I'm tinkering, and I hope to move all the thread in free for all to this thread, but I don't really know what I'm doing.

For those of you not to preoccupied with your little comics and their cape-clad superheroes, deconstructed or otherwise... :)

I've been reading quite a bit lately, inspired largely by a shopping binge based on a reading list from Erik Wolpaw.

I'm in the middle of Charles Willeford's first Hoke Mosley novel, Miami Blues. Although I'm remembering a lot of the movie as I read it, I'm really enjoying it's sly humor. Unfortunately, I'm worried that the villain is the more interesting character, while the series marches off with the blander good guy. I guess there was a time when divorced cops who are "getting too old for this shit" weren't stereotypes.

Miami Blues is a particularly nice alternative after reading some weird thing Erik recommended called My Idea of Fun, a strange but well-written meditation on magic and marketing and a bunch of other stuff that was largely lost on me. The author was some guy named Will Self (surely not his real name) who convinced me that the British are almost as fucked up as the Hungarians. I never knew.

Also on my list is my first James Ellroy novel. People keep mentioning American Tabloid, so I picked that up and it's in the queue. Amanpour gave me Ambrose's Citizen Soldier, the supposed inspiration for Saving Private Ryan, which I'm also looking forward to reading when I'm in a historical mood. I dipped into Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, but got turned off after I realized I was basically sitting in a room with people's grandfathers while they droned on about their lives (no disrespect intended...).

I recently finished a beautiful and repulsive novel by Cormac McCarthy (who did the Matt Damon novel, All the Pretty Horses) called Child of God. Stunning prose. It's basically what you'd get if you crossed Faulker with Hemingway and wrote The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

-Tom

I've most recently finished Shadow Moon by George Lucas and some other guy. It's definitely not a literary masterpiece, but it's pretty good... especially if you liked Willow--Shadow Moon is basically a sequel to it. The last book before that was Hannibal, and before that I read Memnoch The Devil by Anne Rice. I don't know why, but I like her books.

I also just finished a book about JFK and his private life (scandals and such). I forget what it was called... Dark Side of Camelot, I think...
Not too bad.

>I recently finished a beautiful and repulsive novel by Cormac McCarthy (who did the Matt Damon novel, All the Pretty Horses) called Child of God.

Ah, now we're talking--McCarthy is a fricken genius. However, Child of God is a walk in the park compared to Blood Meridian, which is the most lyrical depiction of mass destruction I have ever read. And it also features a character called the Judge, who is the very definition of evil. His book Outer Dark is also excellent and features the single-most-horrible act I have ever read in fiction.

Tom, did you read Ambrose's D-Day? It's based on first-hand accounts of D-Day (both Allied and German perspectives) and is a very powerful and haunting read.

I'm currently reading two novels (not recommended), and looking forward to one.

I'm re-reading "The Fellowship of the Ring" (for the same reason as many here are) and I'm on Book Three of Lemony Snicket's subversive "An Unfortunate Series of Events" (I think Erik Wolpaw & William Harms both, would really like Book 1 of this series).

I'm REALLY looking forward to "Rise to Rebellion" by Jeff Shaara... it's sitting on it's shelf now, and I will someday finish "Front Row at the White House" by the remarkable Helen Thomas (I, ahem, started it two years ago).

-Andrew

"Ah, now we're talking--McCarthy is a fricken genius."

No kidding. After Child of God, I suspected he was one of those guys I should feel deprived for not having discovered. I'm definitely putting Blood Meridian on my list now. Thanks for the tip, Billy.

"Tom, did you read Ambrose's D-Day? It's based on first-hand accounts of D-Day (both Allied and German perspectives) and is a very powerful and haunting read."

Ambrose is all new to me. I don't have cable, so I won't be able to see this Band of Brothers thing based on his book. I'll be reading Citizen Soldier instead. But I love historical eye-level accounts.

Some of my favorites have been inspired by computer gaming, actually. After playing Civil War wargames, I came upon Soldiering: The Civil War Diaries of Rice Bull is a great detailed account of what it was like to go off and fight in the Civil War. It's one thing to read great sweeping accounts of clashing armies and political maneuvering. But Soldiering is about what they ate, how tired they were, and how long they were away from home. It was also a stark account of what it was like to get wounded back then. If you got anything other than a scratch, you were essentially fucked.

Another favorite of mine is Iron Coffins, a German U-boat commander's account which was recommended to me after many hours with Aces of the Deep. There's a lot of riveting sub stuff in Iron Coffins, but what stuck with me most was his experience during shore leave when he went home through the ruins of late war Germany.

-Tom

Blood Meridian- Its like the American Anti-Bible, but it may also be the greatest book I've ever read. William, did you know that the Judge and the Glanton gang were semi-based on historical figures. Its funny you guys bring it up because I've been looking around for a used copy to read it again. Its incredible.

Currently working on Alistair Macleod's No Great Mischief, which is a fictional look back at a Scottish family living in Cape Breton. Beautifully written, but more closely related to a series of short stories than a real novel (Macleod is more known for his short fiction).

Next up is sort of funny in relation to this thread: Kavalier and Klay by the guy who wrote Wonderboys (name escapes me just now). Its fiction about immigrants in NY who write comic books in the 30s or 40s.

Aha! Michael Chabon is the name.

Recently, I've been on a William Sanders kick.

_The Ballad of Billy Badass and the Rose of Turkestan_ (SF), _J._ (SF), _Smoke_ (Mystery), and _The Bernadette Operation_ (Thriller).

All highly recommended.

--Dave

>William, did you know that the Judge and the Glanton gang were semi-based on historical figures.

Yeah, I remember reading that. I've always wanted to dig up some info on the folks that were the real-life inspiration for the characters in the book but can never seem to find the time. For those who are into reading literary criticism, I recommend Perspectives on Cormac McCarthy and Cormac McCarthy's Western Novels.

Annie Proulx is another favorite of mine. Her book The Shipping News (which won the Pulitzer and National Book Award) is fantastic and extremely moving. Her last book was called Close Range and is a collection of shorter work; it's also outstanding.

I'll definitely check out that Civil War book you mentioned, Tom, and follow up on Bub's recommendation, too.

--Billy

Bub's recommendation -
"A Series of Unfortunate Events" by Lemony Snickett (which is a rather brilliant pen name, don't you think)

Are Children's Books in the vein of Roald Dahl, but only moreso. More Dahl than Dahl is what I mean. More like we tend to remember a Dahl book than it really is. Something like that. Dark, evil, tragic, fun, stuff, and some extremely interesting writing.

Actually, here, yes, I've got it now. This series is much like an Gorey cartoon come to fiction. Gothic stuff. Jeff Green, you might enjoy it and your daughter *might* as well. Read it first.

Also, I only really recommend the first book in the series. (It'll go to, heh, 13 books.) The gimmick is kinda lost by book 2.
-Andrew

Well, in addition to the little comic book about deconstructed super-heroes, :) I'm currently reading The First World War by John Keegan. Unlike WW2, I had never learned much detail about WW1. I always thought it was a great, big, bloody stalemate that finally ended when the Germans realized that they didn't have the bodies to counter all the Americans that were arriving on the Western Front. Now in 400 well-written pages, I'm learning that it was basically a great, big, bloody stalemate that ended when the Germans realized that they didn't have the bodies to counter all the Americans that were arriving on the Western Front.

Good thread.

"I'm on Book Three of Lemony Snicket's subversive "An Unfortunate Series of Events"

A good friend of mine recommended these books to me. I was going on about how pleasantly surprised I was that I actually liked the Harry Potter books (I expected to be underwhelmed) and he suggested I look at these Lemony Snicket books. So, on the list they've gone. Haven't gotten to them yet, but they'll go on wish lists once the holidays start to make their final approach. Based on what I've heard about them I'd have to say that you should consider them as well, Mr. Chick.

Just finished reading Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden (whose signature is definitely NOT in the book), loaned to me by Tom. Excellent reporting of a fascinating story, if not as well written. Bowden really captures the spiralling chaos of combat, although the weird thing for me was that I found the final part of the book, where he describes the process of putting together the story and details his sources, to be the most interesting part of the whole book.

Continuing with my nonfiction kick I'd really like to get my hands on Newjack, by Ted Conover. Conover is a writer who applied for a job as a prison officer and ended up working at Sing Sing. The book is his first-hand account of the experience. And, for masochistic reasons I'd like to read Fast Food Nation.

-Amanpour

I got in a hard-boiled mood from Max Payne and read Chandler's The Big Sleep and Stick by Elmore Leonard.

"It was raining again the next morning, a slanting gray rain like a swung curtain of crystal beads. I got up feeling sluggish and tired and stood looking out of the windows, with a dark, harsh taste of Sternwoods still in my mouth. I was as empty of life as a scarecrow's pockets. I went out to the kitchette and drank two cups of black coffee. You can have a hangover from other things than alcohol. I had one from women. Women made me sick."

Gotta love good hard-boiled prose! That's from Chandler.

That is good Mark.
I like Chandler and I've always enjoyed Spillane as well. But I find I can't read two "hard-boiled" novels in a row. They often become self-parodying, but in a "better than Max Payne" way.

I think you'd like Sin City btw Mark. But now I'm dorking on comics again.

"Sometimes standing up for your friends means killing a whole lot of people..."
-Andrew

Ugh. Sin City is, literally, a pale Chandler imitation. I suppose it's nifty, as far as comic books go (what do I know), but they don't compare. Raymond Chandler is all about getting a lot of mileage from dense rich prose. Frank Miller's comic book is a matter of drawing pictures where words worked far better.

For a far better Chandler imitation, read William Gibson.

"Sometimes standing up for your friends means killing a whole lot of people..."

Yikes. Is that Max Payne or Sin City? It certainly isn't Chandler.

-Tom

Speaking of Chandler and Leonard, for my money it doesn't get any better than Jim Thompson. The Killer Inside Me, The Criminal, The Grifters, and King Blood are all fantastic books. The man was one of the greats and I think it's a shame that he's often overlooked. It's also unfortunate that he never enjoyed much success while he was alive.

As for non-fiction, In the Heart of the Sea is a good read. It's about the whaleship Essex which was rammed (intentionally) by a sperm whale twice and then sank. The men then spent the next three months floating around the South Pacific. The story of the Essex inspired Melville to write Moby Dick and In the Heart of the Sea won the National Book Award last year.

--Billy

That line is from Sin City, er... the third one(?). Frank's writing isn't nearly as strong as Chandler at his worst (he's angling more for Spillane anyway, according to interviews) but his line drawing and inking are superb. I mean his most effective story, imo, is Silent Night and it contains only a single sentence.

But none of that changes my assertion, or my opinion, that Mark Asher would like Sin City, which is all I was saying in the above post. ;>

I mean, of course Miller isn't Chandler. He wrote Robocop 2....

-Andrew

I don't want to sully this fine thread with any comic book talk, so I posted my response to Tom's Sin City comment in the comic book thread.

Okay let me third or fourth the recommendation for Blood Meridian. That book is unbelievably intense. Still the only Cormac McCarthy I've read--but it is unforgettable.

I also agree about The Shipping News, which is one of the most *moving* novels I've ever read--and since it's about a writer, pretty much everyone here will be able to relate to at least parts of it....

Jim Thompson: YES. I think he's the spiritual ancestor of James Ellroy---brilliant, funny, scary, and dark as hell. Along with the books mentioned here already, I HIGHLY recommend Pop. 1280, which may be the funniest book about a psychopath I've ever read.

And Bub, yeah, I'm rereading Fellowship of the Ring now too, like everyone else. And I keep hearing about this Lemony Snickett thing--gotta check that out!

Books are good.

Now reading Fast Movers by John Sherwood, about air war Vietnam. OK read but has some problems. It's very biased to the Air Force side which is wierd because Sherwood is a Navy historian. Not one mention of Duke Cunningham, the Navy ace.

Recently finished Combat Aircraft Designer by Ed Heinemann. Wonderful story about an interesting guy that did a lot of work on WWII warbirds and some jets.

I recently picked up my first Ellroy book, and will get to it when I can. Also appreciate the recommendation on McCarthy. And I still want to read the Jesus Son book some of you mentioned a few months back. And someday, I will finally read Portrait of an Artist as a Young Dog by Dylan Thomas!

There *was* a books channel -- it's actually still there under "Topics" but for some reason it's inaccessible. I think it became further subdivided into sci-fi and non-sci-fi and the sci-fi topic was the only one that got any posts.

---

Quote:

...My Idea of Fun, a strange but well-written meditation on magic and marketing and a bunch of other stuff that was largely lost on me.

---

"Ah, now we're talking--McCarthy is a fricken genius."

Let me fourth the recommendation for Blood Meridian. I think that's the only book I've ever had to put down because I was getting so stressed out reading it. The last 30 pages or so are terrifying. I have Suttree on my list. Hoping to get to it by the end of the year.

My favorite McCarthy book is The Crossing. It's the second book in his Border Trilogy (of which the first is All the Pretty Horses), but it's not a sequel in the strictest sense. They are more like companion books, telling similar stories with dissimilar protagonists. All the Pretty Horses is quite good as well. The third in the trilogy was a bit of a letdown.

I have an interesting interview with McCarthy somewhere. I believe it's the only published interview he's ever done. If anyone is interested in reading it, email me a [email protected] and I'll fwd it to you. If I can find it.

"I HIGHLY recommend Pop. 1280"

I love that book as well. What's strange is that it's basically the same book as Killer Inside Me, but a bit more cagey about the truth re: the protagonist. All great: Pop. 1280, The Grifters, and A Swell Looking Dame (Babe? - I always get it mixed up with A Hell of A Babe/Dame).

I finally read The Sun Also Rises, which I'd been meaning to get around to for about 10 years. Is the title a joke? It seems like a really silly title for a book about a guy with a problem like Nick's.

-Ron

"I finally read The Sun Also Rises, which I'd been meaning to get around to for about 10 years. Is the title a joke? It seems like a really silly title for a book about a guy with a problem like Nick's."

This may be completely wrong because it's been years since I read any Hemingway criticism, but I think the title was changed several times and this was something like the third choice.

If you like Elroy and Chandler, make sure you give Jame Lee Burke's Robicheaux (sp) series a try. New Orleans Noir.

"I HIGHLY recommend Pop. 1280, which may be the funniest book about a psychopath I've ever read."

If you like Pop. 1280, you should definitely pickup Sideswipe, the fourth (I think) of Charles Willeford's Hoke Mosley novels. It gets my nod as the funniest book ever written about a psychopath.

"...My Idea of Fun, a strange but well-written meditation on magic and marketing and a bunch of other stuff that was largely lost on me."

I first read when I was working for a direct marketing company and involved in daily meetings with marketing types, which may have contributed to my liking it so much. He's got a book of short stories called "The Quantity Theory of Insanity" that's really good. Better than My Idea of Fun, now that I think about it.

Maybe we should start a Quarter to Three book club. It worked for Oprah (actually her impact on book sales has been nothing short of amazing), and the conversation here would be much more interesting I think.

-Andrew

"just discovered Tobias Wolff."

This guy is great. I saw him at a bookstore in the area and he read a little, and then answered some questions.

He told a great story about the movie made from his memoir, This Boy's Life. He said he saw its opening with his mother, and when they left the theater, he suddenly felt very awkward because there were scenes where the actress playing his mother was sexually abused by the actor playing his stepfather. After a little hedging, he manages to ask her how she felt about seeing that on the screen, and she just waves her hand and says, �But, honey... It was Robert De Niro�

"And Bub, yeah, I'm rereading Fellowship of the Ring now too, like everyone else."

Jeff, how far are you? And is this your first go through as an adult? I read it at 11, 14 and 16, but this is my first time taking it slow (I'm 30 now). I've only gotten to the Barrow-Downs and I was surprised how effective and scary that scene was. Also, I found the Bombadill stuff charming this time through. I think I blurped through it before. (Makes me look forward to Entmoot which was another scene beyond my teen years).

God the poetry is awful though.

Anyway, I'm glad Jackson opted to leave out Bombadill. It may work in prose but I doubt it'd look anything but silly on a silver screen.

"Sing Hey! For the bath is a noble thing..."

-Andrew

One of the scariest and most horrible things you can ever hope to see is Robert Coffey singing and frolicking to the Tom Bombadil song.

"Sing hey ho! Tom Bombadil-lo!"

I'm actually almost done w/Fellowship. Just about 50 pages to go. It is the first time I've ever read it as an adult (almost 40 now--UGH), and I think the last time I read it was maybe in 6th grade. It is holding up *extremely* well. I actually remember having to plod through the stuff w/Elrond as a kid, but this time I loved it. Really, really psyched about the movie. The previews have kept my hopes alive that Jackson is taking it seriously and being extremely faithful...

Sounds like I gotta check out this Hoke Mosely series. And I think I'm restarting Blood Meridian tonite---this conversation today has me wanting to torture myself with that book again...

Myself, I just can't find any good fiction anymore, as it's too much work to dig up good stuff. The last was Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, which was a incredible letdown from The Diamond Age. He's actually included the goddamn "masturbation-is-the-key-to-becoming-Uberman" thing. High Fidelity before that, which I'm not sure why I liked so much.

What I've been reading lately:

Ted Conover's Newjack is pretty much The Guide To Prison, and it's difficult to read without concluding that prison is a pointless institution.

I'm apparently something of a neoconservative now after reading Mickey Kaus's The End Of Equality and agreeing with virtually all of it, which is amusing, as Bush-style conservatives loathe the book. The theory is that economic structural changes are making any sort of money liberal-style progressive taxation/income maintainence pointless, so instead the left should work on carving out a "public sphere of equality," adding socialized medicine and mandatory national service. Can't recommend it highly enough. Oh yes, and that welfare cash benefits should be completely eliminated in favor of government workfare, stiff-arming government employee unions as a side benefit.

David Landes's The Wealth and Poverty of Nations is an excellent bit of triangular trade/industrial revolution analysis attached to a buttload of badly researched protectionist asides.

Nonzero, by Robert Wright, is good for getting up to speed on what the current fringes in evolutionary theory are doing, and for proving beyond a doubt that Gould's a fool.

And....uh....that's about it.

>And I think I'm restarting Blood Meridian tonite

You should read Outer Dark sometime. It's hard to say which of McCarthy's books is my favorite, since they're all fantastic, but Outer Dark is definitely up there at the top.

It's good to hear that Fellowship has aged well. I read it when I was younger (like everyone else) and have been wanting to reread it but was afraid that it wouldn't hold up and thus ruin my memories of it. And I'd rather never read it again than have that happen.

""I finally read The Sun Also Rises, which I'd been meaning to get around to for about 10 years. Is the title a joke? It seems like a really silly title for a book about a guy with a problem like Nick's."

"This may be completely wrong because it's been years since I read any Hemingway criticism, but I think the title was changed several times and this was something like the third choice."

I don't know anything about how the title came to be chosen. One thing is clear, however, the title comes from the quotation from Ecclesiastes that Hemingway included before Chapter One, directly under the Gertrude Stein "You are all a lost generation" quote: "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to the place where he arose . . ." The two quotations fit the theme of the book (and the theme of so many Hemingway stories) very well. The world goes on in its own way no matter what you do. You can't control it. The best you can do is to try to make some order and sense out of your own life. In that sense, I'd say the title fits Jake's situation very well.

No--reading Fellowship as an adult won't ruin your memories. (well, it hasn't for me anyway). It's only deepened them, and given me even more respect for the series. It's just a great story, and a great read. And parts of it are just as scary as I remember them being way back in the 4th grade...

Books, books, books...

Speaking of Ellroy (I've read them all), I wouldn't start off with American Tabloid. The Black Dahlia would be a better choice, it starts off his LA Quartet and isn't as "stylized" as White Jazz or American Tabloid. Met Ellroy at a talk in Austin. Whew, intense...

The Jack Reacher novels by Lee Child are good, start off with The Killing Floor. Jack Reacher is such a kick-ass character.

One of the best southern Florida thriller/crime novelists is James W. Hall. He's as good as Willeford, James Lee Burke or Hiaasen.

You any of you guys can find a copy of Greg Matthews' Power in the Blood, you're in for a wonderful treat. Strangest damn western I've every read. Psychic powers, transvestite assassins, serial killers... reads like a cross between Stephen King and Larry McMurtry.

I also urge folks to read anything that Joe R. Landsdale writes (his comics too). Met the guy a couple of years ago. His Hap Collins/ Leonard Pine novels (beginning with Savage Season) are a real pleasure to read. By turns hilarious and gruesome, Landsdale's work is simply amazing.

Right now I'm re-reading Camus' The Stranger and Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest. Red Harvest, by the way, is the inspiration for the films Yojimbo, A Fist Full of Dollars, Miller's Crossing and Last Man Standing. In my opinion Hammett, together with Cain and Chandler, are original founders of true hardboiled fiction.


For fantasy fans, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire (beginning with A Game of Thrones) is hands-down the best fantasy series going. The guy writes like a dream--makes Jordan and Goodkind look like complete hacks...


Guess that's it for now...oh, yeah... Dave Barry's first novel? Big Trouble. Not bad. Not bad at all.

Oh shit, how could I forget the current king of bad-ass prose. Stephen Hunter. His current is Hot Springs. I'd go back and start with Point of Impact and go straight into Dirty White Boys.

Tom said: "Ambrose is all new to me. I don't have cable, so I won't be able to see this Band of Brothers thing based on his book. I'll be reading Citizen Soldier instead. But I love historical eye-level accounts. "

About Band of Brothers on HBO, you will probably be able to get it on DVD in the future, as you can the Sopranos and other HBO stories.

I have also recently discovered Ambrose. You like trains, right? Look up Ambrose's Nothing Like it in the World, about the transcontinental railroad.

Nick or Jake? Whichever one it was, there isn't anything "rising" on the poor guy anymore. Terrific book though.

The prison book sounds interesting, thanks for the heads up guys. The noir stuff doesn't do it for me, the only one I ever liked was the Maltese Falcon.

Before I began this accounting jag, I used to work at Bookland of Maine. It was a great 8 years. And one of my absolute favorite books to recommend was Buffalo Soldiers by Robert O'Conner. It is about a 1980s US army base in West Germany about a Corporal who deals Heroin. It is the only book I've read that was told in second person and absolutely works. Its gritty, funny, and terrifying. The whole race war thing on the base is pretty eye opening, and so are the Autobahn roadside hookers. For anyone who liked Blood Meridian, this book is waiting for you.

Unfortunately, I think the book is out of print. I can't find an ISBN for it on Amazon, which is discouraging (but buying used is the best way to go anyway). But, while I was searching around I did find that the book is currently being filmed with Joaquin Phoenix:

http://raph.net/joaquin/buffsoldnews.html

Its a pretty good link with interesting pictures.

But, I beg of you, read the book before seeing the movie. Please!

Okay, I'm not a big book fan, and you guys get WAY too deep for me, but to anyone who enjoys Tolkein-esque fantasy, I would recommend Terry Brooks' Shannara series. There are about seven of them, and I have literally never been so wrapped up in a book as I was with each of them. If you're looking for fantasy, and have never read these, then do so.

The rest of the stuff you guys are discussing sounds -- forgive me -- boring. Maybe I'm still too much a kid at heart (and I AM just now a hair past twenty), but it just doesn't interest me. Maybe in another five or ten years, I'll participate more in this discussion with you.

Ambrose--his newest The Wild Blue: The Men and Boys Who Flew B-24s Over germany is a terrific read.

I recently finished his Undaunted Courage (about the Lews and Clark expedition) and throughly enjoyed it.

For Civil War fans... a must read is Landscape Turned Red by Stephen Sears. THE definitive book on the Battle of Antietam (bloodiest single day in American history). It was the primary source for my multimedia script on the battle.

And of course there's the book that hooked millions on the Civil War: Steve Shaara's The Killer Angels. It might be the single best novel about a civil war battle.

Oh, the best book about modern close-quarters combat? Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. It's the only book in recent memory that got my hands sweating. The movie version by Ridely Scott is due out later this year (I think).

Yeah, I'm a real biblio-freak... ask my wife. She can't understand how one guy can own 6000+ books.

"Nick or Jake?"

Jake. My mistake.

-Ron

'Yeah, I'm a real biblio-freak... ask my wife. She can't understand how one guy can own 6000+ books.'

Well, I can't. Are there *that* many good books out there? Your figure that's 150 books a year for 40 years, or one every other day....do you actually read them?

I try to read mine. Don't have nearly as many as Bill, but around 1,000 would be a good estimate I think. A bit of it is reference and don't plan on specifically reading them unless I need to. Others I get because I enjoy or because I think it's an interesting topic, or has to do with some research. Occasionally I'll book binge at Half-Price Books, especially when a sale is on. As a historian, you can't afford to throw away anything :)

--- Alan

Wow. I don't even have that many...well, anything, really.

How could one have 6,000 books? That's buying one a day for 16 1/2 years! That boggles my mind! (At 21, I would have had to buy one book every day for 3/4 of the days of my life!)

Wow. And finding the time to read that many...Never happen.

A thousand seems far more...sane. Though they still wouldn't get read in my house, I fear.

"Just finished reading Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden"
I've got that sitting here next to me. I picked it up a few weeks ago for no obvious reason. Maybe I'll actually dig into it.

I've just started Ghost Soldiers by Hampton Sides. It's about the Army Rangers during WWII that were sent behind enemy lines in the Phillipines to rescue 500+ POWs. Pretty good so far. It amazes me the things people can do (or survive) when they really have to.

As for another recommendation, Fast Food Nation is a must-read. It'll make you never want to eat at Burger King again, though. :-)

--Billy

Shara's Killer Angels - I remember finishing this book while sitting in a terminal in Dallas Airport. I finished the last page, completely lost to everything going on around me, closed the book, and then just stared at the wall for a few minutes, letting it all sink in. A truly stunning book.

Yeah, 6000 or so (most still in boxes though). I've been collecting books since I was about 12. I have a decent collection of mid to late 60s fantasy paperbacks (a lot of Ballantine adult fantasy classics by William Morris, James Branch Cabell, Lord Dunsany, William Hope Hodgson and E.R. Eddison), unauthorized Lord of the Rings from Ace, 1st printing Conan Lancer paperbacks, Lovecraft & Clark Ashton Smith Arkham books, vintage hardboiled stuff with wonderfully sleezy covers (1940-1960), first printing Shadow novels from Bantam (1968), history, eastern philosophy, astronomy, classics (American & World), occult, mysteries, etc. Hell, I've even kept some of my college textbooks (mostly history).

I'm very ecletic : ) Being a "collector," of course, I haven't read all of them (and I do collect in areas that interest me--not just because they're "rare") but I've kept a list of books that I have read since I was 12 and I'm pushing past 2000 right now.

My excuse, to the wife, is that I'm a writer and as such books are required sustenance like water and air...

My collecting has slowed to a crawl since the baby and the fact that there's no room but I still hit the book sales or ebay once in a while for those hard to get titles from favorite authors.

Of course then there's the matter of computer games... last rough count (after giving a bunch away as gifts to relatives) I have 400+, some going back to C-64 days....

Don't even get me started on videos (and DVDs now).

Bill "Packrat" Hiles

I read Killing Pablo! Other than that I'm too lazy too read these days (and playing too much arcanum). Killing PAblo I didn't even read it was a book on CD (Bday present from friend)! pretty good. Reminded me of Marquez as non fiction. Book is pretty popular, everytime i pass barnes and noble i see a big orange sign KILLING PABLO by MARK BOWDEN.

etc

Mixing topics here, but: I read Blackhawk Down, and liked it. Now what I want is someone to make the Operation Flashpoint mod for it. Boy, if you could model the hordes of angry citizens that could be a great scenario.

Re: Band of Brothers...

We're getting Digital Cable this week and part of the deal is three months of HBO (all flavors) and Cinemax. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing Band of Brothers and probably wouldn't have if they hadn't made such a great deal on the digicable installation (free install w/cable box and half price on these premium channels).

Since Comcast took over my cable company, it's been all roses. Cable internet will finally hit my house in October.

Now back to your regularly scheduled book conversations...

--Dave

Band of Brothers: I saw the long HBO trailer two weeks ago. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I may get HBO just for this.

Crossing threads just a bit here, finishing Watchmen (and thanks again to Jeff Green and Thierry for the fine recommendation) somehow put me in a post-apocalyptic mood,;) so I pulled out one of my all-time favorite books. Reading this one for the first time takes a commitment, but it's well worth it, and I've come back to re-read it every year or two in the 20 years that I've owned it: Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban.

I'll second (ir third) the recommendation for the Harry Potter books--they are cleanly written and just plain fun.

I just finished re-reading Alfred Bester's The Stars my Destination (or Tiger! Tiger!, if you want to show your age). Before that was Neil Gaiman's American Gods (really good) and Ray Bradbury's The Halloween Tree (re-release of a novella that's been out of print for a while). Currently I'm working on Tad Williams's Sea of Silver Light.

Stuff on my "to read" pile: a book by Howard Hendrix called Empty Cities of the Full Moon (picked it up on a whim), The Ashling by Isobelle Carmody (third book in a great series, starts with Obernewton), and King and Straub's sequel to the Talisman (which I have on order with Amazon).

For anyone wanting to read Ellroy I also recommend starting with Black Dahlia. Ellroy's an incredible writer but his prose gradually deconstructs throughout the LA Quartet series. By the time you get to White Jazz (the final book) its basically just stream of concious imagery. American Tabloid, the first of a new trilogy, has the same style and it might be a bit much if you're new to Ellroy.

I have to second the recommendation for Stephen Hunter. He's one of my favorite writers and writes some of the best action scenes I've ever read. He's also a pretty good film critic too (for the Washington Post). Point of Impact is probably the best place to start with him.

"For fantasy fans, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire (beginning with A Game of Thrones) is hands-down the best fantasy series going. The guy writes like a dream--makes Jordan and Goodkind look like complete hacks... "

I wholeheartedly agree. I was up to book 7 in the Jordan series, when I read all the Martin books that are out so far. (Wish I could discuss plot and progression of events without given things away..there are lots of surprises!) I don't think I'll ever continue on with The Wheel of Time. Tried to pick up the latest book, and just couldn't stand it.

I'd also like to add a SF recommendation...
the "Hyperion" trilogy by Dan Simmons. There's another book or two after the initial trilogy, but not as good in my opinion.

I did in fact get digital cable and HBO this week in order to see Band of Brothers. Saw a bunch of tiny previews for it on TBS this week during an airing of Midway and I'm hooked. Have been for awhile, but this just looks way too cool. $100 million for a mini-series?

Blackhawk Down should definitely be required reading. A related book is On Death Ground, which includes a chapter on the 10th Mountain Division guys during the event (the book itself is about small unit actions between Panama and modern day, and covers each of the six "branches" of the modern infantry: light, mechanized, airborne, ranger, etc). An awesome book. David P. Bolger I believe is the author, don't remember exactly as I lent out the book.

--- Alan

Glad you liked Watchmen, Jason!

Agreed on the Harry Potter books--they rule. Forget the fact that they're overhyped, in your face--and that it's gonna get 10 times worse once the movie comes out. The fact is, they are extremely well written and plotted. R.K. Rowling should practically get a sainthood for getting so many kids to start reading, too.

Also agreed on where to start with James Ellroy. American Tabloid *is* brilliant, but it's possibly tough going if you haven't gotten used to his style. Also, there's one major character in American Tabloid that carries over from White Jazz--and the impact is greater if you know who he is. So start with Black Dahlia, read the entire LA Quartet, and *then* read American Tabloid.

"Shara's Killer Angels - I remember finishing this book while sitting in a terminal in Dallas Airport. I finished the last page, completely lost to everything going on around me, closed the book, and then just stared at the wall for a few minutes, letting it all sink in. A truly stunning book."

Killer Angels is excellent, almost too good to be "true" and the boilerplate for any historical fiction to follow imo.

Have you read his son's work? Jeff Shaara, he's at least as good as his late father (his father having the advantage of Gettysburg being the better tale) and improving with each work.

Here are the titles and what they cover:

Gods & Generals - From John Brown to Gettysburg
The Last Full Measure - Post Gettysburg to surrender
Gone For Soldiers - Mexican American War
Rise to Rebellion - Pre-Declaration of Independence

Great stuff. Rise to Rebellion is brand new.

-Andrew
PS: Thanks Sones for reminding me of American Gods. I need to get that one.

You guys are great! I'd buy you all a beer if you were here. Some great tips all around and my reading list has swelled considerably. Some desultory responses:

I'm going full speed ahead with Blood Meridian, Black Dahlia instead of American Tabloid, Jim Thompson's Pop.1280, The Shipping News, Fast Food Nation, Heart of the Sea, Sideswipe, and Killer Angels.

Jason McCullough's reading list scares me and I want him to move to another thread. :)

I have no confidence that Ridley Scott can pull Black Hawk Down together. I expect it to be all quick cuts, confusion, and cheesy speeches. Ugh. I'll just re-watch Three Kings for my cinematic taste of What Post-Cold War Combat Is All About.

Why don't I like fantasy books? You guys bring up Fellowship of the Ring and Terry Brooks and Geroge RR Martin and I'm all like, cha, right, like, no way... Am I just trying too hard to be an anti-geek to compensate for the hours of gaming I do? Should I see someone about this? I *tried* to read a Harry Potter book once. Does that count for something?

-Tom

Speaking of Killer Angels....
After watching the Gettysburg DVD I re-read Andersonville, and listened to an audio book of "The Stars in their Courses", which is the Gettysburg portion of Shelby Foote's Civil War Narrative. Foote has an amazing voice, bourbon smooth with the perfect light Georgia accent. I actually prefer hearing him read it, to actually reading it.

I also bought the audiobook of Steve Martin's Pure Drivel... which is really quite amazing.

(I got addicted to audio books when I had a courier job about five years ago. I don't prefer them, but somethings just sound better a loud - see the Steve Martin)

-Andrew
PS: Don't mention Terry Brooks and Tolkien in the same sentence again Chick... I'm warning you.

"Thanks Sones for reminding me of American Gods. I need to get that one."

You've read some of his other stuff, too, right? I mean aside from the Sandman stuff. Neverwhere is excellent, and Stardust is also really good (but avoid the mass market paperback version; whoever decided that it would be a good idea to release a version of that book sans illustrations should be fired).

Neverwhere was pretty good, sort of a twisted (non-American McGee) Alice but I guess I missed Stardust. I highly recommend his short story collection Angels and Visitations, and I really, really, loved Good Omens (with Terry Pratchett).

1 Angel
1 Devil
& the End of the World is coming
Both work together to stop the Apocalypse... to save their jobs.

-Andrew

Off topic: rumor has it that Terry Gilliam is working on the film version of Good Omens. I don't know if that's true, but I hope so...

Tom,

You might try reading some of Harry Turtledove's fantasy works. He's doing something rather interesting with Into the Darkness and Darkness Descending--reimagining WWII in a fantasy setting. His alternative history novels like Guns of the South (South African time travelers give The Army of Northern Virginia access to modern weapons and the South wins the war) or his reimagining of WWI with America divided into Union and Confederacy in his Great War series are pretty damn interesting if you're into history.

Harry Harrison also has a good alternative series going with his Stars and Stripes Forever (The British attack the US from Canada during the Civil War).

On a different tack--for some wonderful Magical Realism (along the lines of Gaiman's work) I would recommend anything by John Crowley or Charles de Lint.

"Am I just trying too hard to be an anti-geek to compensate for the hours of gaming I do?"

I don't know. But I don't like fantasy books either. For the most part, that is. I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings (I read it last year for the first time). I like Gene Wolfe a great deal, but some would consider him sci-fi, and either way he's more in line with Borges (though an argument could be made that Borges has a good deal in common with fantasy writers). I liked the Harry Potter books (especially the last two), but other than that my attempts at reading fantasy have not led me to believe that I'm missing much.

Speaking of Borges, I just picked up a collection of all of his short stories. The translations are strange, but it's nice to have the stories that aren't widely available in more common collections like Ficciones.

"Maybe we should start a Quarter to Three book club. "

Shameless plug: For anyone interested in reading William Gaddis' JR, a mailing list I moderate is about to undergo a large group reading. It's a pretty big commitment (the reading will go from early Septemeber to mid-April, 20-30 pages a week), but it should be interesting to read such a mammoth and, for me at least, difficult book with some notable experts on Gaddis' work.

-Ron

Erm, I didn't put any contact info in that last message. If you're interested in the reading, email me at [email protected]. Or just sign up at Yahoo.

-Ron

>You might try reading some of Harry Turtledove's fantasy works.

Are those books really that good? I've looked at them at the bookstore, but it seems like he comes out with a new book every other month, which has always made me question their quality.

>But I don't like fantasy books either.

I know a lot of people on this board are into fantasy and have recommend George Martin's books, but I find them completely unreadable, along with most other fantasy on the shelves. All the "thee's" and "thou's" and kings and crap. I can't relate to that. I know that Martin, in particular, has a reputation for killing off main characters, but I can't endure the writing long enough to make it that far.

So here's my question--can anyone recommend fantasy that isn't, well, fantasy? Something not set in some world that I can't pronounce. Is there such a thing as a post-modern fantasy book?

--Billy

Harry Turtledove is awful!

Time travellers giving AK-47's to General Lee... Hitler, Churchill and Roosevelt teaming up against an alien invasion, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria...etc., etc., Bah!

The worst of it is, while he may be a fair historian, he's nowhere near a good enough writer to bestow his "Twilight Zone-esque historical figures" with any sort of true to history character.

(I know Bill didn't explicitly say this but let me seperate Shaara from Turtledove. Shaara and his son take historical documents, journal entries, letters, etc., and fictionalize historical events as close to reality as possible.)

-Andrew

"So here's my question--can anyone recommend fantasy that isn't, well, fantasy? Something not set in some world that I can't pronounce. Is there such a thing as a post-modern fantasy book?"

I'm in the same boat as a several of you - like Lord of the Rings, hate everything else. A few years ago, someone suggested "The Black Company" series of books by Glen Cook. They take place in a relatively standard fantasy world, but are told from the squad-level perspective of a group of mercenaries who just happen to have a few wizards to complement the swords and axes. It's pretty gritty - they're just as often aligned with the 'evil' side as the 'good' - and reads more like a war novel than a traditional fantasy book. I've only read the first four, even though I think there might be nine or something by now. Evidently, Bungie borrowed a lot of ideas from The Black Company for the Myth series.

I forgot to mention in the last post that I like the Black Company books that I've read.

Post-modern eh? Well, I think Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman might qualify. It's about modern London, or rather London Below. Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett is pretty much fantasy but set in late 80s England.
I put George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan at pretty much the same level, except that I like Robert Jordan more. Robert Jordan, at least, writes the grandiose stuff well but I'm groaning in any social interaction, especially between women. I'm not about to quit after nine books though. I did give up on George Martin though.
The sad part is that I had no problem with the way women were portrayed in WoT until the latest book. It was probably the 2-year break since the last book which I spent re-reading the entire Deverry series at least twice and of course watched Xena: Warrior Princess.

The Deverry Series, now there's fantasy that doesn't throw around Ultimate Evils, Destruction of the World and the like. Those get old real fast.
Just substitute this line for 20 lines Deverry hype. It's written by Katharine Kerr, better mention that.

> I expect it to be all quick cuts, confusion, and cheesy speeches. Ugh.

That is actually how I think some of the battles was -- quick, confusing, and people saying loads of crap to each other inbetween. The breakdown of command and apathy between the Rangers and the Delta Force guys in the thick of it is scary.

--- Alan

Erik,
Did you ever try The Chronicles of Thomas Covenent by Stephen R. Donaldson?

His sci-fi Gap series is worthwhile too.

-Andrew

Yeah, there is. Fantasy (post-modern or not) is actually a lot like sci-fi, or any other genre of literature. 80% of everything that comes out ranges from terrible to mediocre, and 20% ranges from good to great. I love fantasy fiction, but I'll readily admit that there are a lot of bad, formulaic books out there. Many of them are quite popular.

Don't dismiss the whole genre out of hand, though. Try Neil Gaiman's American Gods. It's a great story, it's set in a pretty recognizeable locale (modern day America), and it draws on mythology from a variety of different cultures in a really interesting way (I liked his London-based book Neverwhere even more, but your mileage may vary). If you like American Gods, you'll probably like just about anything by Charles DeLint (Forests of the Heart is a good, recent place to start). Clive Barker's Weaveworld is worth reading. Some of James Morrow's stuff is good (Towing Jehovah, in particular). Try The Marriage of Sticks by Jonathan Carroll. Or King Rat, by China Mieville. Or any book by Peter S. Beagle (particularly Tamsin and A Fine and Private Place).

That's just for starters...

I'll recommend James Blaylock once more for fans of contemporary fantasy. The Last Coin and The Paper Grail are both good.

Tim Powers is also a fun read. The Anubis Gates is a marvel of plotting.

Hey Tom, try Heinlein's Glory Road. A really good time send-up of heroic fantasy.

Agreed about Tim Power's The Anubis Gates. One of my favorites.

Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld series is excellent (are they still in print?).

Anyone for Prachett's Discworld? Much better than Piers Anthony's Xanth series (though I'll admit the first couple of books were enjoyable).

You want a fantasy without all the weird names? How about Austin Tappan Wright's classic novel Islandia....

Yeah, Turtledove has great ideas, and he is a historian, but his prose can be a bit dull.

>Try Neil Gaiman's American Gods.

I've thought about picking it up, but Gaiman's other prose work has never impressed me. (Good Omens was fun, but I think that had more to do with Pratchett than it did with Gaiman.)

I've heard good things about King Rat; I'll track down a copy. Has anyone read The Tooth Fairy by Graham Joyce? Any good?

Oh, I'd be remiss if I didn't recommend Mockingbird by Walter Tevis. It's a fantastic book.

--Billy

"So here's my question--can anyone recommend fantasy that isn't, well, fantasy? Something not set in some world that I can't pronounce. Is there such a thing as a post-modern fantasy book?"

Like Mark said, Tim Powers is very good. I particularly enjoyed his latest, Declare. Its set during the cold war but intermixes a lot of myth and magic. Very unusual and an excellent read.

William Harms: "I put George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan at pretty much the same level, except that I like Robert Jordan more. Robert Jordan, at least, writes the grandiose stuff well but I'm groaning in any social interaction, especially between women. I'm not about to quit after nine books though. I did give up on George Martin though."

William, you are hereby removed from this board. Kindly leave. Jordan better than Martin indeed. Hmm, what would Tom Chick say at a moment like this? Oh, I know...Pshaw! (I agree about that whole nine books approach though. I'll be damned if I don't finish the series after all this effort, poorly portrayed women and all -- God how he's become so two dimensional!) This has been done before on a different thread people, but if of you haven't read Martin's current series, you're sorely missing out.

My wife, who's read every fantasy book ever written, loves the Black Company series. She did say they weren't as good once they changed historians and hence the narrative voice, but that just could have been a mere preference on her part and I don't know how many books in that happened.

As for Pratchett, except for his early early works, all of his stuff is great. Well, in my opinion it is, but I can see how his work isn't everyone's cup of tea. His characters really grow on you, especially when the books are read aloud and done with distinct voices. Truly awesome. (Gaspode the Wonder Dog when spoken out the side of one's mouth with a twang: "That's bodin' talk, that is.")

Anyone ever read Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber(the first series)? That sort of jumped across fantasy, sci-fi, and modern-day settings. I've read it twice and it held up just as well the second time through when I was much older.

But enough of fantasy works, we've killed this horse several times over already (somebody link to the start of that older fantasy thread that was all the rage here a few months back).

I'm eager now to buy some of these recommended titles. The only book I think that might belong on this list is one I haven't read yet, but comes by way a friend's suggestion. He's one of those super-scary-genius-types and I once asked him if he could recommend just one book to *anyone*, what would it be? (mine was The Princess Bride...shows what I know, but I think it's something most people can enjoy)

He suggested Mark Helprin's "A Soldier of the Great War."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380715899/qid=999123882/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/002-4853361-7472846

The Chronicles of Amber is a series I can literally read through on a long weekend, and then start again the next day. It amazed me when I first read it, and it amazes me now.

I just finished American Gods a couple of nights ago, and I liked it, but as someone who is from not very far away some of the locals and land Gaiman describes felt a bit queasy about some of his assumptions and descriptions. (Of course, I felt that was about Fargo, too. :-)).

Personally, my biggest nice surprise of recent time has been Kage Baker's on-going "Company" series. It's part fantasy, part science fiction, part alternate history (or maybe real history). It has dragged me in nicely, although it did take a while initially.

I also have finally almost waded my way through Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars" trilogy which I like, but my eyes do tend to glaze over after reading twenty-seven pages about terraforming....

Finally, I've never been able to slog my way through Tolkien or Jordan, but I love Martin. To me, it reads like a history, and, to me, that's a good thing.

Carl

Michael Moorcock can be a mixed bag but when he's running on all cylinders, he's tough to beat.

One of my all-time favorites has to be Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd & Gray Mouser series, begining with Swords and Deviltry, featuring the Nebula award winning Ill Met in Lankhmar story. I can't play Thief or Thief II without thinking of them...

Gordon Berg:
"William Harms: "I put George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan..." "

That was actually I who wrote that, not William. I might try Storm of Swords to see if I can manage it.
It'll be something to do before The Gold Falcon.

A thousand apologies to William Harms then! (Optometrist appointment clearly way past overdue) :)


If Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings didn't do it for you, then Storm of Swords certainly won't. But if you've got the time, you could certainly do worse. ;-)

>A thousand apologies to William Harms then!

Apology accepted. :-)

I read about half of Game of Thrones, and like I said earlier, I couldn't get past all the pomp and circumstance and royal "intrigue". I hate that crap.

I've never read any of Jordan's books, primarily because I don't want to commit to reading 9 books at around 1,000 pages each. I do, however, find it interesting that there are people (and I know some of them) that don't really care for Jordan anymore but they still buy and read his new books because they've already spent so much time reading his earlier books. Human nature is a curious thing.

--Not Anders Hallin

'Harry Turtledove is awful!'

Yeah, he's kind of the "Kirk Meets Picard" fan-fiction writer of history dorks.

"Why, with your fruity french diplomacy combined with my Kennedyesque can-do attitude, we can easily defeat the enemy invented for this story!" Substitute "Churchill's British Upper Lip" as necessary.

As for Jordan - Doug's written a bit on that.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=robert+jordan+doug+erickson&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=2&selm=4hnm5c%24eff%40norm.uoknor.edu

He's soft-selling how horrible the male/female character development is, too.

"Did you ever try The Chronicles of Thomas Covenent by Stephen R. Donaldson?"

I have such fond memories of reading both of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I think I picked them up in tenth grade and they just knocked me out, once I got past the convention of the almost totally unlikeable protagonist (as he is introduced). Those books were completely immersive to me at a time in my life when I thought I was pretty much done reading fantasy.

I've read the six books at least two times and would probably even today put them (as a unit) on my list of top ten books I'd take with me for island banishment.

Hey Mark, if the debate over whether or not the posts should be archived is still alive, I beg you to archive this thread. Save it. Bronze it. Whatever.

-Amanpour

I love Zelazny's Amber series too. Anyone remember the C-64/Apple II graphic adventure game based on the first book, Nine Princes in Amber?

Yippy fucking yip! I did it! I moved the messages!

Ok, you may now talk again of books in hushed tones amid the gentle clanking of wine glasses and fusion jazz playing softly in the background.

Ok, this is a test post.

Thank you Amanpour,
my estimation of you has just grown immeasurably. I've mentioned Donaldson several times... and it's always ignored. A great example of how to do fantay while avoiding most of the genre's trappings.

And you're right, Covenent is completely unlikable. Donaldson also almost sadistically/masochistically revels in pain, suffering and degradation. Think it has something to do with his father living/working as a doctor in an Indian leper colony? Hmmm...

Might I now recommend the Gap series to you? Start with "The Real Story" you'll find the characters just as unlikable but the stories just as compelling.

(I've been searching for the Covenent stuff in hardcover for years now... to no avail)
-Andrew

"I've been searching for the Covenent stuff in hardcover for years now... to no avail"

Really? Have you tried used bookstores? Failing that, what about Amazon's zShops?

See link -- $7 for Lord Foul's Bane w/dj

used fantasy

Well,
I obviously haven't been trying hard enough.
Thanks Bruce!

Now, can you link me to the other five?
Just kidding.

-Andrew

Okay, I have a (possibly dumb) question:

I notice that Bub -- I think in this thread -- and Ron -- in the thread where Mark talks to himself about moving messages -- both infer that they don't take too kindly to Terry Brooks. Why?

I have loved everything by him that I have read. His books have been some of the easiest for me to finish. What do you guys know that I don't?

And I post this here, because this seems to be the "fantasy" thread. I didn't want to clutter up another one with this stuff...

You're welcome.

Brooks? I read the first one when it first came out and had no interest in the others. Why not? I never really thought about it other than not being all that satisfied with the initial book.

I don't mind reading crap, and in fact often prefer it these days, but I do demand that my writers either be good at the sentence and paragraph level or be good in the clever stories they tell. Brooks was neither for me in that first book.

It also rubs the wrong way when an author rips off Tolkien and gets rich. He was too successful with his copycat book. That's not right. :)

For me Brooks' Shanara books are *too* derivative of Tolkien and not as well written. They have a sort of a "Tolkien-Lite" feeling to them. Besides, who would name a character Allanon?

But he does have plenty of fans, so he must be doing something right...

---

Quote:

Besides, who would name a character Allanon?

---

Also, I thought some of his later Shannara books were better than the first, and he has a series about a "Magic Kingdom for Sale" that I thought was pretty fun.

Haven't read any of his latest stuff, though.

Now, I'm done. Thanks.

---

Quote:

I'll just re-watch Three Kings for my cinematic taste of What Post-Cold War Combat Is All About.

---

'Might I now recommend the Gap series to you? Start with "The Real Story" you'll find the characters just as unlikable but the stories just as compelling.'

I managed to get all the way to the final book in that series. I managed to put up with the sodomy, gratitutious evil, sadomasichism, a universe created to destroy humanity, that all good technology corrupts the human soul, yada yada.

I went and bought the final book in the series from the store, brought it home, and managed to get through a hundred pages or so. Then, one page whatever, I found yet another "Morn hates herself, oooh, she's so depressed and can't believe her son was corrupted by aliens and woe is her and she is such a sniveling powerless female and any twelve year old can hack her zone implants" and couldn't take it anymore: I actually hurled the book at a wall.

That's the only book I've ever taken back to the store. I thought I had a pretty high tolerance for depressing literature, but Donaldson met it. Jesus. Still a great book series, but can you stand to read it?

I doubt I'd read it again, for the reasons you mention, but you did miss a fairly nice payoff at the end of that last one.

I just loved the alien Alieness of the Amnioni. Easily, the scariest alien race I've ever come across.

-Andrew

Bookworms...four eyed nerds... anyway, did you read that link on the front page about Bradbury saying us gamers are male ego freaks? what a crotchety old man! oops OT.

btw, i was rereading some Terry Brooks and Tolkien a bit this summer... Brooks doesn't really read as well when i read him when i was younger... but Tolkien, now THATS magic!

etc

"I notice that Bub -- I think in this thread -- and Ron -- in the thread where Mark talks to himself about moving messages -- both infer that they don't take too kindly to Terry Brooks. Why?"

I have no problem with Terry Brooks, although I might if I had ever read any.

I was only commenting on the fact that this was the second time a general book thread has been consumed by postings about/lists of various fantasy books.

Not really a problem, just a curious fact. And possibly an inevitable result of having so many fantasy and sci-fi fans (as most gamers are)gathering in one place.

-Ron

RE: Three Kings

Raphael wrote: "Tom- Don't bother. The firefights in Three Kings reek of hollywood. Hrumph."

Yeah, especially the whole Bomb-on-a-Football thing. Right up there with stickybombs from Saving Private Ryan.

Actually, are there any movies that depict modern combat in all its lethality? I watched Courage under Fire recently and had to suppress a guffaw or two.

However, I do think that as a message about the role of the military in the post-Cold War world, Three Kings is a great movie. I'm predicting Ridley Scott's Blackhawk Down is going to be jingoistic crap in comparison.

Hmm, time for a new thread?

-Tom

Jesus. I just remembered... Denny, you still have my DVD of Three Kings! It's been, what? A year now?

I hope you got a chance to see it...

"I'll recommend James Blaylock once more for fans of contemporary fantasy. The Last Coin and The Paper Grail are both good."

And The Rainy Season. I liked that one quite a bit.

---

Quote:

I'm predicting Ridley Scott's Blackhawk Down is going to be jingoistic crap in comparison.

---

Bradbury's an oddball. Good fiction writer, but at some point he tried to write poetry and was just awful at it and never realized he was awful, a bit like Raymond Carver spending his last few years writing bad poetry instead of good short fiction.

I don't read much science fiction anymore, but I figured I may as well throw this one out:

Has anyone read the Reality Dysfunction series by Peter Hamilton?

It's a wild, sprawlnig, overheated, space-operatic mixture of Dawn of the Dead, Starship Troopers, and The Exorcist with a little bit of Jane Austen and The Jesus Incident thrown in for good measure.

There's a huge number of really cool ideas in it, and it's quite possibly the most plain fun I've had reading a book (books - there're six in all) since I was a kid.

"(I've been searching for the Covenent stuff in hardcover for years now... to no avail)"

Bub, it took me a couple years to put my set together. I did it almost exclusively with used books that I bought at various libraries. There always seems to be a rack of books they're trying to get rid of, and every so often the library (or the Friends of the Library, or the Cousins, or something) has a major blowout.

-Amanpour

"So here's my question--can anyone recommend fantasy that isn't, well, fantasy? Something not set in some world that I can't pronounce. Is there such a thing as a post-modern fantasy book?"

You might try Glen Cook's Black Company series. I think it has it's share of weird names, but the language is otherwise contemporary.

Myth's backstory was clearly inspired by the Black Company books.

Mark, I think there are no less than 10 messages this far discussing, reminiscing, dissecting, and name dropping this Black Company book series. Methinks you need to do less moving of posts and more reading of them.
;>

-Andrew

>Myth's backstory was clearly inspired by the Black Company books.

I'll definitely check out the Black Company. I really liked Myth's backstory and always wished that it would be expanded somehow, be it in a series of novels or comics or something.

--Billy

"Ambrose is all new to me. I don't have cable, so I won't be able to see this Band of Brothers thing based on his book. I'll be reading Citizen Soldier instead. But I love historical eye-level accounts. "

The thing that's coolm about Ambrose is that most of his books drill in on squad-level action. The people you are hearing from were all privates to captains, usually. When one of them gets killed in the history, it's a single person, not a casualty percentage from a unit or army. For me it has the effect of really humanizing the participants of WWII. I haven't read any of his non-WWII stuff.

Has anyone here read Shelby Foote's series on the Civil War? I read them about 10 years back and really loved them, but haven't run into many other folks who did.

Some poeple mentioned the Thomas Covenant books. I always thought those were horrible and depressing books. A leprous and dour main character, the knowledge that evil would not be destroyed, but at best temporarily put off. It was a long time ago, but I remember not being much impresswed with it.

"Has anyone here read Shelby Foote's series on the Civil War? I read them about 10 years back and really loved them, but haven't run into many other folks who did."

Yes. His Narrative is excellent. As I mentioned early in this massive thread, I also recommend him on Audiobook. Foote has a buttery (butternut?) Georgia accent. The Gettysburg portion, Stars in Their Courses, is one of the finest and most balanced Civil War accounts in print (or audio).

"A leprous and dour main character, the knowledge that evil would not be destroyed, but at best temporarily put off."

Actually you've hit on why I love it. It sort of crumples up and throws away all that is bright about "your typical fantasy novel". But, I don't blame you for disliking it. It's hard to take at times.

-Andrew

I don't know if it was this thread where people were talking about Harry Turtledove, but I was at the book store tonight (buying Black Company) and I saw that good ole Harry has a new book out. How in the hell can one person churn out 400+ page books every three months? Does he have a bunch of trained monkeys working for him or something?

--Billy

'How in the hell can one person churn out 400+ page books every three months? Does he have a bunch of trained monkeys working for him or something?'

Subcontracting, like those Op-Center, Power Play, and NetForce series Clancy started? Those are some amazingly bad books; I slaved through one of them over christmas out of sheer boredom.

Hey, what about William Shatner? That guy pumps out a couple of bad books a year too, doesn't he? They're all ghosted, aren't they?

Bad books, bad computer games, bad acting -- he's got a monopoly on bad.

Heh, heh!!

William Shatner wrote an article for us about his brilliant TekWar game (thank you Crapstone). I even interviewed him once, and did it on speaker phone while we all laughed at how he spoke, in an interview, much like he acts.

"Games... are not different from movies. You see... I have this experience I can bring... to games, from movies..."

It was surreal.

"we all laughed at how he spoke"

Heh! I remember when Capstone was promoting him at one of those early E3 shows...I remember thinking that he was very full of himself.

"Games... are not different from movies. You see... I have this experience I can bring... to games, from movies..."

Heh -- now that's funny.

At the Take 2 party at the last CES the industry went to (before E3 began), I actually met both William Shatner and Derek Smart.

Shatner was the calmer of the two.

"It was surreal."

That's a very funny story, Steve.

You must have been sorely tempted to imitate that cadence, just to see if he noticed. ;)

>Subcontracting, like those Op-Center, Power Play, and NetForce series Clancy started? Those are some amazingly bad books; I slaved through one of them over christmas out of sheer boredom.

Maybe, but those always have something on the cover like: Inspired by the writing of Tom Clancy or some such drivel. It's rather obvious that he didn't actually write them. The Turtledove books, on the other hand, have his name in big bold letters across the top, which leaves no doubt about who the author is (was).

That said, I do know that some authors (like Marion Zimmer Bradley) regularly used uncredited ghost writers on their books.

--Billy

The last I heard, Harry Turtledove writes thereabouts of 900,000 words of fiction per year... long hand.

It's all him.

--Dave

That's 3,000 words a day, every day of the year. Maybe 2 pages a day. Doable, but a bit unlikely for any but the most Hacky of Hacks.

I'm sure that before he got hurt Stephen King could crank out 900,000 words a year.

cool.

>That's 3,000 words a day, every day of the year. Maybe 2 pages a day.

The average page has around 250 words, so 3k words is around 12 pages and 900k words is around 3,600 pages. That's unbelievable output.

Of course, Isaac Asimov wrote, what, 600 books during his lifetime? Crazy.

--Billy

'Of course, Isaac Asimov wrote, what, 600 books during his lifetime? Crazy.'

Sure, but those were *good*. I expect masters to be able to produce an infinite supply of material, but pulp novelists?

Most of Asimov's stuff was non-fiction. He had both an incredible memory for facts and was a fast typist, from what I read.

This is late in the thread... but i never liked Ambrose (Mailer's The Naked and The Dead was probably closest to a perfect modern war book, male ego n all)... if i had to pick one war book at all, all i would need is Stephen Crane and it all could be read in less than a few hours too! plus his poetry dealt with war pretty well, meaning there is a denseness to it, in the small Dickinson meter he used (he was influenced alot by Dickinson for his poetry!) I find it pretty cool that Crane wrote a Civil War book never having been in the Civil War just using recounts from vets, and then also having a obseesion with a recluse who never left her house much! experience is naught sometimes. imagination goes forever... though it is finite i guess... woohoo!

etc

Oh i meant Crane's Red Badge of Courage the best novel they taught me in high school! (and college). You all knew that though im sure.

etc

War is Kind

I
Do not weep, maiden, for war is kind.
Because your lover threw wild hands toward the sky
And the affrighted steed ran on alone,
Do not weep.
War is kind.
Hoarse, booming drums of the regiment,
Little souls who thirst for fight,
These men were born to drill and die.
The unexplained glory flies above them,
Great is the battle-god, great, and his kingdom --
A field where a thousand corpses lie.

Do not weep, babe, for war is kind.
Because your father tumbled in the yellow trenches,
Raged at his breast, gulped and died,
Do not weep.
War is kind.
Swift blazing flag of the regiment,
Eagle with crest of red and gold,
These men were born to drill and die.
Point for them the virtue of slaughter,
Make plain to them the excellence of killing
And a field where a thousand corpses lie.

Mother whose heart hung humble as a button
On the bright splendid shroud of your son,
Do not weep.
War is kind.