

Personally, I don't mind the violence and graphic content. It's pretty refreshing to see games sans cuteness and angst at the same time. It's gritty, nasty and realistic. It's also a hilarious send up of America and American criminal pop culture. That's mature in a good way. Still, I can see that we may be crossing a line for many folks in the near future and I hope we can find ways to develop intelligent games like this that can appeal to a broader audience.

---

Quote:

Then again, you often see this line used to justify the legality of selling explosive cars. "Latin phrase about shopping goes here."

---

Great post Brian.
The GTA3 imitators are going to be even more frightening.

-Andrew

"No I criticised the way you put words and opinions into his mouth. He claimed he was anti-censorship, but not exactly "bothered" by the banning. Then explained why he thought GTA3 was vile."

I explained why I put 'words and opinions' into his mouth. Which I didn't do. I used his arguement of being 'pro-banishment' of GTA3 as a base to make my arguement against banishment, period.

If I wanted to 'attack' him and his arguement, I would've asked for him to explain in more detail exactly why he is anti-censorship, and why he thinks that GTA3 is so much worse than other games such as Carmageddon that it needs to be banned.

But I didn't, instead I 'attacked' his idea of being pro-banishment of 'anything' by launching into an arguement.

Maybe it was an ill-timed and ill-placed debate, but at least it was one.

"You came in and transformed him into this pro-censorship zealot denying him the ability to take away your adult pleasures or what not. That's called a "straw man" argument. You put words in his mouth and then you tear those words apart."

I didn't put words into his mouth and then tear them apart. When did I ever do that? I gave my own opinion about why I think it should not be banned. I gave my own opinion of why I think he should not be pro-banishment of the game. I never _once_ said he was specifically trying to do so, maybe you took the fact that I used his arguement as a base to place my own rebuttle, but that would be your mistake, not mine. I never said he himself was trying to take away my rights, I simply said that by being pro-banishment of one game, he is no better than the people who are.

Perhaps you should look into your own arguement and tell me where the fuck I ever told him what he's really saying and not saying, and where the fuck I stuffed shit into his mouth then asked him to spit it into the toilet.

Enter Strawman, Exit Common Sense.

"Maybe if the German government wasn't making sure no entertainment ever portrayed what sick fucks the Nazis were you would have so many skinheads romanticizing about it and persecuting the Turks who came to Germany to rebuild the country. They're taking their revisionist history from a slightly different angle than the Japanese, instead of pretending it wasn't so bad they just replace nazis with scientologists." - Brad

You've got this the wrong way around. The Germans aren't sensitive about portraying Nazis as bad guys, but about portraying Nazis at all. They have a blanket ban on anything relating to the Nazis because they are so bent on keeping history from repeating itself. The laws are designed to target pro-nazi groups, not games like Wolfenstein, that is simply an unfortunate byproduct. Most Germans I have met have been more vociferously anti-nazi than any other nationality I have ever met, and I have met plenty on my travels around the globe. The resurgence in Nazi activity is almost exclusively from former east germany, and is a problem across the whole of the former Eastern-bloc and not specific to Germany. West Germany, from my memory, is almost completely free of outspoken Nazis, and chock-a-block with extremely PC anti-nazis.

Well, that's overstating the case a bit. If I remember my history correctly, eastern germany always was more socially conservative and nationalist than the west.

I wish I still had this one book from college that analyzed who, exactly, voted for the Nazis. They arose in the hills of the east, I think. They never had much support in the cities.

Here's a good report on the rise of neo-nazi support in Germany, from BBC news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1301000/1301347.stm

"There is increasing concern in Germany at the rise of support for extreme right-wing groups, especially among east German youth...."

I like the way Met K begins an argument that almost sounds reasonable and ends with spitting shit into a toilet.

I guess my main point, Met, is that I just cannot find it in myself to feel sympathy for the banishment of GTA3, or for its fans. As I said, I am no fan of censorship. Quite the contrary, I hate it. But then again I don't think of censorship and restraint as quite the same thing. I simply cannot feel bad about a game that has its protagonist sleeping with hookers then beating the cash out of them being banned Down Under. I know high school kids who play this game. Believe me, it's not doing them any good.

Then again, I cannot say that Virtua Tennis has done me any real good, so there goes that argument.

And believe this too: I am the absolute LAST person you will find on the Joe Lieberman bandwagon. I do not believe that violent entertainment begets violent reality. Games and movies don't get people to kill each other; that's generally the realm of religious texts. I am not saying I fear that GTA3 will create a raft of carjackers. I'm merely saying, well...some kinds of pollution we don't need.

I also admit a certain hypocrisy in this regard. I admit that I probably have in my canon of films I have watched that which should reasonably be offensive to a person who dislikes GTA3 for the reasons I dislike it, but I would scream bloody murder if anyone suggested banning one of those films. Again, I realize my hypocrisy in this regard, but that's the way it is. My reaction to GTA3 was immediate, visceral, and has been lasting. (And please recall, I also admit I've never even played the game, only seen it played. This flaw should have been fatal enough to discourage you from even bothering to argue the point with me.)

So, to explain...no, it is too much...to sum up: I will defend your right to play the vile game to the death. I believe you have the right to play it. But I don't have to like it. And I don't have to get all bunged up because Australia won't let their citizens kick the shit out of virtual police officers and old women (with respect to Supertanker's new game rating system, of course).

Oh, and thanks Bub for trying to make things a bit more clear.

Amanpour

Oh yeah...

In the interest of full disclosure I should also make clear another thing I found offensive about GTA3 (I mentioned this in another thread). I find it offensive that we get to see all this head bashing, all this violence, and yet the game developers have seen fit to deny letting us see what actually goes on in the car with the hooker. Our ratings system at work, folks.

"Shut your fucking face, Uncle Fucka..."

Amanpour

So, you're anti-censorship unless it's something you don't like? ;0

I think Amanpour's most revealing and, to my mind, most compelling point, is this one:

"I don't think of censorship and restraint as quite the same thing."

-Andrew

Also, it just occurred to me that we aren't talking about the US banning GTA3. Why should we, and by "we" I mean Amanpour (and especially Met K), care what Australia chooses to censor? They're a sovereign nation that's banned games before. Are we worried the US will be influenced and follow suit?
-Andrew

"Why should we, and by "we" I mean Amanpour (and especially Met K), care what Australia chooses to censor?"

1) This message board is located on the Internet, which is a worldwide phenomenon. Participation in this board is international. Someone from Australia has posted on this very thread.

2) The game was made in the U.S. What occurs to U.S. games is newsworthy to U.S. citizens.

3) Game makers, like filmmakers, may have to take the reception of their products overseas into account when making design decisions. If the game can't be sold in Australia, someone in the marketing dept. or higher up may decide that cool features must be removed because they will cost the company too much money in lost sales.

4) There's this lil' organization called the WTO, the entire goal of which is to turn the world into one giant economy wherein nations are meaningless. If business are allowed think like this, why can't we as consumers? People in Australia are people just like me. I care about what happens to my fellow man. If my fellow man can't buy one of the coolest games of the year, I sympathize.

5) Censorship sucks.

As far as why I like games like GTA goes, here's my take:

Life is repressive. We must put up with rules everywhere we go, various levels of inconveniences of our basest desires. Entertainment is a place wherein we may exercise freedom and feel the pure joy and childishness of acting out our most impractical and immoral fantasies.

In film, an example of this I would cite is THE MATRIX. In THE MATRIX, the scene wherein the two heroes walk into the office building and go through the metal detectors, leading up to a humongous firefight is cathartic and liberating. The everyday annoyance of the metal detector and being watched suspiciously by armed authority figures is given expression in the cathartic response of the heroes: they get to blow the shit out of all of the guards in the building without a single repercussion. And it is an incredibly fun scene to watch. In real life, it would be a sick and disgusting, sociopathic act with reprecussions galore all the way from criminal to the social consequences to the families of all of those people killed. But in the movie, it is fun, fun, fun.

Same goes for GRAND THEFT AUTO. You get to run every red light, kick the asses of anyone who annoys you, fuck whores, steal the most luxurious automobiles, disregard and even disembowel authority figures. It is cathartic fun.

To put things in perspective, I am against the death penalty. I think it is sick that the USA is one of the only industrialized nations to still have the death penalty. I am also pro-gun control. I don't like killing, I don't like crime. But I love being able to work out aggressions harmlessly by playing fun games like GTA which give you freedoms you would never have (nor really want, due to the consequences) in real life. That's why I like this game.

>"You've got this the wrong way around. The Germans aren't sensitive about portraying Nazis as bad guys, but about portraying Nazis at all"

That's what I meant. My previous statement assumes that you can't portray Nazis as anything but sick fucks.

Brad Grenz

"[GTA3] was made in the U.S. What occurs to U.S. games is newsworthy to U.S. citizens." - sinner

DMA are a Scottish developer.

Fuck you and your facts.

What's the difference between censorship and restraint? Do you mean prior restraint?

I worry about what English-speaking countries get up to because their legal systems actually put some indirect cultural pressure on the US; that whole Anglosphere thing.

By contrast, it doesn't really matter a damn, culturally, what content controls the Japanese have.

"Same goes for GRAND THEFT AUTO. You get to run every red light, kick the asses of anyone who annoys you, fuck whores, steal the most luxurious automobiles, disregard and even disembowel authority figures. It is cathartic fun."

Well, except that you run people over and nothing actually happens to them (think Carmageddon here). And cops routinely ignore almost everything you do, including running people over, smashing into other cars, etc.

Another reason I'm looking forward to the PC version -- hopefully it will have a reasonable mouse-keyboard control of the on-foot view, unlike the hideous, abortive PS2 on-foot control scheme.

I don't know whom you've been hitting but I've been leaving scarlet skid marks around town. It's true that it's tougher to kill someone by sideswiping them in GTA3 than in the movies. I don't have much RL experience or data to back that up though.

Cops will respond if the vehicle or patrolman is facing towards the incident. Not very realitic but having NPCs with a limited field of vision does enable the player to try rudimentary stealth tactics sometimes. Again, it's made clear throughout the game that it's just an arcade diversion and not a simulation - note the floating powerups for example. The fact it does so many things so well we'd like to see in more serious games might make some folks confuse the game's intent.

I'm pretty kick-ass on foot myself. Just takes practice, knowledge of weapons, and a willingness to move way from danger before getting gang-stomped. Planning ahead doesn't hurt either.

Well, I don't know why people would want to rush out and buy GTA3 when the inevitably superior PC version will be on the market within a few months. Shrug.

It's not like there's any shortage of OTHER games to play.

And remember the new rule, in effect from November 2001 forward: whenever a game is available for multiple platforms, the PS2 version will always be the worst one.

"Fuck you and your facts." Sinner

[rant]Fuck you and your all subsuming American culture. You steal all of our ideas and claim them as your own, from our language to our heroes (U-571) and now you are stealing one of the best game series of the decade.[/rant]

We invented the hovercraft as well.

"our heroes (U-571)"

I sure hope you're Polish, then, because Enigma was solved by a Polish mathematician named Marian Rejewski, with support from the French intelligence service.

Oh that doesn't matter Bruce... We subsumed the Polish too.

(Also, U-571 wasn't about Enigma, it was about recovering an Enigma machine. And the English are right to be offended by the film, if only for the presence of Jon BonJovi.)

The Poles had a machine before the war even started.

from the official website for the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, English language version.

The only thing the British have to be offended about in U-571 is that someone else tried to unfairly take credit for what they themselves were unfairly trying to take credit for.

"[rant]Fuck you and your all subsuming American culture. You steal all of our ideas and claim them as your own, from our language to our heroes (U-571) and now you are stealing one of the best game series of the decade.[/rant]"


Actually, I can see how it wasn't clear, but my "fuck you and your facts" comment was intended to be self-parodying. Obviously, I got my facts completely wrong, so I tried to make a joke out of not caring about the truth.

However, I do think that it is interesting that none of the radio stations in GTA feature DJs with Scottish accents, and all of the locales were American. I didnt' hear any Scottish voices in the game. Perhaps if DMA didn't set these games in American cities (save the swingin' London expansion pack), and actually had enough pride in their own homeland to set their game there, then I would immediately know that this game which has seemingly abandoned its ethnic roots is in fact Scottish.

As far as stealing of ideas goes, we Americans have at least had the sense not to steal haggis, kilts, or fried Mars Bars. Blech.

Hey, damnit, what's wrong with ending my arguements with shitting down the toilet?

It works on Usenet.

Of course,that's probably why my arguements don't work here.

Oh well.

"The only thing the British have to be offended about in U-571 is that someone else tried to unfairly take credit for what they themselves were unfairly trying to take credit for."

I'm not sure which U-571 film you have seen, or what version of events you have read about Engima, but this doesn't fit into my understanding of it. U-571 was a hollywood re-write of history that had Americans piloting the British Navy submarine that stole an Enigma decoding machine from the German U-boat in 1941. Likewise the only version of Engima history I know of has the Poles as pivotal figures in the production of a code cracking process.

There were no Poles involved in the U-571 operation. There were, however, plenty of Poles involved in the capture of a copy of a factory made German enigma cipher, and the initial groundwork in breaking the codes. Although British post-war versions of events downplayed the involvement of the Poles to the point of almost eliminating them completely, this is not so the case with modern versions. I have never been in any doubt as to the ample heroics of the Poles in acquiring the first copy, nor in the brilliance of the mathematician who broke the original code.

There was, however, plenty of work to be done as even with the Polish information the cracking of individual messages was a laborious and time-consuming process, prone to mistakes. The most important work performed at Bletchley was the automation of the process and the simplification of the mathematical solutions provided by the Poles. The end result was nothing short of remarkable, the first computer (arguably), and that is what is celebrated by the British.

The other part of the story was the capture of an actual decoder, which are the events portrayed in U-571. The decoder spurred on the research and was invaluable in securing victory over the Germans. What happened in the film is that the real heroes were replaced with Americans, and the only acknowledgement to the actual real navymen, some of whom are still alive, was a small mention in the credits. Those were separate events, and the subsumption of those men's heroism cannot simply be excused by saying "you stole someone else's idea so who cares."

Sinner, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think Grand Theft Auto would have been the same if it had been called Joy Riding and involved driving beat up Mini Metros around the grey Glagow housing estates selling tamazipan to teenagers with ginger hair and glazed expressions.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. My comments:

There were, however, plenty of Poles involved in the capture of a copy of a factory made German enigma cipher

There was no such capture. The Poles reconstructed a machine based on the commercial version and mathematical models. Which makes Rejewski's accomplishment all the more amazing. So apparently the new British acknowledgements haven't corrected all the previous misinformation.

Although British post-war versions of events downplayed the involvement of the Poles to the point of almost eliminating them completely, this is not so the case with modern versions.

Oh, really? The fact is that the "official" acknowledgement of these events came, as far as the Poles are concerned, only in September 2000 with the return of the first Enigma machine to Poland, after what is described as "half a century of silence." The tone of the article suggests that this is still quite a sore point.

http://www.rp.pl/gazeta/wydanie_000919/kraj/kraj_a_1.html

You also might be familiar with Michael Apted's film Enigma, currently in UK release. In it, the anti-hero is a Polish traitor working at Bletchley Park. Despite the fact that (a) no Poles worked at Bletchley Park, and (b) no Poles in Britain were ever accused of treason. To say nothing of the absurdity of making the country that actually first solved the codes the convenient foil for the heroic British, with whom they were allied at the time.

In fact, this article at a Polish film site

http://film.onet.pl/F,6712,152733,wiadomosci.html

reports that Norman Davies pointed out in a letter to the Daily Telegraph that the historical liberties taken by Apted's film are exactly the type that were protested so loudly by the British in films like ... U-571! Also in fact, U-571 is the main link above this article, and takes you to a page where the film commentator spends the first half of the review correcting what he believes is the impression left by U-571 that the British captured that machine and thereby cracked the codes themselves. The release of the film Enigma suggests hypocrisy in the complaints about U-571.

So I don't have much sympathy for the British yelling "Unfair!" about that film.

The link to the Rzeczpospolita article (first link) seems broken. It's in Polish, but just for completeness, here is a working link.

http://www.rp.pl/gazeta/wydanie_000919/index.html

Beware the wrath of those with Eastern European ancestry.

I've not seen Michael Apted's film Enigma, but it would seem that the British are in agreeance with you over the point that you make. Here, in a review of the film by the British Society for the History of Mathematics, they comment on this injustice:

"The plot is particularly unfair to the Polish heritage. In one line it is stated that the Polish 'cypher bureau' had supplied an Enigma machine at the outset of the war: this greatly understates the brilliance of the Polish pre-war mathematical work. After that it gets worse: the silent Pole amongst the codebreakers (already a severe distortion of the reality at Bletchley Park) is credited with having betrayed the significance of the weather report code book to Germany, and then with intending to give away the entire thing. In fact the Polish analysts never betrayed anything about the Enigma, despite the pressures of captivity, and it is they who could justly feel betrayed in 1945. Again there is an irony here; for Harris has done well to find a pivot for the plot, the discovery of the Katyn massacre (the mass murder of Polish officers by the Soviet Union after the 1939 partition of Poland), which encapsulates all that was sickening in the post-1941 alliance. Furthermore it could well be said that the film does a fine job of integrating this into the plot rather than leaving it as an acute moral symbol (compare the Stalingrad 'Sword of Honour' in Evelyn Waugh's trilogy of that name). Its neat (perhaps over-neat) plotted connection of the Atlantic war with Polish and American issues gives a vivid picture of the emergent globalism of the modern technological world, something to be contrasted favourably with the British drawing-room class-conflict genre. Nevertheless, in building a fiction of Polish betrayal this film has done an injury."

(http://www.cryptographic.co.uk/enigmareview.html)

It would be hard to argue the unfairness of the film based on this criticism. However, ignoring the heroics of a certain nation when depicting the heroics of another, is not quite the same as depicting the entire heroic efforts of another nation as your own. What Enigma does is no more than the many American (and British) war films that downplay, or downright ignore, the contribution of other nations, especially the Russians.

A co-option on the scale of U-571 could only be accomplished if the British had made a film that showed the heroic deeds of British servicemen storming Iwo Jima.
=====
"There was no such capture. The Poles reconstructed a machine based on the commercial version and mathematical models. Which makes Rejewski's accomplishment all the more amazing. So apparently the new British acknowledgements haven't corrected all the previous misinformation."

Just a final note on that, I said that the Poles had been "involved in the capture of a copy of a factory made German enigma cipher." Correct me if I am wrong, but the Poles got themselves a wooden copy made from a factory produced enigma cipher, and this is what they based their findings on. I don't see that I made a mistake here.

"Sinner, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think Grand Theft Auto would have been the same if it had been called Joy Riding and involved driving beat up Mini Metros around the grey Glagow housing estates selling tamazipan to teenagers with ginger hair and glazed expressions."

Nice bit of writing, that... Really, I think I would find that more interesting, as the gangster milleu of GTA has been explored in a million Hollywood films, while Glascow Joy Riding is a world that hasn't been reduced to a predictable set of cliches.

There was a crime film set in rural Ireland a year or so ago that was great for that reason; I can't remember the title of it, but it was about two guys trying to deliver some money to a minor crime boss, with horrible consequences beyond their control. Not a revolutionary plot, but due to the combination of Irish gangsters and a rural setting, the tale came off as a lot more fresh than yet another Italian-American tuff-guy film.

I take back what I said about kilts; fried Mars Bars, however -- my doctor would kill me.

Okay, I looked it up. The Irish gangster film was called "I Went Down."

Here's the IMDB page:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0126344

I can see what you're saying about cliches but it's hard to write satire about a culture that's not familiar to your main market - not to mention the world at large. Criminals, gunfights and car chases running amok in huge American cities are a big part of how America's seen in the world as it is. A tale of Irish (or Scottish for that matter) gangsters surrounded by rustic greenery and mountainous backdrops might be a more original story and offer room for some new ideas but wouldn't have the immediate impact or room for parody we have in GTA3.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to see games with more interesting settings and premises but I think video and computer games need to penetrate a bit more into the market before original real world settings will get much interest. Akella, the company that did Sea Dogs, has a Russian language only game that won several domestic awards. It's called "Provincial Gambler" and features criminal syndicates, action, and gambling with a uniquely Russian feel. Heck, even "Shenmue" as overrated as it was did really deliver on a small Japanese city and, whatever else wasn't so great about it, it did transport you there with fidelity. Then again, we can expect Japanese settings to be somewhat more familiar to gamers than Scotland or Russia for that matter simply because that's where so many games and films come from.

Huh. Maybe I would like a game about crazed Scots tossing poles and launching on criminal sprees. On the other hand, would anyone else buy it? :)

However, ignoring the heroics of a certain nation when depicting the heroics of another, is not quite the same as depicting the entire heroic efforts of another nation as your own.

It's a pretty fine distinction you're drawing there, but even so I think Enigma does a little more than "ignore heroics." Many people I've talked to feel it is outright malicious. The irony is that no Poles (including the mathematicians who escaped Poland in 1939) were allowed to work on Enigma at Bletchley Park because, incredibly, they were considered security risks. Given the history of the situation and the denial of any credit whatsoever for decades after the war, that a director could include that kind of portrayal in a film is outrageous, and I find it just as bad if not worse than the whole U-571 issue, especially since it was a single incident and the Americans don't have a history (as the British do) of trying to take sole credit for Enigma.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Poles got themselves a wooden copy made from a factory produced enigma cipher, and this is what they based their findings on.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but it is not the case that the Polish cryptologists based their work on a captured Enigma machine. Part of the genius of the mathematical work was that they were able to break the first Enigma codes with a replica they built based on intercepts and stolen keys.

>is not quite the same as depicting the entire heroic efforts of another nation as your own.

The complaints concerning U-571 are ridiculous -- the movie was never intended to co-opt history, or the heroics of anyone -- the intention was just to tell a fictional story in a historic setting, like Force 10 from Navarone. That was clearly stated by Mostov from the outset of the film's production, and he even added a disclaimer at the end of the movie to highlight historical anecdotes that were relevant to the film's events.

Unless you think it's never appropriate to make a fictional story, using entirely fictional characters, in a historical setting, which seems pretty wacky, there's nothing wrong with U-571 -- it didn't "distort fact", because it didn't purport to represent them.

Enigma, on the other hand (which I saw at the Toronto Film Festival, Bruce) is an offensive production -- aside from just being a terrible movie, in almost every respect (some of the code-breaking stuff was interesting), it holds itself out as telling the "true story" surrounding Enigma (using real life folks as its characters) -- and yet completely distorts (in a malicious, prejudicial manner) the actual facts of the events it purports to reproduce. It lies about history in defamatory manner -- U571, on the other hand, just tells an entertaining fictional yarn in a historical setting. I think there's a pretty clear difference.

Stefan

Neither U-571 nor Enigma deserve respect, but to claim Enigma is completely malicious and prejudicial distortion of the facts, containing historical lies, compared to the jolly jaunt of U-571 which is just pure entertainment is in itself a deliberate distortion of the facts. To assume malicious intent, you would have to have some evidence of this, such as Apted or Harris' involvement in an anti-Polish organisation. To claim a complete distortion of the facts you would have to show that the film did more than simply downplay the vital contribution of the Poles.

The bottom line here is that both U-571 and Enigma both, to some extent, portray history in a way that is offensive to another nation and steals the glory of another nations heroism. While Enigma distorts truth by claiming all the glory for the British, when they can only lay claim to perhaps most of it at best, U-571 claims all the glory for the Americans, when they had absolutely nothing to do with the events portrayed whatsoever. There is truth in that Britain has a history of misrepresenting the roles of the Polish in the code breaking process, but it is also true that Hollywood has a history of misrepresenting the British.

There have been a whole host of American films that have shown the British in an offensive light. Apart from having a British villain in almost every modern post-Perestroika film, we have to put up with the lies, exaggerations and insults contained in films like Michael Collins, Brave Heart, The Patriot, and the Devil's Own. I don't want to make a big deal of this, but to constantly have your culture chewed up by another country and then spat out to the rest of the world in the form of The Patriot et al, where you are maligned as cold, evil villains, is galling.

I've travelled around the world and found a dislike for British founded not only upon the veritable evils of the empire, but upon the anti-British propaganda that seems to emanate from Hollywood. The problem arises because while films like Enigma have small, often local, audiences, the likes of The Patriot and U-571 are big budget releases distributed internationally on a grand scale. Ask an Indonesian who cracked the Enigma code and you will get a blank look, ask them which nation performed the heroic actions in U-571, and the answer will be: USA.
====
BTW, Bruce, I don't see how it was ridiculous to not let the Poles work on what was considered to be about the most highly secret project of the entire war. It was so secret, in fact, that much of the research was destroyed after the war, and the rest kept secret for 50 years under the Official Secrets Act. Given its highly secret nature, it is no surprise that they didn't allow non-British nationals to work on the project, not in spite of the fact that they had knowledge of the subject, but precisely because they had that knowledge.

"Apart from having a British villain in almost every modern post-Perestroika film, we have to put up with the lies, exaggerations and insults contained in films like Michael Collins, Brave Heart, The Patriot, and the Devil's Own."

I can't believe you left out Austin Powers 2... Wait a minute, I've gotten confused here. Do you consider yourself a Brit, a Scot, or both?

Don't a lot of British actors get work playing those roles? Do they have any responsibility here?

Amanpour

'The Patriot'

What a travesty of filmmaking. I just get angry any time I see the promo for it.

On the other hand, I found this today at The Onion:
----------------
Polish Rapper Under Fire For Use Of The Word 'Polack'

DETROIT -- MC Krakow, a popular Detroit-based rapper of Polish descent, came under fire Tuesday for his use of the word 'Polack' on his new album World Warsaw III. "When MC Krakow casually uses the P-word, it dredges up decades of hurtful portrayals and cruel jokes for our people," said Sandy Serwacki, president of the Polish Anti-Defamation Society. "In just the song 'Ten-Inch Pierogie' alone, he uses the word 27 times." In an official statement, MC Krakow defended his use of the word: "When I say, 'Y'all be my Polacks,' or 'Yo, what up, Polack?,' it's my way of taking the word back. Our people need to re-claim and embrace 'Polack' with pride, just like Eminem did with the word 'faggot.'"
----------------
So I'm down with that.

How many polish rappers does it take to bust a rhyme?

Three. One to scratch, one to rap, and one to wave his arms like he just don't care, 'cuz nonna my homiez gonna waste their dead presidents on dat wack-ass Euro-rap.

Christ, I can't believe we're debating U-571. I, for one, fully agreed with Tom Chick's scathing review of the picture which got the Penny Arcade boys so riled up. Bad movie, period. But you can't talk about U-571 and Enigma as if this heist only happened once. The Brits and the Americans both independantly captured enigma code machines from U-boats. We don't need to turn this place into History of Hollywood, do we?

Brad Grenz

>To claim a complete distortion of the facts you would have to show that the film did more than simply downplay the vital contribution of the Poles.

No, that actually would be quite adequate. It's purporting to represent history, and yet it's inaccurate in significant ways. It completely distorts the facts (beyond just the Polish connection). You seem quite knowledgable on the subject -- see the movie -- I'm sure you'll agree that it completely distorts the facts.

>The bottom line here is that both U-571 and Enigma both, to some extent, portray history in a way that is offensive

No, no no. U-571 doesn't portray history at all, and was never intended to, and more than Force 10 from Navarone or the Dirty Dozen did. Again, I think there's a big distinction between: (a) fictional movie, with fictional characters, in a historical setting, vs. (b) movie, with or without fictional characters, that purports to recreate historical events, and therefore explain those events to viewers. The latter type of movie has responsibility to ensure that it fairly depicts those events (even if fictional characters are added to represent the contributions of a number of characters or just to tell a better drama).

Stefan

>I don't want to make a big deal of this, but to constantly have your culture chewed up by another country and then spat out to the rest of the world in the form of The Patriot et al, where you are maligned as cold, evil villains, is galling.

...by the way, no one criticized the Patriot more than I did, for that very reason. Locking up kids in a school and burning it to the ground? That's unbelievably offensive -- if the British had actually done that to the Americans, the Americans would still be bombing the British. That event, by the way, apparently actually occurred to a French village in WW2.

Mel Gibson certainly doesn't seem to like the British: Gallipoli, Braveheart, The Patriot. Next he's going to make a Boer War movie.

Stefan

> That event, by the way, apparently actually
> occurred to a French village in WW2.

Oradour-sur-Glane. The whole town was destroyed, in fact. It was left that way after the war as a memorial. It's a pretty spooky place, actually.

In truth I actually laughed all the way through The Patriot, because it is so bad it cannot be taken seriously. The moment I stopped looking at it as an accurate historical portrayal was when Mel Gibson chopped his way through an entire regiment of British soldiers armed only with an Indian war axe. The burning the villagers scene was comic genious, and I was particular impressed with the idea of getting the Canadian to light the fire, thus insulting two nations with the same stone.

Sinner, I'm not Scottish, but English, sorry for the confusion. I am of Celtic stock, with Irish ancestry and rusty (not ginger) hair. In America I would be considered an Irish-American, but in England I consider myself to be British. I also have some Welsh in the family, but the less said about that the better...

'I was particular impressed with the idea of getting the Canadian to light the fire'

Aaaahahahahaha.

I liked the happy ex-slave beach resort myself. Mel Gibson is a fucking genius.

-Andrew