I watched "Tora! Tora! Tora!" this weekend and my main question is, do the executives who gave Michael Bay all those millions feel like they've been had? They should. And he should be even more ashamed than I previously thought. All that money, all that modern filmmaking technology has to offer and he still could not even come close to improving upon what filmmakers did with the subject matter thirty years ago. Why did he bother? In my opinion, Tora! Tora! Tora! is a superior film to the film about December 7, 1941 that came out this summer, and superior in every way.

I was most surprised at the way the actual attack looked. I expected at the very least to find the special effects to be worse than the more recent film. The effects here actually turned out to be pretty impressive. Aside from a couple model-ship-in-a-bathtub moments the footage here is exciting and powerful. Best yet, I never got the feeling that it was gratuitous, a feeling I had to an almost overwhelming extent while I was watching this summer's film.

The other surprise for me was how evenhanded the film is w/r/t presenting the Japanese part of the conflict. Not that this film justifies or apologizes for the attack, just that it it shows better what led up to it happening, like a window had been opened to what was actually going on. I felt I got a much better overall picture of what lead to the attack on Pearl Harbor than I had previously had, when I went in thinking I was about to see something more akin to American patriotic propoganda.

It was kind of sad not to have a passionless, poorly lit love triangle in the middle of it all, but that is a minor gripe.

Amanpour

I watched Cool Hand Luke again.

A real pet film of professors and teachers who were in their early twenties in 1967, I guess, because my wife and I both originally saw it in college as part of the class curriculum.

I didn't notice this the first time, but the second time through it hit me like a ton of bricks: southern prison gangs with NO black people? I mean.. come on. That and the fact that George Kennedy's character talks in the most gratuitously black southern accent I've ever heard. He might as well have been wearing blackface.

Another interesting little factlet. The actress that played Luke's mother was only three years older than Newman. Heh. And what the hell was Dennis Hopper doing in there?

Cool Hand Luke also became a favorite of my law school class when it shown there because of one line in the film. The George Kennedy character and another prisoner are arguing about the rules of the egg eating contest. The other prisoner says, "I thought it was understood." To which Kennedy replies, "It's the law, and the law is never understood."

I just watched Seven Samurai for the first time. Thought it was pretty slow going at first (started it last night and fell asleep, but I had had a heavy day of Christmas shopping). Once it got going it was pretty cool, especially once the attacks on the village started.

This was the Criterion DVD and a really cool thing about it was that the commentary was divided into chapters which were titled. Why don't other DVD's pick up on this? I usually play the movie with commentary some night while I'm doing other things , like paying the bills. This is because 90% of every commentary track is self-indulgent crap, with two or three interesting stories or factoids thrown in. Labeling commentary "chapters" by topic really helped boil it down. I listened to the four that sounded interesting, found out that the "evil horde of horsemen coming over the hill" shot was first seen in Seven Samurai (that's kind of mind boggling, I could swear this shot was first used sometime during the silent era, but I'm no film scholar), and I went about my business. I suppose this doesn't get done with today's DVD's simply because most commentaries are aimless ramblings interspersed with listening to the director breath while he watches the movie, so it becomes really hard to label them with actual topics.

Anyway, this is definitely worth a rental if you haven't seen it. Long too, over three hours.

Two years ago, my wife and I bought "A Christmas Story" so we wouldn't have to put up with commercials on TBS. Best. Movie. Ever.

I want to stand up and cheer every time I see little Ralphie kick the crap out of Scut Farkus.

I watched Pearl Harbor on Saturday night. It's obviously a Hollywoodization of the subject matter, but surprisingly, it's probably one of the better Michael Bay directed films. There isn't nearly as much quick cutting as in his other films making it much easier to watch. It's not a horrible film, just a middling one.

I was kind of glad they put in the romance aspect. It at least gave you someone to care about. Without that plotline, it would really have degenerated into a special effects show.

Office Space and A Knight's Tale are lying on the TV at home waiting to be watched. I've never seen Office Space and Knight's Tale has Rufus Sewell who I'm a big fan of since seeing and loving Dark City.

--Dave

Ocean's Eleven. See it. It really feels like a classic Rat Pack film (in a good way). Great script, and some good performances too.

"It's not a horrible film, just a middling one.

I was kind of glad they put in the romance aspect. It at least gave you someone to care about. Without that plotline, it would really have degenerated into a special effects show."

Man, I strongly disagree with this. I thought the special effects were the only watchable part of the movie. The paint-by-numbers romance was even less believable than the egregious bi-racial romance in Midway.

There are bad movies that are forgettable, bad movies that are laughable, and, occasionally, there are bad movies that make me angry. Pearl Harbor falls into that third category. It's as if what actually happened wasn't heroic or exciting enough for Bey and Co. They had to make the Afleck character this ridiculous Forest Gump of WW2. Fought with the Eagle Squadron in the Battle of Britain. Sure, why not, even if the Eagle Squadrons didn't actually participate in that battle. Have him jump from flying fighters to bombers in the Doolittle raid, even though nothing remotely like that happened either. And then, to top it off, have them remove the machine guns from the B-25s. Why? The actual Doolittle raid wasn't heroic enough, even though it was downright suicidal? Frankly I think all that crap insults the real heroism of the men who actually participated in those battles.

I don't entirely disagree with you Jason. As a movie, I appreciated the romantic thread. As a historical drama, it obviously cheapens the history. But that's the problem, this was no historical drama.

I think the movie should never have been made. It seems more like an excuse to use the latest technical wizardry to recreate the battle in a "you are there" way. And well, it's a horrific day in our history, one that shouldn't be forgotten. To make a film that so desperately tries to wow you with the effects needed to recreate it, cheapens the lives lost. I don't think I need more than the archival film of the actual events and the survivor's stories to portray Pearl properly. I really think that's the film's biggest problem, not the human story that was added to give you someone to care about.

--Dave

Oh Dave Long, I'm mourning what little remained of your credibility.

Yeah, Heaven forbid people from having a different opinion.

It gives you unimpeachable credibility to post anonymously when you have something to say too.

--Dave

Dave, some advice, watch Office Space right now. Great movie for anyone who can sympathize with Dilbert or has worked in a cube farm.

Tora! Tora! Tora! should be shown in all high school American History classes, IMHO. It is just so compelling and, as pointed out above, it actually shows some of the Japanese motivation for the attacks.

Too many Pearl Harbor based movies paint the Japanese as attacking without warning and for no reason. It was a horrible attack, but it had motivation beyond the attack itself. Tora!^3 showed that.

As for what I've watched: this weekend I bought The Andromeda Strain on DVD. For some reason, I remember it being a lot more tense and entertaining. The DVD itself was highly disappointing with no extras at all.

>The other surprise for me was how evenhanded the film is w/r/t presenting the Japanese part of the conflict.

I like Tora Tora Tora a lot, for all the reasons you mentioned, although it does play like just a collection of interesting (fascinating) scenes as opposed to a more congruent narrative. Interestingly, Kurosawa was originally the director of the Japanese scenes, but he left the project after he and the American director couldn't agree on some of the scenes/history involved. So it may be that some Japanese folk would dispute whether or not the depiction is as even-handed as you suggest, although it certainly appeared to be.

Another thing really cool about Tora, Tora Tora is the use of all of the authentic fighters. Bay also used authentic fighters (supplemented by CGI), but there were just so many more WW2 planes available and operational at the time TTT was filmed.

One very small aspect of Pearl Harbour that bugged me more than it probably should have: the clipping of Yamamoto's famous quote - uh, to paraphrase "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping dragon"..."and fill it with terrible resolve". Pearl Harbour only used the first part of the quote, while TTT used it in its entirety (and ended the movie with it).

Stefan

"Another thing really cool about Tora, Tora Tora is the use of all of the authentic fighters. Bay also used authentic fighters (supplemented by CGI), but there were just so many more WW2 planes available and operational at the time TTT was filmed."

Tora, Tora, Tora did take American "Texan" trainers and modify them to look like Zero fighters (and did a very good job of it too) simply because even back when that movie was made there weren't many flyable Zeroes to be found.

'I think the movie should never have been made. It seems more like an excuse to use the latest technical wizardry to recreate the battle in a "you are there" way. And well, it's a horrific day in our history, one that shouldn't be forgotten. To make a film that so desperately tries to wow you with the effects needed to recreate it, cheapens the lives lost. I don't think I need more than the archival film of the actual events and the survivor's stories to portray Pearl properly. I really think that's the film's biggest problem, not the human story that was added to give you someone to care about.'

The movie was just as much a bit of death pornography as a snuff film. No context, nothing to care about, no analysis, just young lovers next to a towering pyre of corpses.

>>Great script, and some good performances too.

--Spoilers--


I'm amazed at how many people are calling Ocean's Eleven a good/great movie. It was entertaining (I'll give it that much) and everyone is charming, but it was utterly devoid of any suspense and completely predictable.

My biggest complaint isn't that they got away with it (everyone knows they're going to get away with it), but with the fact that zero effort was made to make me think there was a chance they might not be successful.

And when they did try to throw a wrench into the works--the briefcase on the cart, the acrobat getting hurt, the power being cut early--I never thought for a second that any of those problems was actually a problem.

Very disappointing.

What's really sickening is the way the PR dept. for Ocean's Eleven has exploited the patriotism angle (of a heist flick?!!?) by sending the stars over to Afghanistan. I think it's cool that they sent early copies of the DVD to the warships, but really the whole thing reeks of exploitation.

'I think it's cool that they sent early copies of the DVD to the warships, but really the whole thing reeks of exploitation.'

Warships always get hollywood movies early, actually.

They were hyping the fact in this case, though.

"Warships always get hollywood movies early, actually."

Not this early. Usually its approximately four months after it hits theaters. These days it tends to be much closer to the video release of the movie.

I gots ta pick up the Criterion edition of Hidden Fortress.

The promotion for Ocean's Eleven has been obscene. I don't even care if it's good, I'm waiting to rent it. E!, the cable network built on everything that is wrong with America, has been especially whorish...

Brad Grenz

Well, count me in with the crowd that likes Ocean's 11. William: In most heist movies the bad guys get away with the money. I mean, otherwise it's not really a heist movie, right?

spoiler
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What I liked about this one, what I thought made it stand out from the other heist flicks, is that in the end it becomes clear that he's really after the girl, and the cash is sort of incidental... (at least, as incidental as 160 million can be.)
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"What's really sickening is the way the PR dept. for Ocean's Eleven has exploited the patriotism angle (of a heist flick?!!?) by sending the stars over to Afghanistan."

Stinner, I think you're kind of supposed to send big stars to War zones around Christmas time. At least, that's what Bob Hope did.

I bet the GIs have no problem with it!

PS> Are you sure Afganistan? I have a hard time believing Afganistan. You mean like Camp Rhino? That's just way too volatile.

>William: In most heist movies the bad guys get away with the money. I mean, otherwise it's not really a heist movie, right?

Of course that's the case. Repeating what I wrote earlier, it's not the fact that they got away with it that disappointed me, it's the fact that no effort was made to disguise them getting away with it. There was zero suspense. I wanted a rollercoaster and what I got was the tea cups at Disneyland--sorta fun, but in a very safe and predictable way.


--Spoiler--


As for the whole "getting the girl" back angle, that came across as very tired to me. Been there, done that, damn tired of it.

I know this is a remake and an "homage" to the rat pack movies, but to me a much better ending would have involved Ocean screwing over Tess in addition to pulling off the robbery.

I think I prefer the SCTV adaptation of Ocean's Eleven? Anyone see that? It's fawking hilarious.

In their version the rat packers pull a heist on the safe in Danny Thomas's dressing room. The funniest scene is when Eugene Levy is hiding out in this stereotypical beatnik club waiting for the secret signal that the heist is going to go down. He gets the signal, then immediately breaks into this wild, brassy big band song "THERE'S GONNA BE A HEIST TONIGHT, A BIG HEIST TONIGHT! YOU CRAZY BEATNIKS! YEAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!" All the while, he's dancing around the club, jumping on tables and kicking people's espressos onto the floor, etc.

Excellent!

"It's not the fact that they got away with it that disappointed me, it's the fact that no effort was made to disguise them getting away with it."

Pshaw, Harms! There's not supposed to be any suspense in Ocean's Eleven as to whether they'll get away with it. The suspense comes from *how* they get away with it.

This isn't a gritty, double-crossing, morally ambiguous heist film. This is a feel good heist film. You just wanted to see someone get shot or heart-broken. Go read a Jim Thompson novel.

-Tom

Feh. If you *already* know the bad guys are going to get away with it going in, complaining that your spine wasn't tingled seems pointless.

Hey, when you watch A Bridge Too Far, do you wonder if those crazy Americans will be able to pull it off?

I liked Ocean's 11. The dialogue was good, and I thought the heist itself was so over-the-top that it was great.

I also thought the screenplay did a fairly good job of making it unclear as to what was actually going wrong and what was supposed to be happening. Or at least it did for me. Also: Brad Pitt keeps making it harder to hate him. And: Bernie Mac! I'll say it again: Bernie Mac!

The inclusion of Bernie Mac (and Carl Reiner) proves once again that Soderbergh is a casting genius - Nicky Katt in the Limey, Adam Trese *and* Joe Don Baker in Underneath, Albert Brooks in Out of Sight, Clooney, Clooney. And he has a real talent for making movies look better than they need to without constantly calling attention to it. The scene in which Matt Damon's character is introduced, the stroll through the lobby with the strange fake floral arrangement on the ceiling, Elliott Gould's back, Cheadle watching the Desert Inn get demolished - there were a number of really great-looking scenes.

Ocean's 11 was a much better movie than it needed to be, and thoroughly entertaining. And: Bernie Mac!

-Ron

So did Bernie Mac's eyes bug out at anytime? When I watch the promo's for his sitcom, that seems to be his surefire laugh getter.

>The suspense comes from *how* they get away with it.

Oh, I see.

Clearly I am a fool.

But even a fool like me could figure out what really happened down there in the vault, long before it was revealed. Hence, no suspense.

Anywhere.

No spoilers, except general tone:

William: Do you mean revealed as in *revealed*? The last bit of the heist was one of my favorite parts of the movie - it gave you the info to let you figure it out on your own and then showed you the specifics. I thought the pacing of that bit was pretty ingenious - neither too vague nor too obvious, and what you seem to take as a reveal I just took as them filling in the gaps.

But, again, I disagree with you on the suspense. I liked that it was never clear which problems were really problems and which seeming snafus were part of the plan.

Asher: No eye bugging on the part of Bernie Mac, alas. But he does have two really funny scenes.

-Ron

I guess we're looking for different things.

Chick is right--I did want a dirty heist movie. What I didn't want was some shiny happy Hollywood heist flick where my hand is held the entire time. Sadly, that's what I got.

I do agree, though, that casting Bernie Mac was a stroke of genius. The scene with him, Damon, and Garcia was hilarious.

Moving on, what's the buzz on Vanilla Sky?

"What I didn't want was some shiny happy Hollywood heist flick."

More power to Soderbergh for making a movie that opens at $40 million. I say good for him. He's paid his dues and he deserves the opportunity to put his face to the eyepiece (he's his own cinematographer) and make whatever shiny joyous bauble he wants. Especially when his enthusiasm comes through this clearly.

BTW, I saw Ocean's Eleven at a digital projection screen in Burbank. There were tiny vertical lines visible in some lighter colored areas, as if I were watching a TV screen, and I kept wondering if the movie had been shot on video. I guess that's an artifact of digital projection? Anyone know what's up with that?

-Tom

>I did want a dirty heist movie. What I didn't want was some shiny happy Hollywood heist flick where my hand is held the entire time

I was similarly disappointed. It's a pretty good film, but the writing seemed a bit, uh, lazy, for lack of a better word -- the plot (and dialogue) just lacked any real spark, especially when compared to Out of Sight or even the Underneath. I don't think I was looking for a "dark" film -- Ocean's 11 is supposed to be about mugging for the camera and looking great -- but I was still a bit disappointed with how lightweight it was.

Still, I'd rather watch even an only partially successful Soderbergh film than almost anything else released this year. For some reason, what I liked best was Andy Garcia's somewhat over-the-top performance, which made me wonder how that character would have worked in Godfather 3.

Stefan

Any of you cats see "Spy Game"? I need help resolving an issue that came up with the film w/r/t its casting. I liked the film okay; for a Tony Scott film it's not so bad. I guess I'd describe it as something of an entertaining mess. His direction is forever getting in the way of the story, but I was still interested. But the casting has really thrown me.

Redford is fine, and I like Pitt's work as usual, but I just don't think that his (Pitt's) age can by any stretch of the imagination work. Part of this can be resolved by some help from anybody who might have seen the film.

I wouldn't call what is to pass spoilers, but I am giving away some character info so if you are anal about that, abort.

The film opens with 1991 as the "present" of the action. Redford's character tells how he met Pitt in Vietnam, and I cannot figure out what year they flash back to. I read a review that says they met in 1965, which would make the casting of Pitt something of a boner*. But my wife claims that a title card during the flashback marked the year as 1975. This would work a bit better, but seems odd.

My question is twofold: does anyone know what year it's supposed to be? And were we still futzing around in Vietnam as late as '75? What's the youngest possible age for a new guy in Vietnam? Does his sniper specialty change this at all?

I just think it would have been a smarter move to cast someone closer to Redford's age in the apprentice role. I guess I understand why they did it from a marketing standpoint, but it sure takes you out of the film.

Amanpour

*This is the fifties usage of the word "boner" that I first encountered in a film in high school biology. It was used to describe genetic mutations, as in, "Sometimes nature pulls a boner."

No, but I saw Memento again. It was every bit as good the second time. Really an outstanding film. You almost have to see it twice before it all sinks in. It's so dense..

Is it just me, or was the actress playing Sammy's wife incredible in that role? All the performances were great, but hers really stood out to me.

The last ground troops left in March 1973. If he got there the same year at age 18, he'd be 30 today. In 2001 he'd be 46. Maybe he was a Marine guard at the embassy. Or maybe he was on a SECRET MISSION!

I watched Office Space tonight... I had tears in my eyes when they were destroying the printer!

--Dave mmmmkay?

Office Space...Heh...I love that movie.

"Oh, I wouldn't say I've been missing it, Bob!"

Haven't we all wanted to say that to our bosses at some point?

Ocean's 11 was cool, just saw it and especially liked how it was shot. The beginning with the different parts of the coutnry were cool... you actually get a feel for each city... LA, New Jersey, Vegas, Florida and Chicago.

Personally i liked this movie a helluva lot more than that The Heist and Heat. It's just a fun movie... there's an art to making movies "fun", doesnt mean its a lightweight. I even liked it more than Traffic and Erin Brockovich because it doesnt have any preconceptions other than being entertaining. Its a mature film.

BTW, what surprised me when i saw it was the amount of "older" post 50 crowd who went to see it... they actually seemed to like it more than the "Gen X" crowd.

etc

Office Space is an underrated movie. It's the only Gen X movie that actually didnt want to be cool in any way... and was funny and a little insightful. And the statement of the movie is somewhat similar to a movie like Fight Club.... dead end job ... not doing what you want... worried about middle class stature etc etc etc. And sorta like a heist film!

Can you just move a bit to the left... yeahhhh. The boss guy was hilarious! And the sad thing is I've seen many middle execs just like him!

etc

In Spy Game, it is 1991. I'm pretty sure.

As for the Vietnam scene, I remember the 70s. And I'm sure a specific date flashed on the screen (like you wife said), but I can't remember what it was.

"What's the youngest possible age for a new guy in Vietnam? Does his sniper specialty change this at all?"

18. uh, are you asking if the Army takes 17 year-old and under if the child can accurately shoot people to death from great distances? ;)

Oddly enough, when it came to age discrepencies in the show, I got stuck on Redford not looking even a day younger when they flashed back to Vietnam. He just looked his 70 years thoughout the whole film.

I never even considered the issues you raise with Pitt. But I did have a hard time seeing Pitt as a spy. Now that you mention it, maybe it was his age. Something just didn't ring true, though. That's for sure.

All in all, I thought Redford was able to salvage the show.

"Great...what am I going to do with forty subscriptions to 'Vibe'?"

Office Space was the first film I watched after September 11. For awhile after all I was doing was watching news, news, news. All the time. Then a friend came over and put Office Space in the dvd player and said, "We're watching this. Shut up."

God I laughed for days.

Amanpour

"Personally i liked this movie a helluva lot more than that The Heist and Heat."

Of the three, I think Heat was the worst. Which reminds me--for lack of suspense in a heist picture, go see Heat. I'll admit to being slow watching movies like this. I'm usually content to just see what happens, rather than plow ahead on my own. But something about this movie that I just found so obvious and hackneyed. I consistantly able to guess each twist!

But I rank Heist and Ocean's 11 about the same, although they're very diff shows. Heist is darker; more along the lines of what it sounds like William enjoys, I think. And with Devitto and Hackman it comes off beautifully. But I'm glad Ocean's was upbeat; Clooney, Pitt, and Mac seem like excellent choices for that kind of treatment, too. I just can't imagine Clooney not getting the girl and the picture being better for it.

Ocean's 11. Minor Spoilers follow.
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I'm somewhere in the middle too. Loved the first half of the movie, the planning, but I didn't like the heist itself as much. Too many holes in that plot.

Kudos as well to the casting. Reiner and Mac, as people have mentioned, but also Elliot Gould was fantastic! Did anyone else feel Julia Roberts was horribly miscast though? The movie needed a dame. She just didn't seem the type to fall between a thief and a billionaire. Especially given that playfully sexist line at the end of the movie.

"So, is all this stuff mine?"
-Quick cut to Roberts in the back of the car-

That line doesn't fit Roberts much does it? Then again neither does Las Vegas. Anyway, I felt she was very misplaced here.

(oh, I read Desslock's comment before I left for the film and man, it stuck with me... Andy Garcia was channeling Michael Corleone a bit here.)

One more thing... that was a kick ass soundtrack.
-Andrew

On Office Space, a nerdly note:

Isn't it weird that Gary Cole, the actor who expertly played the snide middle manager Bill Lumbergh (yeeeeeaaahhhh) was previously the action hero star of "Babylon 5: Crusade?" He also had a great part in Sam Raimi's "A Simple Plan" and currently does the voice of Harvey Birdman in Cartoon Network's "Adult Swim." Cool guy!

He was also Mike Brady in that Brady Bunch movie they did about 10 years ago.

Oh, my!! I hadn't placed him as Mike Brady yet...How odd...

Thanks, Bub.

Y'know, on seeing an ad for "The Royal Tenenbaums," it just struck me that it seems to be much more of a chock-full o' celebs fest than the supposedly star-studded "Ocean's Eleven."

Maybe "Tenenbaums" just contains more stars that I actually care about. More interesting up-and-comers (Stiller, the Wilsons, Paltrow) and better ol' faithfuls (Murray, Hackman, Glover, Huston, Baldwin).

On top of that Wes Anderson is much more interesting to me these days than Soderburgh, given their last two films: "Rushmore" vs. "Traffic." As a plus, the subject matter of "Tenenbaums" seems much less cliche than "Ocean's Eleven." Human stories vs. cardbord hooligans...

At least that's my bag, hep cats.

Bub: The line was: "Are you sure this stuff is mine?"

A very different line than you quote.

And what holes in the plot are you referring to? Pretty much everything was explained. I didn't find a single problem with the heist itself, except that it was ridiculous. Sure, there were some nice conveniences, but those are by no means holes.

Sinner: Comparing Wes Anderson and Soderbergh's "last two films" is ridiculous. Rushmore came out in 1998. Since (and including) 1998, Soderbergh made Out of Sight, The Limey, Erin Brockovich, Traffic, and Ocean's 11. Of these, I'd argue Traffic was the worst of the lot and even that was really good. That would make a pretty impressive track record for 10 years, let alone 3.

Soderbergh is an amazingly talented filmmaker who has consistently made interesting, good-looking, diverse, and entertaining films. Anderson is a quirky director who has made two really good films that are pretty similar in tone. Let's not forget that quirky is the slippery slope that led to Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes.

-Ron

"Out of Sight, The Limey, Erin Brockovich, Traffic,"

Saw three of those four. Only liked The Limey, and Julia Roberts is an instant turn-off for me. (Entertainment-wise, rather
than sexually, although I suppose that follows.)

The only other Soderbergh movie I like is "The Underneath."

So, I guess you could say for me, Wes Anderson and Soderbergh have produced an equal number of films worth watching, and Soderbergh has additionally disappointed me three times, i.e. I wish I hadn't gone to the theater. So, I suppose I'm inclined towards Wes.

Traffic seemed corny and false to me. It really seemed to enjoy playing with that "precious preppy white girl degraded by urban black ruffians" fear of suburban whites. And I totally couldn't buy the instant conversion of that woman into a drug boss, the magic cocaine toys that she somehow invented where pro drug dealers had failed before, and the corny, corny ending where the cop puts the wire in their house.

Bleah!

After watching Rushmore and Bottle Rocket again a couple weeks ago... I've begun to think the tone in Anderon's movies is a bit smug and self important, as if they were in a bubble - unreal. They are still great movies, but repeated watching of them is like reading a JD Salinger novel again and again. I cant exactly describe it, but there is something annoying about it after awhile.

Soderbergh on the other hand, will take a conventional type of movie, twist it a little, and make it his own. Erin Brockovich and Traffic were probably his most "liberal" minded preachy movies... but watching them again.. you can see this as a Soderbergh film.

The way i look at it is... Soderbergh is more a socially conscious director (theres a sense of an American identitity to his films) whereas Wes Anderson is a self conscious film romantic. Both are good... though Soderbergh is more easily accessible to audiences and imo, more "entertaining".

etc

BTW, did anybody see Spielberg's Minority Report trailer with Oceans 11? Looks pretty cool. imo Spielberg is better when he does sci-fi fantasy adventure type movies! Better than that George "Jar Jar" Lucas!

etc

Also, the Blackhawk Down trailer... bah i cant stand that Pearl Harbor bland faceless whatshisname pretty boy actor ... the movie doesnt look as good in preview as i thought it would... maybe itll be ok. The book was pretty cool!

oh and LoTR... ONE MORE WEEK!

etc

Tom's random notes:

Josh Harshnett (mtkafka's bland faceless whathisname pretty boy actor) was great as Iago in O. I also really liked him in The Faculty. I'm looking forward to Black Hawk Down regardless of the hack they put at the helm (i.e. Ridley "Gladiator: the Car Commercial" Scott).

Nice discussion of Soderbergh vs. Anderson. I share SInNEr3OO0's view of traffic (in fact, I think I know who he is now...). However, if you haven't seen many Soderbergh movies you like, you probably haven't seen enough of them. King of the Hill? Kafka? C'mon, *everyone* likes sex, lies, and videotape.

I still think Bottle Rocket is far and away the better of Anderson's movies, not at all smug, nary a hint of irony or whimsy, completely human and fallible, young, kind, honest, true, and all the other adjectives you would apply to the Boy Scouts before they started kicking out gays. I don't really know what that means.

I'm going to go start a new thread.

-Tom

Hartnett was cool in The Faculty. Thanks for noting he was in that, Tom. That's a fun movie. Kinda like most of the films Robert Rodriguez makes...

--Dave

FWIW: The high school chicks are nutso for Josh Hartnett. I realize this is probably obvious, but even trying to criticize Pearl Harbor could really get you hurt if you're not careful. These kids went to see that film multiple times because of him. I cannot imagine sitting through that thing more than once.

"One of my friends went to see Pearl Harbor twenty-one times because of Josh Hartnett."

They think he looks good dirty.

So there you have it. No word on Ben Affleck.

Amanpour

"Sure, there were some nice conveniences, but those are by no means holes."

-More Spoilers-

Yeah, everything had a nice little bow on it. So you're right, plot holes isn't apt. Call them, um, "reality conflicts." And what I'm talking about here is mainly the idea that you could pull up a fake SWAT van to a casino during a Title Heavy Weight Fight just after a massive city-wide power outage. There'd be absolutely no need for anyone to call 911 to get the police there. They'd already BE there because of the Fight. Brad Pitt chatting on a cell phone, in the casino, and nobody in security can spot him. Even when the boss' girl is standing right next to him.

But I only griped about those dismissively because they are minor. I knew suspension of disbelief was a requirement going into this one.

On the other hand, I really liked these "conveniences":
When the casino manager tells Terry that he believes Reiner is a weapons dealer *because* he hasn't heard of him.
And when Elliot Gould says he owes them for that thing, back then, in the place (or something like that).

I guess I'm the only one who felt Julia was miscast though.

-Andrew

>I guess I'm the only one who felt Julia was miscast though.

I totally agree with you, Bub. I thought she stuck out like a sore thumb.

--spoiler--

Here's another plot thing--how the hell did they get six bags of prostitute ads into the casino? And who was controlling the remote-controlled van; I thought everyone was in the SWAT truck?

Of course, I was dozing off, so maybe I missed something.

--spoilers, blah--


My bad--I just remembered that they had the car at the airport.

I'd still like to know about the ads, though.

Ocean's Eleven was winking at the audience right and left.

I loved how easy it was to snatch the only EMP device in the world that could shut down an entire city: pull up a van, wheel the EMP device into the back, and drive away. Whee!

I loved the silly SWAT stuff because it caught me by surprise.

My girlfriend thought it was unrealistic that they were able to recontruct the casino vault so quickly. All I needed was the brief sequence where they're doing some kind of busy work with power tools and I'm satisfied. For me, actors at power tools = whatever feat of construction the movie needs to happen.

Bub wrote:
"When the casino manager tells Terry that he believes Reiner is a weapons dealer *because* he hasn't heard of him."

I suppose most weapons dealers are profiled in Forbes? Do you know what weapons dealers are? FYI, these aren't the guys who sell hunting gear to Wal Mart.

"And when Elliot Gould says he owes them for that thing, back then, in the place (or something like that)."

In Hollywood, we call that a 'joke' or 'funny dialogue'.

William Harms wrote:
"Here's another plot thing--how the hell did they get six bags of prostitute ads into the casino?"

Firstly, they're not prostitutes, they're 'paid escorts'. Secondly, who said there were six bags? There were just enough to be blowed up and make a mess.

-Tom

"Bub wrote:"

Yeah, Bub...er... I, also put those two items under things that I really liked.

-Andrew

>Firstly, they're not prostitutes, they're 'paid escorts'

I hang my head in shame for my semantic error.

So you're telling me that the guards wouldn't be suspicious of bags (that supposedly held a crapload of money) that were a little on the light side? Plus, they showed the guards carrying six bags when they walked through the casino.

>Ocean's Eleven was winking at the audience right and left.

What you consider "winking", I consider lazy writing. Especially lazy: A security team guarding the greatest vault in the world, complete with fancy-techno-stuff, calls 911 to report a robbery. I guess they lack the basic technology that banks enjoy, which is a silent alarm connected directly the nearest police station.

"My girlfriend thought it was unrealistic that they were able to recontruct the casino vault so quickly. All I needed was the brief sequence where they're doing some kind of busy work with power tools and I'm satisfied. For me, actors at power tools = whatever feat of construction the movie needs to happen."

Big A-Team fan, I take it?

"Firstly, they're not prostitutes, they're 'paid escorts'"

This line also works on wives. Besides, it was only sex. With you, it's love. No charge for that tip, Tom. Us old married hacks have to help the uninitiated understand the rules.

Another note of laziness in Ocean's Eleven is that they get the "Nugent" joke wrong at the end...they should replace "your" with "his." I also thought that since they made getting away with the money seem like the hardest part, I'm shocked that they didn't somehow give the robbers an upper hand over Garcia so that he couldn't follow/kill them. We're suppossed to believe that he's so dangerous, and then he just follows someone he knows stole $160 from him. Hell, if he was the villain they made him out to be, Clooney should be dead for taking Julia - something that was poorly set-up to be as great a prize as the $160 million. He also would be able to very quickly piece together every co-conspirator with all the video cameras around and his early suspicions. Don Cheadle also does the worst British accent ever.

Overall, I thought it was a better, tighter Guy Ritchie film with the same lack of soul that I wished Soderbergh would've brought to the table. The women in the theater all seemed to love it, though.

"The women in the theater all seemed to love it, though."

It may not have been the movie. Regal Cinemas and a couple other theater chains have been rolling out this new kind of chair in many regional markets:

http://www.jetaime.to/double.jpg

The model pictured doesn't include the optional cupholder.

TWEEET!

Hey, that's two penis posts in two days, Fong. What the heck is it with you? One more penis in a 24 hour period and you're outta here, pal!

For God's sake, at least have the decency to post an ASCII vagina once in a while, man.

Sorry. I misread the title of the thread as "Long Dong December."