Today the Taliban says they DO know where Bin Ladin is, and imply they might think about handing him over if the U.S. provides some evidence. They are obviously reading the same news reports everyone else are reading, including the Russians saying they will roll tanks in to support the Afghan opposition (never been one to take advantage of a situation, those rascally Ruskies.) And trying to figure out some way to save their oppressive little hides, which seem to not be worth much on the hides futures markets these days.

So - here's the scheme. Find a Bin Ladin look-alike. Convince him this is as good as crashing a plane filled with innocent men, women, and children into a bunch of innocent men, women, and children in terms of pleasing Allah. Turn him over to the U.S. in plain view of the world. The smile and wave goodbye (if that isn't in the same category as flying kites, which apparently is one of the executable offenses in their regime.)

And how in the heck would we know any different? All he has to do is answer every question with "You American swine satans would never understand the true way" and "Allah u Ahkbar!" If we say "you know, he looks a little different than we thought" the Taliban just answers "well, ya know, hiding out in primitive caves can take a lot out of a guy, and planning mass murders that make Hitler giggle in his grave can add to the ole stress wrinkles around the eyes!"

Yeah, this sounds like the perfect plan. I hope the Taliban doesn't read QT3, or I'm gonna feel real guilty.

You can't be serious!?!?

There are people in the world who don't read Quarter to Three??

Idiots.

I thought we were talking about anti-Taliban measures. Here is what I thought of recently. I heard that we can identify the source of nuclear material by analyzing the fallout, because Russian and Chinese isotopes differ from ours due to refining differences. Assuming that is true, we have plenty of Russian nuclear material that we have purchased from them, if not outright bombs. Use that material to build a good-sized bomb, and then smuggle it into the target area in Afghanistan and set it off. Immediately express horror, and explain that there was no way it could have been ours, and that there is no record of our planes or missiles in the area. Analyze the fallout, and show the world that it was probably a stolen or purchased Russian bomb that likely went off accidentally. I'm sure we could fabricate what we need to in order to show some massive money transfers or whatever else we need to convince the world that Osama had a bomb.

Thank you Tom Clancy.

Hey, let's get rid of Bin Ladin, and insert our own look-alike. That could be LOADS of fun!

Hmmm. Who do we know that looks like that jolly old man? I'm sure Chick has the acting talent, but he's a bit young and too small of a frame to pull this off.

It bothers me sometimes that Bin Laden doesn't look like a supervillain. Or even a thug. He looks like a smart young student (he has a very youthful face and smart, almost kind, eyes). When holding an AK-47 he looks like his daddy is making him pose holding it.

Damn puppy dog Most Wanted Terrorist bastard.

-Andrew

Well he was a smart Saudi Arabian student before he became an international terrorist.

You want a solution for the Taliban? How about removing their power over their people? What if we established schools, and medical care, and gave assistance with food crops that were tolerant of their climate and soil?

Dictators love poverty. A populace that doesn't have to spend almost all it's time just trying to survive rarely has the patience for them these days.

Sure Kazz.
Especially since we're doing such a great job schooling, feeding, and providing free health care here at home.

Your suggestion would also require our taking and holding the country. Since their ideology isn't an easily replaced "ism", it's a religion, we'd be under constant "partisan" attack. The troop cost to us would be enormous, not to mention the money.

-Andrew

Heh. I got an e-mail from one of my co-workers suggesting that we have the Special Forces capture bin Laden, bring him here, perform a sex-change operation on him, and make him live under the Taliban as a woman! Funny stuff!

He'd be one ugly woman, though...

Kazz's proposal is actually pretty much what I think the goal of the current action is. Not us taking power, of course, but the Afghan folks who oppose the Taliban. The Taliban is a very small minority of the Afghan people, they just happen to be the ones that have the military and police power.

Once the new Afghan regime takes over, make sure that they have the best help we can give them with schooling, food, medicine, and agriculture. And Andrew, you must admit while we're not perfect, America does pretty well in the above areas. ;) We can certainly help the Afghans move up from where they are today - there are huge, huge numbers of innocent people there that don't have food or medicine.

I do admit that. But you framed it differently than Xaroc did. Xaroc, probably not seriously, suggested we do all that. I think we should set up a regime to do that in our stead. Hopefully a democratic but definitely a toothless one. Otherwise we're going to be putting ourselves at significant risk and expense.

"Nation building" is probably the best thing we could possibly do in the aftermath of all this.
I glad to see you think so Jeff. Now, someone tell me why Bush and Rumsfeld keep saying they aren't "into" Nation Building? They seem to be painting themselves into a corner here.

Afghanistan has a distrubing history of being destroyed, then left alone, then becoming a major problem again. We need to, as Powell put it, drain the swamp.

-Andrew

"The Taliban is a very small minority of the Afghan people, they just happen to be the ones that have the military and police power"

Not to quibble, but I think the Taliban is actually made up of the ethnic *majority* in Afghan. I think the big issue with toppling them is organizing the remaining small factions into some sort of political body that can actually govern and thrive.

"We can certainly help the Afghans move up from where they are today"

Well, that's the thing. It's so bad that *anything* is going to be an improvement. We just have to make sure it doesn't turn into another Somalia.

"Now, someone tell me why Bush and Rumsfeld keep saying they aren't "into" Nation Building?"

I listened carefully to Rumsfeld on some of the weekend news and interview shows. I think what the administration is trying to convey is that we (America) don't want to be seen as a power that is exerting its might to install new governments that we like better than the ones that currently exist. I.e., we aren't removing the Taliban from power because we don't like their politics - if they weren't aiding and abetting (does anyone ever abet without aiding?) terrorism, we wouldn't be taking them out.

Although I say some things about my distaste for giving money and resources to nations that spit in our face, I think that our enourmous economic power, combined with our nation's enormous wealth of people willing to go into poor nations and teach (agriculture, economics, medicine, education, etc.) and help, should be proactively used. If some administration and congress/house could get their act together, we could use this power to make huge changes in the world. We could even start close to home: We should be trading with Cuba, helping their economy, feeding them, etc. We should have been actively finding ways to help the Afghan people before this event. How to balance supporting and helping the people of a poor nation, when that nation is ruled by a cruel despot, is a balancing act that requires far more skill and experience than someone like I possess, but I would imagine that there are pros in this country who do know how to do this.

Serious comment:

The next government we put in place in Afghanistan should be better than the last one we helped get into power.

Unserious comment:

Get rid of the Taliban? Sure. Just send Gord over to slap 'em to death.

I think Bub misunderstands me. I suggested removing the Taliban's power, then listed the way I thought was the way to do it. Bub seems to think I suggested removing them from power, THEN doing the other things.

I think you guys are being pretty presumptuous about us "installing" other governments over there. It hasn't worked for anyone else who tried, no matter how aggressive or well-armed they were. Afghanis are fiercely nationalistic, and without the support of the populous, any military involvement over there is likely to come to little. Any "installed" government would fall apart as soon as our troops withdrew.

You need to hit them where they live. Right now the muslim world thinks the US is an enemy of Islam. If we're going to make an example here, the better example might be to improve the lives of the starving wretches over there instead of blasting them. I think it's a very canny thing, us giving them food and radios and aid, all the while making sure that the Taliban doesn't get the credit. If we are saviors instead of invaders, THEN maybe we will get what we want over there, and be better off with the other muslim nations to boot.

Bub said:

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Quote:

I do admit that. But you framed it differently than Xaroc did. Xaroc, probably not seriously, suggested we do all that.

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I took it at face value Kazz,
you said:
"What if we established schools, and medical care, and gave assistance with food crops that were tolerant of their climate and soil?"

The only way to establish our own schools would be to occupy the country significantly and build them from scratch. That isn't nation building, that's an occupation. That's something I don't think we can afford.

Now, if you're suggesting we help a new regime build schools, I agree.

-Andrew

Who said anything about building our own schools? There are plenty of aid organizations that could be worked through. In fact, a valuable jewel in this whole coalition thing could be the establishment of a council of Islamic teachers that can help establish schools that are friendly to their culture, but still provide good education.

I heard that the average terrorist is college-educated, or the equivalent thereof. That seeme to indicate to me that we are actually being victimized by the elite, not by uneducated recruits. Thing is, until they have a reasonable affluence for the average person, these nations will probably remain hostile and shelter the dangerous ones.