Just got back from seeing Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon a second time.

I'd like to announce that it's official: wumpus has absolutely zero credibility. How someone can tune out the rest of that movie just to fixate on the fact that the actors are on wires is beyond me.

I think Steve singled out Zhang Ziyi's performance, but Michelle Yeoh was the real stand out for me. What a powerful and noble emotional anchor. It *almost* makes me want to go back and watch that wretched James Bond movie she was in.

Watching it this time, I also had Ron's comment in mind drawing a parallel to the musical sequences in Singing in the Rain. It really was amazing how the fight scenes were all the action movie analog to dance numbers: each one was choreographed and shot to further some sort of emotional subtext or dramatic conflict.

Anyway, it's all the richer seeing it a second time and I look forward to owning the DVD.

-Tom

"I'd like to announce that it's official: wumpus has absolutely zero credibility. How someone can tune out the rest of that movie just to fixate on the fact that the actors are on wires is beyond me."

That's a nice sentiment, but it isn't the thrust of my argument. It's the cheesy wire effects PLUS the cliched, sentimental storyline and plot that I really object to. This has been discussed ad nauseam times infinity to the googleplex power in the other threads, so go there if you want the minority report.

Again, not that there aren't things that CTHD did right. It's a good movie at its core...

... but not as good as CROUCHING PENCIL, HIDDEN STICKFIGURE! ;)

http://12.1.228.185/video/crouching_pencil_hidden_stickfigure.avi (1.4mb)

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Watching it this time, I also had Ron's comment in mind drawing a parallel to the musical sequences in Singing in the Rain."

Credit where credit is due: The dance/action sequence corollary was originally made by John Woo in some interview or article I read many years ago.

"Michelle Yeoh was the real stand out for me."

One of the things I liked best about Crouching Tiger was that her emotionally gravity seemed right for the character. In other films (Heroic Trio, Tai Chi Master, the mostly-bad Supercop 2), the fact that she always looks so damn sad and serious seems out of place in what is otherwise light fare. She's great in all of them, nonetheless.

I've never seen Stunt Woman, but supposedly it's a very sad, relatively autobiographical film in which she plays the titular fall gal. I would imagine that being such a badass would have its drawbacks in the HK cinema.

It's ironic that Chow Yun-Fat and Michelle Yeoh would have some crossover success with a Chinese film after having tried unsuccessfully to breakthrough in American films. Maybe Jet Li will take note and go back to what he does best.

(Does anyone know if it's true that Jet Li's voice is almost always dubbed? After hearing him speak in Romeo Must Die, it wouldn't surprise me.)

>>I think Steve singled out Zhang Ziyi's performance, but Michelle Yeoh was the real stand out for me. What a powerful and noble emotional anchor. It *almost* makes me want to go back and watch that wretched James Bond movie she was in.

Well, yeah... the look on her face throughout was heartbreaking. She was fantastic, and I really do with the Academy would have considered her or Ziyi in the supporting actress category. There really wasn't a true lead in the movie... probably Ziyi was the closest. It was a true ensemble piece.

"Anyway, it's all the richer seeing it a second time and I look forward to owning the DVD."

I was thinking that same thing tonight at work. My mind was wandering over the territory of the film; I'm just so taken with it. Those of you who have seen it, please see it a second time. It more than holds up, it reveals itself more. It left me breathless.

In thinking about the DVD I started thinking about extra material. The TITUS dvd--actually a great two disc set--has some wonderful extra material, including footage of the cast first assembling and doing early readthroughs. I'd love to see something similar with Crouching Tiger...to see them discussing and working out the fight choreography would be fascinating.

Amanpour

"It more than holds up, it reveals itself more."

The second time I saw it, it was on an Imax screen. The sound was unbelievable - the seats were shaking.

I was afraid the film wouldn't hold up to a second viewing but, like you, I found it even better. I was able to just enjoy the pacing, and not get antsy for the next fight scene.

And I wasn't thinking "This is a really long flashback" - something I was strangely aware of during my first viewing.

Minor spoilers ahead.

What was most strange, though, was that I was still very involved in the end, despite knowing the outcome. I remember reading an interview with some director (I can't remember who), and he was saying that one of the reasons Romeo and Juliet remains so powerful is that, despite knowing the ending, you still hope that she will wake up earlier every time you see/read it.

I felt like the ending of Crouching Tiger had the same effect - that sequence is edited beautifully. And Cho Yun-Fat's little speech killed me again. Oh, man.

>>And Cho Yun-Fat's little speech killed me again. Oh, man.

He had me at, "Urrrghhh."

"And I wasn't thinking "This is a really long flashback" - something I was strangely aware of during my first viewing."

Same thing here.

"What was most strange, though, was that I was still very involved in the end, despite knowing the outcome."

Agree here too. I was more on my toes for the ending this time. I think I was looking harder for a clearer sense of what the ending might mean. So many people asked me in the interim between my two viewings for an interpretation of what Jen's final action means, that I was on the edge of my seat watching it.

Amanpour

theres the foreshadowing in the movie that isnt evident til you know the story that especially makes every scene in the movie work well with 2nd viewing. it feels like a tragic romance ala Romeo and Juliet. Especially with the ending when you know whats going to happen, i was paying more attention to the words and music. . . it felt tragic (though some have interpreted the ending optimistically), but somehow uplifting in a weird way. . . i cant explain it. not many movies have this feeling at the end. . . at least for me.

also, theres the eastern feel thats foregin to most western movies. . . there a predestined feel to the lives of the characters, as if they know there outcome. . . and accepting it, even at the beginning of the movie.

etc

I've just seen CTHD for the first time yesterday, and I must say that Wumpus is, without a doubt, insane. The movie definitely deserved it's Academy nomination.

"I've just seen CTHD for the first time yesterday, and I must say that Wumpus is, without a doubt, insane."

Are you kidding me? I'm the last sane one left! Hell is other people, after all.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

>>Hell is other people, after all.

I heard Hell was for children. At least that's what Pat Benatar said.

wumpus, if you don't accept CTHD as MOTY, I'm going to rescind my nomination of CS as GOTY.

"wumpus, if you don't accept CTHD as MOTY, I'm going to rescind my nomination of CS as GOTY."

Well YCCOM was also VG, perhaps MOTY. As was RFAD according to TC although IHNSIY, MTMS. If we think of MOTY as similar to AA or the O, then it's hard to see a MOTY from TY that would be as good as a MOTY from LY IMHO, anyway. Just compare TTL's from LY and TY! BMIJHRLYMOFAP.

I'm sure some would say so, anyway.

Amanpour

"wumpus, if you don't accept CTHD as MOTY, I'm going to rescind my nomination of CS as GOTY."

It's definitely the foreign film of the year. But I enjoyed Traffic so much more. Did CTHD have white teenage girls having sex with black drug dealers? I think not.

"I'm sure some would say so, anyway."

Sometimes you're a little too precious for your own good. IMNSHO.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Did CTHD have white teenage girls having sex with black drug dealers? I think not."

You know, that was one of my big problems with Traffic. That scene was so racially manipulative - whether unintentionally or not, it was definitely edited to emphasize race. As if this girl couldn't sink any lower than to have sex with a black man!

Interesting aside: I was talking to friend of mine from Brazil, and she hated Traffic. When I asked her why, she said it was the most stupidly pro-America film she'd ever seen. Something to think about...

yeah Traffic is the overrated movie of y2k imo. . . all the loaded (imo inherently racist scenes) stereotypes of stupid rich white teenagers, the evil black ghetto, harmless rich white drug dealers, slanty eyed Mexicans. . . big deal. . . surprising this was the movie made by the guy who made Erin Bronkovich (nice feel-good movie).

what troubled me about Traffic was that it plays on the stereotypes. . . and makes them all appear as fact. . . what with all the grainy and diluted camera stock and "realistic" drug scenes . . . nothing plays better on America's xenophobia than this movie does.

almost as low as Spielberg bullying the public to cry in every scene of Saving Private Ryan (or ANY of his recent movies for that matter). . . though SPR is technically a great movie!

etc

TRAFFIC SPOILER

also the end of Traffic gives me chuckles, with Michael Douglas stepping down from the job, with the daughter in rehab and the family back together again. . . happy and adjusted.

Even MTV's Real World is more REAL then that!

the movie should have just stuck with the law enforcement perspective. . . i didn't give a rats ass about Douglas and Zeta-Jones, call me cold but there characters were DUMB.

etc

"Interesting aside: I was talking to friend of mine from Brazil, and she hated Traffic. When I asked her why, she said it was the most stupidly pro-America film she'd ever seen. Something to think about... "

That's okay, because Brazil is pretty damn stupid, too. It's all about the Sergio Mendes.

Maybe she's referring to the relationship we have with Mexico as documented in the movie. South Americans don't think too fondly of "El Norte" anyway, historically speaking.

"That scene was so racially manipulative - whether unintentionally or not, it was definitely edited to emphasize race. As if this girl couldn't sink any lower than to have sex with a black man!"

I think that's your american background talking. We notice race more than most do. Besides, it didn't matter what race the guy was, the important thing was that he had _drugs_, and she had her body. It was played for shock only in the sense that it's shocking to fuck for drugs, period.

"what troubled me about Traffic was that it plays on the stereotypes. . . and makes them all appear as fact. . . "

Yeah, but stereotypes exist for a reason. They are generally true. Are drugs more prevalent in poor areas? yes. Are black people more prevalent in poor areas? yes. So in that sense, they are facts-- statistically speaking. Besides, it's just a movie, not a documentary.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"wumpus, if you don't accept CTHD as MOTY, I'm going to rescind my nomination of CS as GOTY."

MOTY was absolutely, without a doubt, Requiem for a Dream. I saw both CTHD and that, and it's not even close.

"I think that's your american background talking."

Given that it was an American movie made for American audiences, approaching it from an American perspective seems perfectly reasonable. Expected, even.

"It's definitely the foreign film of the year."

I liked East, West better.

"MOTY was absolutely, without a doubt, Requiem for a Dream. I saw both CTHD and that, and it's not even close. "

I need to see that, since Tom waxes poetic about it as well.. my wife said it's still in theaters here. Guess I'll have to wait for the video release.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Given that it was an American movie made for American audiences, approaching it from an American perspective seems perfectly reasonable. Expected, even."

Regardless, the way Traffic handled that scene was far more subtle than.. say.. a Spike Lee movie. It wasn't really about race, just the reality of having no money and being a junkie. That's what happens.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

There was an article about Crouching Tiger in today's NYT (front page of Living Arts), the thrust of which was that while it's on track to be the most successful foreign language film ever (expected to top $100 million in gross revenues), it's doing poorly in Hong Kong. There are some funny quotes, including one guy who says "there's not enough action in it," and another who comments, "Seeing people run across roofs and trees might be novel for Americans, but we've seen it all before."

"Seeing people run across roofs and trees might be novel for Americans, but we've seen it all before."

Bah, it's another Blair Witch. Totally overhyped.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

p.s. Go buy a copy of Undying. I haven't had this much fun with a B-grade FPS since Requiem.

Yes, this is to be filed under the "Flogging a Dead Horse" header, but I had to revisit this thread.

A few months ago I was working in an area high school observing a couple English classes. I tend to take notes on just about everything that happens, and so when the teacher asked his students for their opinions of the various films that were in theatres, I wrote down what they said. The other day I had to dig out my observation sheets and I found the notes.

The teacher asked about CTHD. This was the response:

"That movie sucked...you had to read the lyrics for two hours...and people don't really fight like that, flying around."

So there you have it. We now know where Wumpus spends his days.

Oh, and here's a bonus quote that has nothing to do with movies. Somehow the discussion meandered over to prank phone calling (I think the teacher asked what the kids had done over the weekend, besides make prank phone calls):

"With Star 69 prank calling is like a lost art. You call somebody and they like call you back a second later."

Amanpour

Priceless, Amanpour. Simply priceless!

CTHD and Traffic were my two recent favourite films. The difference between the two is that I still think about CTHD even now and not Traffic.

Who cares about the subtitles ? I just wish I could speak Mandarin and understand all the subtle nuances of their speech that do not translate well in the English subtitles.

But I would never want to see this film dubbed - it would destroy it.