http://www0.mercurycenter.com/opinion/perspective/docs/games04.htm

I have one question for Mr. Olafson:

Are you gonna cry?

Let's just hope Wagner James Au has the same sentiment.

I think someone needs to seek therapy. I'm not being sarcastic here either. People who are unable to move on with their lives after something monumental occurs have a kind of post-tramtic stress disorder that can be talked through. No need to give up ones livelihood because of something like this.

Either that or he has found a great new way to collect a disability check. "I was so haunted by what I saw on the news that I can no longer play games!"

I think he simply found an angle that paper was willing to buy.

-> I think he simply found an angle that paper was willing to buy. <-

Uh, he's a successful writer for the New York Times, I doubt he's that desperate ... oh wait I'm actually replying to the 8 millionth dumb Internet post written today

Worse, you're composing one of them. Doh!

I think this guy needs a copy of GTA3. Randomly beating up some people, then having sex with a prostitute in an alley.. that should do wonders for his recovery.

I wish he would have felt he had nothing to write back when he was reviewing games for Amiga (R.I.P.) World. Perhaps then I wouldn't have had to slog through monthly trashings of perfectly good games (q.v. Hero's Quest).

Oh, that's the Circuits guy. He's posted to USENET a couple of times.

I suppose if I ritually started off flight sims by crashing into buildings I might be a little upset, too.

Hey, you game-writer-suffering-from-mid-life-crisis-and-post-trauma-disorder:

Journalism is all about riding on other people's coattails. If you need to become a mover and a shaker to feel happy in your life, you have to get a new job.

He trashed Hero's Quest, AKA Quest for Glory? BLASPHEMY!

I have only a few choice words for this guy,
and I got them from the "Ricki Lake Show":

"Save the DRAMA for your MAMA."

Snap your fingers in the air above your head
while swinging your arm in a circular motion
when you say it -- it's much more effective that
way.

Maybe his dad was a security guard in a high rise...oh, wait, that was someone else.

Really though, I don't understand where he's coming from. Disasters happen all the time. Admittedly this one was man made, but it's still in the same vein. Hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, mudslides, plague, famine, etc. They are experienced every day. Every day thousands of people die from some kind of disaster, but we have to move on. We can't curl up in a ball and cry, it accomplishes nothing.

We have to fight this disaster in the same way we fight all disasters. Like a small town piling up sandbags during a flood, we need to unite and work together. Go on about your lives, support your neighbor, open your mail, take a flight to Vegas, but don't give up on life.

That's the thing. If that article indicates anything, it's that Peter had a very "regionalized" world view before 9/11.

The 9/11 disaster was horrible, one of the most despicable events in human history.

But while Peter was enjoying games, we were seeing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people slaughtered each year in tribal wars in Africa. Ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Terrorist acts in Russia resulting from the Chechnian war. Mass slaughters in Columbia.

This is nothing new. It's just that it's the first time it's happened close to home.

"But while Peter was enjoying games, we were seeing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people slaughtered each year in tribal wars in Africa"

Yep. If he finds games "meaningless" now, maybe it's just because he terribly lacked perspective in the first place. Like Mark indicated, games and other forms of entertainment are just as worthless, and valuable, as they've always been.

Maybe now Peter'll be a changed man, and do some community service, or at least do us the service of no longer reviewing games like Fallout five months before the game has actually been completed, or maybe he'll just "heal" by writing for the Mercury News. Thrill of discovery.

Stefan

"Maybe now Peter'll be a changed man, and do some community service, or at least do us the service of no longer reviewing games like Fallout five months before the game has actually been completed, or maybe he'll just "heal" by writing for the Mercury News. Thrill of discovery."

This is one brutal message board. You people are rough.

---

Quote:

This is one brutal message board. You people are rough.

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Lord. It's like walking through the schoolyard with my fly down.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments--notably this last one about perspective.

Oh, and just for the record, I never reviewed either Hero's Quest or Fallout.

po

"Lord. It's like walking through the schoolyard with my fly down ... Thanks for the thoughtful comments--notably this last one about perspective. "

Peter, don't take what these people say to heart. As a breed Quartertothree posters (largely made up of game reviewers for a few publications in decline and numerous unnecessary Web sites) tend to respond with violence with anyone who disagrees with them.

I'd point you to a specific example, but I'm sure if you spent five minutes here you'd see what happens to you when you say things that annoy Desslock, Tom Chick, Chet, wumpus, et al. Imagine how fun Desslock must be at parties -- he can sum you up, rip you a new one, and spit you out, all in the time it takes to have a cup of coffee.

"tend to respond with violence with anyone who disagrees with them."

A few spirited discussions on a messageboard hardly qualifies as "violence". Wouldn't you rather talk with people who can actually articulate and defend their opinions?

http://www.nypress.com/14/32/comics/art/lynda32.gif

Also, I hate it when the person you're criticizing actually shows up. Unless that person is Gord. Way to ruin the fun for everyone, Peter.

It really does put a damper on it when you know the person you're poking at is actually reading it. Doh.

Then again, this acticle is an amunition piece. With all of the survivor guilt and flag waving going on, it's enevitable that there was going to be some backlash against some of these articles. This one, being discussed on a gaming site by gaming journalists and written by a (former?) gaming journalist was just too ripe to pass up.

People (myself included) seem to be getting sick of being scared and cowering. I had to talk my mom down from throwing out all of her mail because there was a report that the distribution site in Kansas City (where some Omaha mail is routed through) maybe, could, perhaps, sorta mighta, kinda touched a piece of mail that may have touched another piece of mail that was in Washington D.C. when the Anthrax infected letter was processed. Jesus.

CNN and my local news are constantly preying on the fears of the public. Is your mail safe? Is Omaha prepared for a nuclear terrorist attack? Is your dog an undercover Al Queda agent? Enough already!

I guess I'm just sick of hearing how scared everyone is and how they just can't enjoy life the way they used to. If people are quiting their jobs, throwing away their mail, and refusing to travel anywhere then, well, I guess the terrorists responsible for this chaos have gotten exactly what they wanted.

Well Fred I beg to differ. What you do find here at Quarter To Three are a bunch of people who aren't afraid to speak their minds and who also engage in intelligent discussion. No one is forcing you to read these postings and the mere fact that you are here must mean something or are you simply here to pander to your own masochistic tendencies ?

Now if you have anything intelligent to bring to the discussion Fred then we are all ears !

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Quote:

Really though, I don't understand where he's coming from. Disasters happen all the time. Admittedly this one was man made, but it's still in the same vein. Hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, mudslides, plague, famine, etc. They are experienced every day. Every day thousands of people die from some kind of disaster, but we have to move on. We can't curl up in a ball and cry, it accomplishes nothing.

---

"Well Fred I beg to differ. What you do find here at Quarter To Three are a bunch of people who
aren't afraid to speak their minds and who also engage in intelligent discussion. "

Uhhh ... read this thread again Sean. The flames and ad hominem attacks do not reflect my notion of "intelligent discussion." It's an embarrassing thread actually.

I don't know, I always assume that the person I'm writing about *is* reading the thread. It makes me think before posting and prevents me from making outrageously stupid comments. Mildly stupid comments on the other hand... ;)

In response to Fred's comment, I find the candor of this site refreshing, especially in an industry where hype tends to skew perspectives.

- Alan

One man's flame is another man's discussion. Are you feeling rather sensitive because of the Sept 11 incident ?

This is a copy of an email I sent to The Mercury in response to Peter's article :

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Quote:

Regarding Peter Olafson's column - "Virtual world seems trivial to game player after Sept. 11" - Nov 4,2001.

Maybe Peter should get out in the real world more often. What about all the people who die from natural disasters, war, famine, the AIDS epidemic in Africa. What about people who die every day from car crashes in the US. Or shootings. Or a myriad of other things.

After the Sept 11 disaster the best thing everyone can do is go on with our lives better than before. A day hasn't gone by since the disaster where I do not think about that awful event. The best way to give the big finger to the terrorists is to keep going.

Maybe the cure to Peter's ails is to perform some community service, help a homeless person, or a charity.

---

>Oh, and just for the record, I never reviewed either Hero's Quest or Fallout.

Sorry, it was another RPG review that appeared in the same issue of PC Games as Barry Brenesal's review of Fallout (Lands of Lore 2?). Both reviews came out in a magazine published over a month before the games' code was finalized, and gold masters were produced. Since magazines have a 2-3 month lead time, the beta code you used for the review was likely at least 4-5 months old. In fact, the developers told me that it was.

Hey, nothing personal -- you gotta do what you feel is appropriate in the circumstances. But don't be surprised to be called on it.

Stefan

"The flames and ad hominem attacks do not reflect my notion of "intelligent discussion." It's an embarrassing thread actually."

Are you new to the internet? I don't know, I'm just asking. Because on my "embarrassing discussions I've seen on the internet"-o-meter, this thread doesn't even register.

"Uhhh ... read this thread again Sean. The flames and ad hominem attacks do not reflect my notion of "intelligent discussion." It's an embarrassing thread actually."

Not nearly as embarrassing as the original article.

"Because on my "embarrassing discussions I've seen on the internet"-o-meter, this thread doesn't even register."

Let's not use the rest of the internet as a barometer, okay? Let's aim higher -- for the children.

'Hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, mudslides, plague, famine, etc. They are experienced every day. Every day thousands of people die from some kind of disaster, but we have to move on. We can't curl up in a ball and cry, it accomplishes nothing.'

This isn't a good comparision. The other "disasters" you mention are usually entirely random events, and humanity has developed some pretty useful psychological defense mechanisms over the years (religion, what have you). Even war is practically considered a "random event" for lots of people.

By comparision, some nutjob killing thousands of people because he's upset about the Saudi government.....well, that's not really "random." People get a lot more upset when they're attacked by murderers (some random guy downtown, Osama, the serial killer next door) than nature itself, and for good reason.

What's "random" about Hutus killing Tutsis (or was it the other way around?) with Ak-47's and machetes?

Nothing. It's just not as close to home.

>>Thanks for the thoughtful comments--notably this last one about perspective...and just for the record, I never reviewed Fallout.
>Sorry, it was another RPG review that appeared in the same issue of PC Games as Barry Brenesal's review of Fallout (Lands of Lore 2?)

It was Lands of Lore 2 I was referring to -- and just in case you're still battling "perspective", here's your own admission to the reviewing practices I was criticizing (in connection with that review when you were called on it, back in the day)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1580013410d&hl=en&selm=19970912142201.KAA16524%40ladder01.news.aol.com

Here's a good excerpt, for the link-lazy:

[Reader] But you STILL haven't explained how you got "a good, finished build" in late July/early August, but the actual game WON'T be released until early October

[PO]: "I've never said the builds I received were finished. I said the one I reviewed was very solid and that I hadn't run into any bugs."

That's nice. So what if the game wouldn't be completed for another five months? My build of the first 10 minutes of the game was great! B+ (which is the rating you gave the game).

>Lord. It's like walking through the schoolyard with my fly down

or just "doing goofy things and being criticized for them".

Stefan

What's that sound I hear? Why, I believe it's the sound of an axe grinding!

>Imagine how fun Desslock must be at parties -- he can sum you up, rip you a new one, and spit you out, all in the time it takes to have a cup of coffee.

If someone was drinking a cup of coffee at a party of mine, I probably would do all of the above, inter alia.

Stefan

And I thought *I* held grudges a long time. Damn, Desslock... that message you linked to is dated September 12, 1997.

Four years.

Wow.

Beware the lawyer with the long memory - he will always get you in the end ! J

>Damn, Desslock... that message you linked to is dated September 12, 1997.

He's better now? My apologies for suggesting otherwise then. Who knew?

Stefan

"The other "disasters" you mention are usually entirely random events, and humanity has developed some pretty useful psychological defense mechanisms over the years (religion, what have you). Even war is practically considered a "random event" for lots of people."

As I mentioned, this is a man-made disaster, but it is exactly the same as anything I mentioned. No one knows just when an earthquake will strike, but they don't cower under doorframes all day just in case this happens to be the day. Unfortunatly, that is what is going on after this terrorist attack. It may not have been random to those who chose to do it, but it was unexpected and devistating.

50,000 people die when a city in Turkey is leveled by a 7.1 earthquake; 5,000 people die when a group of religious fanatics crash a couple of planes into the twin towers. The results are the same: a city is devastated, lives are lost, and people start asking "when and where will this happen again?". The psychological effects should be identical. Yet people seem to take the bombings so much worse. Is it because human minds were behind it? Was it because it wasn't truly random but a calculated act? The two should be viewed the same. Yes, bad things happened. Yes, they may happen again, soon, and to you. That doesn't mean life as you know it is over, but that is the stand so many people are taking.

I can't walk my dog because there may be a plane about to crash down the street. We're producing a bunch of shutins who are afraid of everyone who isn't a natural born American citizen.

Oh well, enough babbling.

While I disagree that they should be viewed as the same thing, I agree whole-heartedly that we have to keep living.

Don't anyone take this as a cold-hearted statement, please:

Remember -- none of us were killed in the attack, so let's not act like we were. Be thankful that you still have your life, and make the most of it.

To live in fear, is not to live.

If a writer writes an article about how he can no longer write, has he written?

If a game writer writes an article about how he can no longer write about games, has he written about games?

It seems to me that this was the polar opposite of Bill Hiles' post (on this very board, go look for it, I'm no link hound), "I am still a game writer."

Bill's post got hearty attaboys from all and sundry around here, and was even reposted a couple of weeks later. Maybe Paul should read it. Maybe it would break him out of his funk.

Besides, Paul's written that article for a general audience. Most people generally think that grown men who have libraries of computer games spilling into various rooms, and who spend all their time playing them are half nuts to begin with. Most people would think he just turned into a normal human being.

Around here, we think he's fruity.

Whoops! See that? I meant Peter and said Paul.

Duh.

'Yet people seem to take the bombings so much worse. Is it because human minds were behind it? Was it because it wasn't truly random but a calculated act?'

It may not be rational to be more pissed off/worried about intentional events on first glance, but that doesn't mean it's silly. Combine the well-known tendency of people to only care about what happens to their tribe with the natural urge to worry about events *you have some control over*, and ta-da.

Sure, it may not be much control, but it's greater than zero. Worrying about what your elected officials are doing to keep nutballs from killing you is a different thing from worrying about tornados.

'50,000 people die when a city in Turkey is leveled by a 7.1 earthquake; 5,000 people die when a group of religious fanatics crash a couple of planes into the twin towers. The results are the same: a city is devastated, lives are lost, and people start asking "when and where will this happen again?".'

I don't think I'm the only one who's never worried at all about the recurrence and location of natural disasters.

"If someone was drinking a cup of coffee at a party of mine, I probably would do all of the above, inter alia."

Wow, not only does he not know when to stop -- ever -- but he's pretentious too! Congratulations Desslock!

Maybe it comes from living in the middle of tornado alley, I dunno. In the heart of tornado season, when the storm clouds hang low and the lightning is flashing, I'm glued to the television just in case Sarpy county gets issued a tornado warning. After seeing in person what they can do to a city, I became a bit nervous about them.

I admit that maybe the comparison is a little flawed, but I think the resonse should be the same. Instead of saying "Where is this going to happen next?" people should be asking "What can I do to help?". Something like this, in my mind, should rile people up and make them want to help their neighbors. Instead it's making people cower in fear and halt their lives. Yes, only a small number of people are reacting this way and they are the people I'm talking about.

The press isn't helping matters one bit. How many reports have you seen on the news saying "What's next? Will you be the victim this time?"? I don't know about your city, but they happen here all of the time. The press is putting people on edge and they're loving it. Not snce the Gulf War has CNN had higher ratings. The local 10:00 news has more people watching it in Omaha than ever.

Peter's story just added to this, in my mind. The summary statement could have been: "I used to be happy. People died. Now I'm depressed and I can't enjoy life. I quit". People are influenced by these stories. They look at this kind of thing and think "man, I was tempted to give up too. When a man like Peter, who has been in this business for 12 year, gives up, why shouldn't I?".

Defeatist attitudes are infectous, and this is a story written by a terminal patient.

Hear, hear. I agree. The first thing I offered to do after the incident was hop on a plane and fly somewhere. Remember: they want us to be afraid.

I've just avoided the television press coverage. I get my news from newspapers and the web and I've found it much less alarmist. Some would rag on MSNBC, but I think their world news on the website is perfectly done. It's very informative and frequently updated.

Really...the TV is just off at home. My kids don't need to sit there and get concerned. Awareness of what's going on is one thing, being afraid an airplane will hit your 3rd floor bedroom is another thing entirely. My son actually expressed that concern after seeing the initial coverage. We shut it off right there.

The article is pretty silly. I've found a lot of comfort in games lately. I've got control of those little worlds. I make the decisions there. They aren't reminders of a world gone bad.

BTW, I hope everyone got out and voted yesterday. It was dead at my polling place at 5PM. That wasn't encouraging...

--Dave

"Wow, not only does he not know when to stop -- ever -- but he's pretentious too!"

What, the "inter alia?" Nah, that's not pretentious, it's just lawyer-speak. Try as I might, I can't always keep it out of casual conversation or writing either. I remember on the first day of law school the dean saying to me that I would be telling my girlfriend that I would be seeing her "subsequently."

As for the coffee, my wife and I always serve coffee at our parties, but that's because we're old farts. If we didn't have the coffee, everybody would be either going home to bed or falling asleep by 10 o'clock. ;)

The serving of the coffee is always the highlight of any party Chez Green. That's right before we play pinochle and eat our rice pudding.

Don't be dissin' coffee, man. Nectar of the gods.

And thanks to Sparky for that "Save the DRAMA for your MAMA" line earlier in this thread. That came in super handy when my kid was whining to stay up late and watch The Simpsons last nite.

Coffee -- real coffee, made with freshly roasted beans (not maxwell house, I'm afraid) and good water (and made RIGHT, in a vaccuum press and not a Mr. Coffee), and ground right before brewing -- is one of the world's greatest beverages.

Only people who know nothing about coffee -- apparently like the otherwise omniscient Lord Desslock -- complain about it.

"real coffee, made with freshly roasted beans (not maxwell house, I'm afraid)"

Pretentious!

>Only people who know nothing about coffee -- apparently like the otherwise omniscient Lord Desslock -- complain about it.

I love the coffee beans.
Morning, dinner, family weddings and, most particularly, during business meetings. Just not at "parties".

Stefan

Desslock:
"He's better now? My apologies for suggesting otherwise then. Who knew?"

Wasn't my point. My point was "Jesus, I don't even remember last weekend, and you can drag a four-year-old post up nearly at will and toss it someone's face."

So we're clear. :)

Maybe writing about games is totally irrelevant and trivial, but what about sitting around watching TV all day and jogging and running the vaccuum? That's MORE relevant? That's not trivial?

"Maybe writing about games is totally irrelevant and trivial, but what about sitting around watching TV all day and jogging and running the vaccuum? That's MORE relevant? That's not trivial?"

Doing nothing is noble, god dammit!

Jim -

That's where you and I differ. We have more tornadoes in a year here in Oklahoma than I could count on my fingers and toes. I've seen the damage they could do, too, but I've also noticed how rare it seems to be that one of those life-changing ones comes through.

Consequently, when it gets tornadoey, I'm usually going back and forth between the TV and the front porch ("like an idiot," I must add for the sake of my mother and wife) watching what's going on.

They don't really scare me anymore. I've become almost desensitized to them completely. That may not be good, but it's true...

Anyway, back to the discussion of the topic at hand...

"To write poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric."

I think the sentiment was more plausible with the example of Auschwitz.

To write poetry inspite of Auschwitz, to defy the darkness with an act of illumination, therein lies the victory of humanity over horror...

The posts above are very beautiful and most the one up from here. My brother has made it to finnish and is going to enjoy using it as his feelings at the next assembly. If you do not know about this the demo scene has been reacting to the troubles. The best of infortmation http://assembly.bittivuoto.net/

I do not know where this is to be put. Why can't I be a member? I am hoping for months that I will get a name but Mark Asher does no responding. If he is reading this, please give me a member. My name will be freeberd and you tell me the secreted password.

Greetz!

Johan, you did not send me thousands of dollars, which is why I have been no responding. Thousands of dollars will please me to please make you a member. It will be a fine member, quite serviceable and battery powered, and will make you popular with the ladies for those 18 hour nights in Finlandia.

Ok, ok, ok. I'll memberize you today at some point.

Ack, the dialog has strayed into OZ territory.

There's the good Qt3 posters, and the bad Qt3 posters, and then there is the amazing Johan Freeberg.

Wait, if this is Oz, then who's our "Beecher"?

No sooner had I read Johan and Mark's messages then the bats under my desk started attacking and I've been trying to beat them off with a ruler. WHAP! Ha! Got the little bugger!

What, you have bats under your desk too?

- Alan

Johan I like ! Picking on him stop you must !

My 8 inch member beat you I will !