I've been playing most of the evening, and just got through the first level of Act II after, oh, 4.5 hours or so. I forget how many acts there are, but I *THINK* it's like 3 or 4. If it's 4, and they're all about as long as Act I, the game is plenty long for an action title.

So far, I'm *REALLY* liking it. The gunfights just plain rock. You seem to get into a cool combat all the time, even when you just run into a random group of thugs. They learned from Thief and NOLF and made you overhear thugs talking before you come across them, which not only keeps you from turning a corner and being totally surprised, but makes the world seem more real.

Great environments, too.

Control and movement is spot-on. It's easy to do impressive-looking moves. And after 4 hours, the bullet-time stuff hasn't started to get old yet at all.

The one annoyance is how they went overbaord on the "dark New York noir" thing. The cut-scene painting are great, and Max's voice is great, but the writing is kinda hammy - too many detective novel metaphors and stuff. And the thugs have almost cartoonish "new york bad guy" voices.

Even that, though, really stopped bothering me after an hour or two. It's just so consistent that it fits into the whole sort of vision for the game world. It's not the real world, it's this detective-novel cliche version of it, and it ultimately works. It's just a little annoying at the start.

The first mission of Act II, a dream sequence you play through, is AWESOME. VERY nicely done.

Who else picked it up? What do you think?

What type of system are you playing the game on? I understand the requirements to get the full effect are pretty steep.

I hope this game rocks, but I am waiting to hear some feedback and read some reviews before I pick it up.

-DavidCPA

I agree with Jason about the gun battles; They're a lot of fun. And "bullet-time" is a really neat feature that immediately feels right. Just like Tribes made games without jetpacks feel sort of strange, I may never be able to play another shooter without automoatically reaching for the slow-motion dive button.

I disagree with him about the story and dialog, however, which are over-the-top awful. And it looks like Remedy either cast themselves or their seventeen year old friends in all the major roles.

And also, "automoatically" is a word I made up in an attempt to make that post more poetic. And also, Max Payne looks good, but it really does go overboard on the warehouse environments. But it's fun, so I'm not complaining much.

It's supposed to take place during a blizzard so bad that it shuts down New York. But whenever you're outside, it just looks like a very light snowfall. Again, this shouldn't keep you away from the game. But you'd think people from Finland would know what a decent blizzard looks like.

Is there any other interaction beyond shooting -- can you "use" items, for instance? Can you walk into a bar, hit the space bar in front of a dancer, for instance, and hear "shake it baby"?

'Is there any other interaction beyond shooting -- can you "use" items, for instance? Can you walk into a bar, hit the space bar in front of a dancer, for instance, and hear "shake it baby"?'

There's some of that stuff. You can shoot pictures off the walls, use the soda machines, and some things like that, but it doesn't add much to the game. No strippers so far (or any pedestrian traffic for that matter. Thanks to the "blizzard", the streets - and for some reason the buildings - are all deserted), but the vibrating beds actually work.

"What type of system are you playing the game on? I understand the requirements to get the full effect are pretty steep."

At home, I'm playing on a PIII-733, with a GeForce 2 and... er... 512MB RAM. But I do have all the detail levels cranked to full (which makes the game really damn pretty), and it plays nice and smooth.

"But whenever you're outside, it just looks like a very light snowfall. Again, this shouldn't keep you away from the game. But you'd think people from Finland would know what a decent blizzard looks like."

Actually, that DOES constitute a major snowstorm in NYC, so I'd have to say that I'm impressed with the Fins for not overdoing it. That, and there's probably some limit on the number of particles they can generate without totally killing your framerate... ;)

I'm liking the game a lot, BTW, even the over-the-top dialogue and writing (which I think is one of those things that you either love or hate--at least it's consistent, and gives the game a very cohesive style).

"There's some of that stuff. You can shoot pictures off the walls, use the soda machines, and some things like that, but it doesn't add much to the game."

Actually, I'd argue that it does. I mean, none of the interactions really add much to the game on their own, but taken as a whole the amazing amount of attention to detail make the environments feel much more believable. Little things like a leaky ceiling in an apartment, with buckets of water underneath to catch the drips. Or all the billboards and signs (and the sign for the NY subway card, which looks nearly identical to the real thing). The working "magic fingers" on the beds in the tenaments. Or the fact that the seconds hand on the clock in the subway actually moves.

None of these things are major or critical, but the cumulative affect does add a lot to the immersiveness of the levels.

"None of these things are major or critical, but the cumulative affect does add a lot to the immersiveness of the levels."

Eh. Having an arbitrary 1/4 of the objects react to my actions just makes me more aware of the fact that the other 75% don't. But, you know, that's just like my opinion, man.

I am happy that the developers haven't given in too much to the swirly, swooping school of video game cinematography.

Speaking of interaction, the "enemy dispenser" button in the tutorial is probably worth all the interactivity in a typical action game all by itself. =)

Seriously though, there's about as much world interaction as in most action games. Probably more. You press buttons, flip levels, open cabinets, turn on TVs, etc.

Erik - how far have you gotten? I found the voice acting for Max himself quite excellent (for the style they're shooting for), and later in Act I it started to genuinely improve. Either that, or I'm getting wrapped up in the style, which is just as good. I mean, it's not NOLF's writing/acting, but it's on par with most games and much more consistant in style.

Given what movies make a ton of money these days, the general public will probably think it's the best acting ever.

The snowstorm: NYC people are babies. Freakin' two inches of snow and they have a fit. They close off roads and shut down businesses and schools for like 3-4 inches of snow - up here in Burlington, you go to school or work if there were "only" 14 inches the night before.

I don't think the requirements are that steep. People with a 450 and TNT2 (minimum requirements) are going to have a decent time with it. But that's not steep requirements, that's "your machine sucks." That was state of the art like THREE years ago. If you have a system that was high-end at any time in the last 18 months, you'll be in good shape. I mean, a P3-800 and GeForce 2 (state of the art in spring '00) would let you crank it up nearly all the way.

"Erik - how far have you gotten?"

I'm at the end of Act 2. The voice acting isn't bad. It's the words that I'm opposed to. And the - I don't know what to call it - the face acting. The voices do not match the people supposedly speaking them, who all look like kids - especially the police captain.

Like I said, though, it would only really bother me if the gameplay itself was bad. On the other hand, 3D Realms is definitely trying to sell it as a gritty, hard hitting tale of life in the big city. There's no woman on a toilet, but a baby is killed at the beginning, which usually means serious drama. Maybe Remedy meant it to be absurd, and the people at 3D Realms just didn't get it. I don't know. There appears to be a big disconnect between the packaging and the game.


Max Payne is a better game, but I think Kingpin displayed a much more unique and interesting visual style while presenting the same sorts of environments.

I want to make it clear, however, that I *like* Max Payne a lot. I think you should buy it.

I like Max Payne a lot when it works. There is a Win2k/GeForce3 combo issue that dumps you back to desktop during level loads (this is happening to me). They are working on a patch but it sucks to play through just a single level and have to quit. The bullet time thing is awesome and I don't think it is going to get boring.

If they don't get it patched by tonight I will just load it up in Win98 and keep going.

Spotted at Remedy's Web site:

MAX PAYNE V1.01 PATCH FAQ

Last updated: July 26 2001

We've finished a patch (download size: 6.2 MB) which is now in testing and will be hopefully
released later today. Download information will be available here and at 3D Realms' homepage.

We're sorry for any problems caused for people who couldn't get the game to run, or it had
stability problems. If there are still problems after this patch, we will do our best to get them fixed ASAP.

Max Payne Development Team.

The patch to version 1.01 addresses the following issues:
- Exit to desktop stability issues addressed: The issues with the game crashing into Windows' desktop when loading a new map have been addressed.
- Game doesn't start with some CD-Rom drives: A newer version of SafeDisc copy protection is used. If the game still doesn't start up, please contact [email protected]

For other troubleshooting, please refer to the game readme.

Thanks for the info John. I am glad they are moving this quickly to address this issue.

"The snowstorm: NYC people are babies."

The problem in NYC is that even if you only get a few inches of snowfall, when it all gets plowed to the sidewalk, you end up having to scale huge piles of snow to get anywhere. Worst part is the snow piles usually appear at intersections, so you crest the pile, then have to slide down a 6 foot bank into oncoming traffic. Talk about needing good timing.

Seattle is where the babies are. No infastructure at all to support snow storms. My first year here all the local TV news stations billed 2 inches of snow as Blizzard '96--action cam news reports, the whole shit.

I cannot wait to grab a copy of Max Payne. Are you guys getting this from retail outlets? Has it shown up in stores yet?

Yep. Both EB and Babbages have it. And if the stores in Burlington, VT have a game, then it's a good bet that EVERYONE has it.

I'm with Erik on the interaction. Opening cabinets isn't particularly compelling. You want to avoid the drudgery of real life. Watching someone play Shenmue, I was just like, "Um, is searching through sock drawers fun?"

I'd rather there be fewer interactions with more depth and meaning. It's like a movie in the sense you edit out the long boring passages and focus on those things which propel you forward. Or something.

Oh, and I should point out, in light of that other thread about game length, a great way to artificially lengthen a game is to give you meaningless interaction with lots of objects in the gameworld. If you give players the ability to open every door and drawer, you can really pad out a game. But to me it adds very little to the experience, other than giving you a feeling of either missing stuff if you don't do it, or of general tedium if you do.

Sometimes meaningless interaction can give the gameworld a feeling of being more real. Like being able to shoot hoops in System Shock 2 or Deus Ex. The most amazing gameworld I can remember was Ultima 7 you could go into pretty much every container in the game. It could be tedious to go through all of them but after a bit you learned where to look for the good stuff. Plus Iolo would split if you stole too much stuff. :)

"I'm with Erik on the interaction. Opening cabinets isn't particularly compelling. You want to avoid the drudgery of real life."

I'm not talking about just interaction, but rather the level of detail as a whole. I like that there are stupid soap operas and David Lynch parodies playing on the televisions, and that you can stop and listen to them for a while (and even if you don't, they add to the atmosphere as you walk by them). I like that sometimes when you shoot a cash register the drawer will fly open and bills will flutter everywhere. I like that when you put a bullet in a plaster wall, little bits of plaster pour out, but when you shoot a wooden wall, they don't. If your argument is "environments that don't react to player actions are more fun," then you'll have a difficult time convincing me. Avoiding the drudgery of life is all good and well, but I like a little verisimilitude in my games, too.

The stuff that you can interact with is a part of that, obviously, and while I don't want games to make me do boring tasks, I'd have to say that most of the interactive... things... in Max Payne are made to be obviously optional. If you use the "Magic Fingers" in the hotel, for instance, the bed vibrates. Or if you use the toilet, it flushes. It's pretty obvious that none of these things are required of you, though.

As for cabinets, I like objects that appear in logical places, like painkillers in the medicine cabinet, so that really doesn't bother me, either. My only real complaint there is that the "use" key should work from a greater distance (as it is, you have to move up so close to the cabinet that you then have to back away again to give it room to open).

"I like that sometimes when you shoot a cash register the drawer will fly open and bills will flutter everywhere. I like that when you put a bullet in a plaster wall, little bits of plaster pour out, but when you shoot a wooden wall, they don't. If your argument is "environments that don't react to player actions are more fun," then you'll have a difficult time convincing me."

Me and Mr. Ben Sones are together on this one. I was mainly dismissing pointless objects that you actually have to approach and manually use. Since Max Payne is all about recreating wild cinematic gunfights, the more things that respond to *that* activity, the better. Whatever resources Remedy put into doing things like getting the beds to vibrate could have been better used making and placing more objects that shatter, blow up, or tip over when hit with bullets. For instance, stocking the back of the bar with rows upon rows of bottles that shatter when shot would have had a lot more impact on the "immersiveness" of the game than having the soda machines actually work. Do that kind of stuff only after you absolutely can't think of anything else to make blow up. That's Erik's rule for developing Max Payne.

I'll stand behind Erik's rule for developing Max Payne 100%. In fact, I'd change the name to "Erik's Rule" and have everyone nod solemly whenever it is referenced. Add it to Gamespot's ratings along with "Chet's Crate Factor" (we'll call it that so Chet feels included). So, color me agreed, as an impartial observer, because I haven't installed Max Payne yet. Tell me, does the game feature doves?

Incidentally these extras were one of the things that made DieByTheSword such a great game despite it's brevity. Gameplay extras like the rope trap, the shattering crates (I know, but they were put to good use), the Orcish Temple area, the war between the insect guys and the orcs... man, it was short, but anyone who gave up on the control system missed a lot of great details. No virbating beds though...

-Andrew

"Yep. Both EB and Babbages have it. And if the stores in Burlington, VT have a game, then it's a good bet that EVERYONE has it."

Shucks Ben, you said the "B" word. Burlington is my home town. I still miss it.

As for Max Payne, it seems ok to me. The writing is horrible and the opening scene that's supposed to be dramatic is so hamfisted I started giggling. The action is good, with some interesting things that can happen visually (I once jumped backwards,gunned down a bag guy, and landed on a bed). However, it's all rather repetative. Enter room. Dive, Shoot. Dive, shoot. Dive, shoot.

THE SINGLE BEST THING ABOUT MAX PAYNE...

I just got home, opened the box... and a DVD case fell out.

SWEET.

I toss jewel cases that don't have serial numbers on them... because they suck and I never put games back in them anyway - they always go into a binder (or a stack of naked disks on the corner of the desk if they suck.)

Well, I'm greatly pleased that this is the first game I own that will actually live in its little home. I wish EVERY game had one of these. In fact, let's stop screwing around with big empty boxes all together and just stack up these DVD cases on the shelves. Nothing anymore comes with a manual that needs a big box anyway :-)

I know what you mean. Interplay has me on a list that gets me a Gold version in a DVD case (usually with custom art) and then a boxed retail version much later. Invariably I continue to use the DVD case Gold version when I play the game.

I love boxes, but it's time to go with the DVD case standard. Bigger manual? Bigger DVD case please. Collector's Edition? Ok, box then.

-Andrew

"Well, I'm greatly pleased that this is the first game I own that will actually live in its little home. I wish EVERY game had one of these. In fact, let's stop screwing around with big empty boxes all together and just stack up these DVD cases on the shelves. Nothing anymore comes with a manual that needs a big box anyway :-)"

I say Amen brother! It may be the future because Operation Flashpoint is actually SOLD in its DVD style case. Whats a manual?

Ok, the DVD box gets major points. I wonder if it wasn't being sold with a mouse pad, but they would still put the game in a box?

"What's a manual?"

It's that thingie you start to flip through after you realize that you don't know how to do something important. :)

I don't get the whole DVD box thing. They're bigger and harder to store. Why is this better than an easily-stackable jewel box that you can also stand on its side? The only advantage I see is that the cover doesn't break off.

PS2 games have been coming in DVD cases all along. I guess this is a little more understandable since they're more likely to be stored near the TV with the actual DVDs, but I still find it annoying.

"The only advantage I see is that the cover doesn't break off."

That's a pretty big advantage in my opinion. I don't know how many jewel boxes I've gotten that were pre-cracked. I think the DVD case looks nice, is big enough to allow for some quality box art, and can hold a manual of a reasonable size.

It's also conceivable that with a DVD case, you would no longer need all of that paper packaging. This is something I'd like to see become the norm.

DVD cases look good on bookshelves.
That's pretty much all I care about because I don't stack them any other way.

The best reason for pushing DVD cases in the PC game industry is because they still allow room for a manual (simple jewel cases don't really provide enough room) and at retail you can fit so many more onto a shelf. Plus, you can still face forward the games that are popular.

To solve Bruce's "problem", a DVD game case could be made more angular and therefore more stackable. Really, it's about getting rid of these giant and hard to store boxes and the redundancy of having a plastic box inside of a cardboard box. (Why are we storing boxes? Because we are collectors and therefore insane.)

The third reason is because it's cheaper for developers to make and ship, and with this economy that's a pretty good thing too.
-Andrew

"DVD cases look good on bookshelves. That's pretty much all I care about because I don't stack them any other way."

I suppose if you're displaying video games that would make sense, although that seems kind of tacky.

"Really, it's about getting rid of these giant and hard to store boxes and the redundancy of having a plastic box inside of a cardboard box."

I think the manuals are probably the only think that kept games from going the way of music CDs. Remember when they all came in those giant cardboard boxed that had nothing else in them? If there weren't a need to package manuals, I think computer games would have gone this way as well.


"The third reason is because it's cheaper for developers to make and ship"

I was only asking what people actually liked about them, but you're correct that this is almost certainly the driving force behind the change.

"I suppose if you're displaying video games that would make sense, although that seems kind of tacky."

Maybe so. I display them for the same reason I like to showcase books. (Only the games I love though (also some of the games I truly hated).) Tacky though? I just can't take that criticism from you Bruce... especially if you still have that mounted SMAC tech poster on your wall. ;>

"Remember when they all came in those giant cardboard boxed that had nothing else in them?"

I certainly do. I worked at a CD store in the late 80's and the driving force to have the cardboard was actually anti-theft, and one of the driving forces to get rid of them was waste (environmental groups were pissed).

-Andrew

The computer game boxes are still one of the chief marketing tools used to sell the game, I've been told by marketing people in the industry. That's a big reason why they have been reluctant to move away from them.

Yeah, you just can't get as many screenshots on a DVD case as you can on a PC game box.

Heck, I like. I keep all of mine. (At least, all the ones that my wife doesn't get ahold of!)

"I just can't take that criticism from you Bruce... especially if you still have that mounted SMAC tech poster on your wall."

Which is in my writing office where pretty much no one goes but me. I certainly wouldn't use it as decoration.

I guess I never understood the whole idea of displaying tapes, CDs, movies, whatever. Again, it just seems tacky.

[CD boxes]

I remember the anti-theft arguments, and always wondered how valid they were considering the relatively painless switch to the current method. I was involved in the sale of a record chain from the investment banking side soon after the changeover and when we asked about the level of theft losses with the new packaging, we found it was pretty much the same. I suspected it was marketing by the record companies (who wanted more space to print catchy graphics) but I couldn't believe the sales benefits outweighed the production costs.

"The computer game boxes are still one of the chief marketing tools used to sell the game"

If that's true, then I have an easier time believing that the big CD boxes were about marketing as well.

"Which is in my writing office where pretty much no one goes but me. I certainly wouldn't use it as decoration."

Ack! Of course all my games are displayed in my office too! I do display my DVD movies in a living room bookshelf, but not prominently (bottom shelf) and only because there is nowhere else to put them. The Entertainment Center drawers are full of Sesame Street videos, which I'm sure Maggie would love to display.

"I remember the anti-theft arguments, and always wondered how valid they were considering the relatively painless switch to the current method."

Not sure about marketing, but the owner of the CD speciality store I worked at believed it. Even though we'd often find boxes slashed open with the Case removed.

Maybe it is marketing (re: compu games) if fact, that probably explains why PC games typically outsell PS and PS2 games so convincingly.

-Andrew

"Maybe it is marketing (re: compu games) if fact, that probably explains why PC games typically outsell PS and PS2 games so convincingly."

I assume you're being sarcastic. You're not implying that the box hinders sales, though, are you? What exactly are you implying? That all marketing efforts aimed at selling computer games are feeble because they don't sell as well as console titles?

I'm only impling that I think the boxes don't acutally help PC game sales (as "marketing guy" above noted). Those massive boxes might actually be hurting PC gaming by crowding the shelfs like that.

But yea, I was being sarcastic there.
From a marketing point of view I think it's time for the DVD case is all. It looks fresh, exciting and cutting edge (like DVD's and Sony Games). Plus, you really can get more on a shelf, which could help variety some. Maybe even leading to bigger oders all around.

Just specualting here.

-Andrew

---

Quote:

Maybe even leading to bigger oders all around.

---

WIth all of the games we have around the house, the last thing in the world I want is a shift to a larger storage box (larger than a jewel box.) The great thing about jewel boxes is that you there are so many choices in CD storage. I've got a couple of large CD towers in the office that store my older games, and then a couple or desktop CD racks for games that I'm actively playing. Can't do that with DVD cases.

"I just can't take that criticism from you Bruce... especially if you still have that mounted SMAC tech poster on your wall. ;>"

What's it mounted on? Is it framed? Or just matted? I don't know about tacky, but it does scream geeky. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

"Ack! Of course all my games are displayed in my office too! I do display my DVD movies in a living room bookshelf, but not ..."

Andrew: I can't believe you're defending yourself! Who cares if Bruce thinks it's tacky?

Needless to say, this doesn't seem to be happening yet, but a standardized PC game box was decided upon earlier this year. If you look, you'll find Everquest in this particular box size at your local retailer. I don't know if everyone is ignoring the recommendation (which reads like a mandate) or what... but here's a link to an article that explains what PC software boxes should be changing to.

The GT Box

I remembered reading this back in March and managed to dig up the link via Google. The key factor is that retailers want a change and standardization. This particular box size makes sense to accommodate manuals and a normal jewelcase or even a DVD case. If the retailers get mad enough (and they just might since PS2, Xbox and Gamecube are going to demand more and more space and make them more money), this box will be adopted faster. Either that or you'll see less PC games on the shelves. Expect Electronics Boutique and Babbages, Etc. to start reclaiming PC games space soon for Xbox and Gamecube displays. If PC games makers are smart, they'll hurry and adopt this standard.

--Dave

"I guess I never understood the whole idea of displaying tapes, CDs, movies, whatever. Again, it just seems tacky."

It's not like people (well, me, at least) display them as trophies for all the world to see. But I do like to keep my CDs (or movies, or whatever) someplace in the open where I can see them all at once. A bookcase (or any of the common display units sold for such items) works pretty well for that.

> If you give players the ability to open every door and drawer, you can really pad out a game.

That's a rather expensive way to pad out a game, in terms of development time (coding effort, art, level design). I don't know that any developer does that to pad out the game, I think they consider it part of the "immersiveness" or whatever. It would be far easier to have very little world interaction and just have more random rooms that look the same with generic bad guys in them. Like Oni.

>Whatever resources Remedy put into doing things like getting the beds to vibrate could have been better used making and placing more objects that shatter, blow up, or tip over when hit with bullets.

I'll agree that I want more stuff to shoot up. There's plenty, but it's cool and I want mroe. =) ut it would start to ruin the immersiveness for me if I got a million different interactions with my bullets, but obviously "usable" objects in the environment did nothing. Every cabinet locked, every TV broken, ever vibrating bed out of order. It's maybe "less important" but it's sort of two sides to the same coin - the goal in immersion, and that means that objects have expected and consistant reactions. For things to react to my bullets and not my hands would seem odd.

>However, it's all rather repetative. Enter room. Dive, Shoot. Dive, shoot. Dive, shoot.

Maybe, but compare that to most other 3D action shooters. Enter room. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot. Enter room. Shoot. They're all repetitive by nature, but at least you have cool movement options in Payne.

Regarding the writing/acting: it seems to be one of those things that you either REALLY hate or isn't so bad at all. Looking at message boards from lesser, common gamers (read: not QT3 readers), nobody seems to be complaining. I don't think the average couch potato will care any more than they appreciate the really good writing/acting in a game like NOLF. SIGH...

Either way, I think it's fairly safe to say that it's not something that should keep you from playing the game. The meat of the game is the action, and that's good enough to overcome lots of faults.

Standard game boxes:

That IDSA and IEMA standard size they came up with is exactly DVD-box size, only up to 1" thick (they already make DVD boxes this big, like a couple of the Criterion movies). The one difference is that they're going to allow a gate-fold flap on the cover (there's your screenshot area).

But it's all just a recommendation. Nobody's going to conform unless the retails stop carrying the big boxes (oh please, Wal-Mart, put your foot down on this!).

I personally don't buy the "we need large boxes for marketing" crap. Console games have the small packaging and outsell PC games. Now maybe that's not a direct comparison, but if you give everyone the same deadline to change over their PC boxes, then there's just a short transition time and then you're all on equal ground.

"Console games have the small packaging and outsell PC games."

A lot of console games are very easy to understand, though, and have bigger marketing budgets. Sports titles, racing titles, beat 'em ups, Mario-style games, etc. You know what they are at first glance or have seen the ads, etc.

What's System Shock 2? What's Thief? What's Homeworld Cataclysm? What's Ground Control? In a lot of cases you have to look at the box to figure out what the game's all about.

I hope they go to smaller packaging too, but I do think that the larger boxes help with point-of-sale marketing.

I dunno, those "Classic Edition" boxes are pretty sparse on ad content. Seems like the size is the only thing going for them, and with retail shelf space at a premium, you think they'd try and ditch the packaging. Maybe I'm just spoiled by following the industry, but I've never had to rely on box information to make a purchase decision.

Tim, as for snow in Seattle, there are enough hills to make 2 inches treacherous. I will admit that they're a bunch of wusses though. 1/2 an inch of snow used to result in school districts calling a snow day.

- Alan

Mark said: "A lot of console games are very easy to understand, though"

Then added: "What's System Shock 2? What's Thief? What's Homeworld Cataclysm? What's Ground Control?"

Good god! What's a Shenmue? A Syphon Filter, a Parasite Eve? A Zone of the Enders? A Hot Potato? A CHU CHU Freaking ROCKET?... etc.,

By your logic Mark, aside from sports titles, it's console games that are more need of the bigger packaging.

"I hope they go to smaller packaging too, but I do think that the larger boxes help with point-of-sale marketing."

I don't think so. But I do think Marketing people and maybe software store buyers think so. Those are the people who are generally resistent to change.

-Andrew

I really think the other foot's going to fall on PC games shelf space this Christmas. Go to Wal-Mart now and you'll see they have nowhere to go with Xbox and Gamecube in addition to Playstation, Playstation 2, GameBoy, GameBoy Advance and N64 (figuring that Dreamcast will be in the cases on the bottom unviewable by then). Something's going to have to give. DVD's aren't going to move. Video tape, music, high markup stuff like CD storage...these things aren't moving.

If push comes to shove, PC games are going to get cut back. Then they're going to have to shrink the boxes, pay more for shelf space or maybe lose their contract to sell to them entirely. Throw Best Buy, EB and Babbages, ETc. into the mix. Having worked for EB for two years, I guarantee they have a new floor plan ready to go and it likely has a reduction of shelf space for PC games in there. Same is probably true at Babbages, Etc. Best Buy is more tricky because of their racking of console games. They don't use the same type of rack, so they'd have to make other changes to eliminate PC game racks. But you know, they cut their rack space down in the store near me last year. I wouldn't be surprised to see them do that again.

The PC games industry would also benefit TREMENDOUSLY by "branding" all their boxes with a PC CD-ROM logo of some kind that is uniform across all packaging. Something like console games which all have some sort of header for their console branding. But you see, this requires publishers who compete with each other to work together. With no console maker to unite them, this may take years to be resolved.

Jason's comment is right on. Pray that Wal-Mart tells them all to get their act together.

--Dave

The other "foot"?!?!?!?!

heh... yeah, what of it? :)

I guess I need a research assistant to check my cliches before I use them. ;)

--Dave

And while we're on the subject, what in the HELL is Samba de Amigo?

I'll tell you what it is: it's dancing with the monkey. But a bigger box (with a foil cover and maybe some blinking lights) might convey that more effectively. =)

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Quote:

And while we're on the subject, what in the HELL is Samba de Amigo?

---

"By your logic Mark, aside from sports titles, it's console games that are more need of the bigger packaging."

Aside from sports, racing, beat 'em ups, and traditional platform style consoles, and console RPGs maybe -- you left out quite a few there. Sure, there are a lot of oddball console titles. Who does know what Seaman is? Did it sell as well as Tekken 4? Unholy Wars is a nice console title. What the hell kind of game is it, though? Didn't sell apparently.

I got a copy of Max Payne today. The action's quite good so far, but the writing is el stinko. It's comically bad. In fact, I'm sure that the game would be better with no narration and no graphic novel interludes. That's how bad it is. It drags down the game.

So far the behind the shoulder action is easy enough to control, though the camera swings a bit wildly when you have to pan around quickly. I still like first-person better. I wonder how the bullet time stuff would work in first person? I don't care that it wouldn't look as neat because I've already gotten used to seeing Max dive and roll in slow motion and it doesn't really seem all that interesting anymore. And frankly, seeing his back all the time isn't exciting either. I could do without that as well.

Quite frankly Max Payne would blow in 1rst person, IMO. In first person your perspective would be all screwed, you couldn't see all of the enemies and their positions as easily. Plus you couldn't do those dive, kill one guy, flip 180 degrees and finish his friend kind of moves in first person, at least not easily.

-- Xaroc

>A lot of console games are very easy to understand, though, and have bigger marketing budgets.

Mark's argument seems to be that, by and large, console games are more accessible and have more advertising, and that's why they sell more. Which seems to ME to be an argument that agrees with my assessment (read: guess) that the larger boxes don't do squat for game sales.

>frankly, seeing his back all the time isn't exciting either.

Personally, I find it a little more interesting to watch Max move around the environment than to stare down the barrel of a gun the entire game - even for relatively simple interactions like jumping up on objects or opening medicine cabinets. It also afford the opportunity for Max to look at interesting objects, ala Lucas adventure games.

Gamespot's Max Payne review:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/reviews/0,10867,2799311,00.html

PC.IGN's review:
http://pc.ign.com/reviews/11645.html

Both seem pretty happy with the writing, but I agree with the way Gamespot puts it.

I've finished the game now, and I quite enjoyed it overall. I think going less overboard with the "Sam Spade detective novel set in modern day" writing would have helped, but I also think it's not nearly bad enough to keep me from recommending it. There are lots of great "moments" in it, which is rapidly becoming the mark of a top action game to me.

I'm surprised at how enjoyable the New York Minute mode is. It takes the downside of replaying a linear game with story - the fact that you know all the levels - and it makes it a NECESSITY. Replaying at such a forced frantic pace, skipping entire parts of levels and making snap decisions about whether I should go in there for the health and ammo or keep moving, is more fun than I thought it would be. I don't know if I'll finish the game in NYM, but I'll certainly get another couple hours out of it.

"Mark's argument seems to be that, by and large, console games are more accessible and have more advertising, and that's why they sell more. Which seems to ME to be an argument that agrees with my assessment (read: guess) that the larger boxes don't do squat for game sales."

What does the size of the game box have to do with advertising budgets and accessibility?

You seem to be saying that since computer games sell fewer copies than console titles, the bigger box is meaningless as a marketing tool. Maybe the computer games would sell even fewer titles than they do now if they were packaged in smaller boxes, though?

For point-of-sale purposes, I don't see how you can say that a bigger box is less effective than a smaller package. Bigger = more noticeable. Bigger = better able to convey product information.

How the retail market reacts to larger packaging and the effect that has on shelf space for PC titles is another question, but on a game-by-game basis for point-of-sale once you've made it to the shelves, bigger packaging almost certainly is a more effective marketing vehicle.

"Personally, I find it a little more interesting to watch Max move around the environment than to stare down the barrel of a gun the entire game - even for relatively simple interactions like jumping up on objects or opening medicine cabinets. It also afford the opportunity for Max to look at interesting objects, ala Lucas adventure games."
The barrel's less intrusive, and looking at the main character's back all the time just isn't that interesting. If you run him into a wall he jogs in place, etc. It would probably help if they had programmed in some variation in the way he moved, given us the ability to crawl, walk while crouched, creep along a wall with our back to it, limp when wounded, etc. It's not like development was rushed for this game and it's not like there's a lot of content. More variety would add more visual interest to watching Max.

I also feel more immersed in first-person. Then the bad guys are shooting at *me*. In Max they're shooting at my guy. I don't really care about Max because he's such a moron with the dialog. I find myself wanting to complete a level just to complete it, not because I'm interested in the story.

I like the action, but I guess I'm just not a fan of third-person. I've done the bullet time thing dozens of times now and it's just another move at this point, like circle-strafing. I've already experienced slow-motion play with UT. Also, and maybe this is because I'm not good at the game, I spend my time in bullet time looking at what I'm trying to shoot instead of watching Max dive and roll.

One of the challenges with an action game that tries to sell itself as being cinematic is that the action needs to look different all the time, and I don't mean that the surroundings need to change. I mean the action itself, what the characters do, needs to change all the time. Otherwise the shootouts all look the same. It would be like a movie where each gunfight looked like the last one.

I think I'd be more impressed if the bad guys had some moves of their own. I'd like to see them dive and roll, etc. Maybe they will later in the game?

"What does the size of the game box have to do with advertising budgets and accessibility?"

Actually Mark, that's what we've been asking you. I think we may've misunderstood your original post on that.

"Bigger = more noticeable."

Not necessarily, especially when surrounded by boxes of equal size.

"Bigger = better able to convey product information"

Good point.

But:
Bigger = Fewer copies in stock

Bigger = (According to Best Buy) Less variety of titles they carry

Bigger = less shelf space (see above - + shelf space is costly)

Bigger = Higher shipping costs

Bigger = More waste

I'm not convinced PC sales would be affected in the least if the box size went down. I concur it would rise if advertising grew, however, that's why I think devs ought to go the cheaper packaging route. Plus, DVD cases look and feel classes.

My wife commented on the Max Payne DVD case saying "Why the hell does it come in that stupid big box?"

Ah, out of the mouths of "people who aren't connected to the industry." (Who also happen to be babes.)

-Andrew

"Bigger = Fewer copies in stock

Bigger = (According to Best Buy) Less variety of titles they carry

Bigger = less shelf space (see above - + shelf space is costly)

Bigger = Higher shipping costs

Bigger = More waste"

That's fine, but we're arguing two different points here. I'm simply saying that once you get the product to retail, the bigger box is more effective. Getting it to retail and getting the retailer to restock are different issues.

"I'm not convinced PC sales would be affected in the least if the box size went down. I concur it would rise if advertising grew, however, that's why I think devs ought to go the cheaper packaging route. Plus, DVD cases look and feel classes."

If you really want to go cheap, you go jewelbox like the PSX games. Don't tell me that the bigger DVD cases would be more effective point-of-sale marketing devices. I'll have to hit you.

"Don't tell me that the bigger DVD cases would be more effective point-of-sale marketing devices."

But I am telling you that. Maybe this is a generational thing... but DVD cases "look" better than shrinkwrapped CD cases. Plus, DVDs still have a certain mystique to consumers that CDs lack these days. Besides, considering your "bigger box = better marketing" assumption, DVDs, being about 3" in square inches larger, would therefore be "better".

"I'll have to hit you."

Cringe! (cowers in pain-anticipation*)

-Andrew

*With apologies to Erik for stealing his, imo, best line ever.

"But I am telling you that. Maybe this is a generational thing... but DVD cases "look" better than shrinkwrapped CD cases. Plus, DVDs still have a certain mystique to consumers that CDs lack these days. Besides, considering your "bigger box = better marketing" assumption, DVDs, being about 3" in square inches larger, would therefore be "better"."

Yes, but if you buy into the idea that a bigger box is a better marketing tool, how can you then claim that DVD cases are better marketing tools than the current PC boxes?

You can't say that smaller is better for marketing and then turn around and say that bigger is better for marketing. What's up with that?

It doesn't matter anyway. DVD cases probably won't be adopted unless retailers demand them. No PC game company is going to want their DVD-sized box sitting on the shelf competing with the current size game boxes. There's going to have to be pressure from somewhere else to get PC game publishers to go to smaller packaging.

Here's one for ERIK, our resident Viking fugitive...

I stole this post off the Somethingawful forums... made me think of him.

---------------------
I thought the massive amounts of Norse mythology references were over-the-top though. Like they are completely bashing you over the head with them.

Here is a spoiler-riffic list of references I can pull off just from the top of my head:

The drug hitting the streets is called "Valkyr"

There is a goth nightclub called the "Ragna Rock"

In that nightclub, there is a stage set up with "Choosers of the Slain" scrawled on the wall behind it (the name of the band, I assume).

The first "boss" is named Lupino. Which is very close to lupine, which means "wolf". He then (during his crazy ranting) calls himself Fenrir.

References are made linking the current setting to Ragnarok... with the huge snowstorm, and crime running rampant.

There is a hint (and later on proof) of an Army project called "Valhalla", which is later linked to Valkyr. In this link, the drug Valkyr is revealed to do many of the same things that Valkyries did (except for the afterlife part).

The evil person at the end of the game is the head of the Aesir corporation. Aesir = the primary race of gods who lived in Asgard (Odin, Thor, Loki, etc). And the slogan of the Aesir Corporation is "A Bit Closer to Heaven."

The "behind the scenes Illuminati-like guy" helping you out is named Alfred Woden. Woden = Odin, and he even has an eye-patch (Odin had one eye).

"Yes, but if you buy into the idea that a bigger box is a better marketing tool, how can you then claim that DVD cases are better marketing tools than the current PC boxes?"

As I said before, less space taken up = more room for titles.

"You can't say that smaller is better for marketing and then turn around and say that bigger is better for marketing. What's up with that?"

I never said smaller was better for marketing. I said smaller was better for retail (and better for costs) and then I said DVD cases were better than CD cases.

Heh, this all started when you said people needed to read the back of a freaking box to understand what Ground Control was all about....

-Andrew

I just finished Max Payne. Took me roughly 12-15 hours depending on how much time I count for replaying fights for fun as opposed to "they just kicked my ass and I have to reload". I tried out the New York minute mode and it is a lot of fun. You almost have to try things you normally wouldn't to get through the levels.

Overall I think Max Payne was a top notch game. I would probably rate it 3.5 out of 4 stars. I would knock it for the hard to hear voices (seems like they made sound fall off too much too quickly) and the voice acting overall wasn't great. The story and lines didn't bother me nearly as much as some people and the length was just fine to me.

On the plus side the graphics, textures, levels, control, and more "Damn that was cool!" moments, using the bullet time feature, than I can remember in any game maybe ever. I felt like I was in an action movie during every fight. Also the New York minute mode is adding replayability and I can't wait to see what mod makers do with this once they get their hands on it.

-- Xaroc

P.S. This has to be the title you pull out when you want to impress people with something cool.

Short review of Max:

"John Woo Be Proud"

Hrm... I wonder how long it';; be before we see a "hard boiled" conversion?

>I'm simply saying that once you get the product to retail, the bigger box is more effective.

Only if it's bigger than the box next to it. If ALL the boxes are smaller, I think that's more effective. I don't think the difference in size between a current PC game box and a DVD box with gate-fold cover is enough that people would all of a sudden miss something they would have otherwise noticed.

But a smaller box (or rather, "all boxes smaller") would have marketing benefits: keeping your game on the "hot new releases" shelf longer and keeping a wider variety of games there, keeping your game in retail longer, and a lot of the side-facing boxes now would get to be front-facing.

It's not just about making a bigger impact when someone sees the box, it's about making sure more people see it in the first place by getting it on more shelves, keeping it there longer, and facing the cover out.

Maybe the confusion is over the numbers - Mark might be thinking of "the size of an individual PC game box" and Bub and I are talking "the size of all PC game boxes as a whole."

>Hrm... I wonder how long it'll be before we see a "hard boiled" conversion?

Long after the "Matrix" total conversion. Despite the fact that there's not much gunfighting in The Matrix; it's mostly just that lobby scene.

I rather liked the Norse mythology link in Max Payne. I thought it was one of the more clever parts of the writing, and an example of how the overarching plot is far better than the individual dialogue makes it seem.

>I'd like to see them dive and roll, etc. Maybe they will later in the game?

Yeah, they do that later. And as difficulty gets tougher I think.

>I've already experienced slow-motion play with UT.

Did you play a different UT than I did? I only remember low-gravity.

You can adjust the speed in UT so that it crawls. I remember it as the time as being described as giving the game a "John Woo" feel when you did that. You don't see bullets in the air, though.

There's that Opera FPS mod out now that adds diving and rolling, etc. I haven't tried it, but maybe I will to see how that kind of thing works for a FPS.

I play the Opera a lot and I must say it's pretty cool, and sorta made Max Payne feel a bit less fresh than it might have otherwise felt.

The rolling really doesn't work well in an FPS, but the diving is cool (and it's part of the game; you get points for how "stylish" your kills are, not just for the kill itself).

Still, the "bullet time" effect would have helped a ton, though it's impossible in multiplayer.

"I agree with Jason about the gun battles; They're a lot of fun. And "bullet-time" is a really neat feature that immediately feels right. Just like Tribes made games without jetpacks feel sort of strange, I may never be able to play another shooter without automoatically reaching for the slow-motion dive button."

Did you guys not play Requiem? That's like 1998's Undying-- a superior B-grade FPS game. It had the slow time power before the Matrix was released and the floodgates were opened. It's so cool that you immediately wonder why nobody else copied it until now.

And I would argue that games with Jetpacks pretty much suck ass. Okay, maybe not the entire game, but the jetpack part anyway. Vehicles, yes, jetpacks, hell no. Having a giant whoopee cushion on your back would be more fun. If you're talking about mobility within the environment, we had that with the original Quake CTF grapple. Which is also superior to the jetpack, but then what isn't? If the Halo guys get the jeep physics right (I can always dream, dammit), you will forget all this claptrap about jetpacks. The first company to seamlessly mate Carmageddon and a traditional FPS is going to make a mint. In fact, that's damn close to my dream game.

If you'd like a nice guffaw, check out the multiplayer stats for Tribes 2:

http://www.gamespy.com/stats

Last time I checked, 51,000 half life (do I really need to say it?), and 3,200 tribes 2. Just under UT.

"Here's one for ERIK, our resident Viking fugitive..."

Does this prove Rune is a good game?

Actually, WRT your other discussion on game length-- Rune is one of the few good examples of a game that is too long, and suffers for it. If you chopped Rune in half and removed a lot of the repetition, there's no doubt that it would have gotten better reviews.

I don't have a problem with 10 hour games, as long as it's 10 enjoyable hours.

"Last time I checked, 51,000 half life (do I really need to say it?), and 3,200 tribes 2. Just under UT."

I don't understand Gamespy stats -- do they account for every CS or Tribes 2 game being played over the Internet, or do they just count games being played with their Gamespy stuff?

In other words, is this an accurate tally?

"I don't understand Gamespy stats -- do they account for every CS or Tribes 2 game being played over the Internet, or do they just count games being played with their Gamespy stuff?"

The HL network model is all based on the original Quake or Quake 2 code-- every user-created server automatically heartbeats to a few master servers by default. Gamespy just queries the master servers. So the answer to your question is: yes. 99% of all players are tallied this way.

It's a bit like my proposed micropayment system. Nah, just kidding.

Anyway, my point is that Tribes 2 sucks. It's the Linux of online multiplayer games; both in system requirements and in overall complexity. And like Linux, it's "not fun" for 90% of the potential audience. Too much goddamn work for precious little reward.

What are you all ranting about Tribes 2, Quake 3 and Counteryahoo?!? Its all about Operation Flahspoint! THIS is the game thats going to do what Wumpus says about Counterstrike did for mods etc. It's here now!

Have you played it yet folks? It be best game dis year folks. mebbe best game evar!

Anyway, its got some problems (laggy multi)... but the game is still great. plus the mission editor is real nice. Try it, it makes me glad to be playing pc games... its just so frickin good. when you're in your m1a1 abrams, machine gunning the enemy infantry... and suddenly an AT rocket hits you... or when you land into enemy territory with your black ops squad to destroy some enemy shilka's in darkness, you know you're in gaming heaven with OFP.

sorry to insert another OFP plug...

etc

>>>>>"I don't understand Gamespy stats -- do they account for every CS or Tribes 2 game being played over the Internet, or do they just count games being played with their Gamespy stuff?"

The HL network model is all based on the original Quake or Quake 2 code-- every user-created server automatically heartbeats to a few master servers by default. Gamespy just queries the master servers. So the answer to your question is: yes. 99% of all players are tallied this way. <<<<<<<

Wumpuss thanks for clarifying your inability to comprehend a question and then answer it. I have wondered the same thing Mark - the closest I can see is if I go on tribes 2 and get a rough count and then go on gamespy and get a rough count - the gamespy number is always smaller. But does the in-game tribes 2 system account for the gamespy servers? I have no idea.

Chet

Why not just ask someone at Gamespy how they get those numbers, Mark?

--Dave

It's not a burning question in my mind. Wumpus raised the question, so I thought perhaps he knew. It's his set of data. I just wanted him to clarify it.

Regardless, if the numbers are an accurate representation, all it means that for multiplayer CS is much more popular than Tribes 2, which in turn is more popular than 98% of the other action games that have been released over the last couple of years. Does that mean jetpacks suck? That if Tribes 2 had no jetpacks it would have 51,000 people playing and CS would have 3000?

I kind of doubt it.

"Did you guys not play Requiem? That's like 1998's Undying-- a superior B-grade FPS game. It had the slow time power before the Matrix was released and the floodgates were opened. It's so cool that you immediately wonder why nobody else copied it until now."

To go even further, System Shock's speed drug did the slow-motion thang years and years ago.

-Thierry

Rant from a genre writer.... : )

I've been playing Max for a couple of days and while the action is well done, I too have an issue with the writing. I'm a big crime novel reader and I've also tried my hand at writing in the genre. Yes, for a game, the plot and dialogue is pretty good. Hell, Half-Life was touted as being stuffed with storytelling genius--which if you think about it from a writer's POV, is really sad and frustrating. Any real writer with an ounce of style could do better while blind drunk. Game stories make any script for made for tv movies look like Citizen Kane. There's the old argument that games are games and not literature... okay, so why bother even trying to add literary touches to a game? Why bother with storylines if the writer can't or won't at least subscribe to the tenents of basic (good) storytelling. To my practiced eye, the story in Max is lazy. It hangs itself on cliches and stereotypes. They aimed for Frank Miller and hit Don Pendleton (sorry to his fans). They needed to read more Elmore Leonard for dialogue. They needed to read more James Ellroy for atmosphere and detail. Lawrence Block for characterization. Hell, read Mickey Spillanne! Jusk fucking read! Then hire someone who writes and reads more than playing games or watching movies.

Man, Max rocks in part, but just think if the story was half as good as the action. But hey, maybe we're getting there... in a couple of years we'll be up to Walker, Texas Ranger standards (sorry dad).

Writer for hire.

Rant from a genre writer.... : )

I've been playing Max for a couple of days and while the action is well done, I too have an issue with the writing. I'm a big crime novel reader and I've also tried my hand at writing in the genre. Yes, for a game, the plot and dialogue is pretty good. Hell, Half-Life was touted as being stuffed with storytelling genius--which if you think about it from a writer's POV, is really sad and frustrating. Any real writer with an ounce of style could do better while blind drunk. Game stories make any script for made for tv movies look like Citizen Kane. There's the old argument that games are games and not literature... okay, so why bother even trying to add literary touches to a game? Why bother with storylines if the writer can't or won't at least subscribe to the tenents of basic (good) storytelling. To my practiced eye, the story in Max is lazy. It hangs itself on cliches and stereotypes. They aimed for Frank Miller and hit Don Pendleton (sorry to his fans). They needed to read more Elmore Leonard and Robert Parker for dialogue. They needed to read more James Ellroy for atmosphere and detail. Lawrence Block for characterization. Hell, read Mickey Spillane! Jusk fucking read! Then hire someone who writes and reads more than playing games or watching movies.

Man, Max rocks in part, but just think if the story was half as good as the action. But hey, maybe we're getting there... in a couple of years we'll be up to Walker, Texas Ranger standards (sorry dad).

Writer for Hire.

Agreed. I'm really baffled as to why it seems so difficult to get good writing in a game. Leonard, Ellroy, Block, Spillane, James Lee Burke, great stuff. Years and years ago, a text adventure game named Oo Topos was released. It was written by Michael Berlyn (sp) if I recall correctly, a real life Sci-Fi writer. I remember sitting up late at night, the amber text from the monitor serving as the sole illumination in the room, sipping Glenfiddich and playing the game. I can still picture the oddly glowing, moving patterns on the wall of the alien hallways, an image that is clearer in my mind than from any graphic adventure (OK, the snake in the Wizard and the Princess is right up there. )

How difficult would it be to hire a good writer, one of the many writers in a genre that is skilled but unpublished (i.e., very affordable?)

OTOH - how much difference would it make in sales? sigh

It would be a little touch, but I think better writing in Max Payne might translate into a few more sales. Word of mouth does move a few copies, and if the story's good enough, that's just one more compelling trait for friends to tout to one another.

Besides, how much more would it have cost to get a good writer?

It would be a little touch, but I think better writing in Max Payne might translate into a few more sales. Word of mouth does move a few copies, and if the story's good enough, that's just one more compelling trait for friends to tout to one another.

Besides, how much more would it have cost to get a good writer?

Here's a tale from a friend of mine who was asked to do some writing for a game. Her script was thrown out because it didn't conform to the CG cutscenes they had already completed. Putting the cart before the horse, if you ask me.

- Alan

Yeah, that is putting the cart first, but if you have the CG cutscenes done....

Didn't they tell her about the cutscenes? Seems like a communication problem there.

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Quote:

Besides, how much more would it have cost to get a good writer?

---

"They needed to read more James Ellroy for atmosphere and detail."

Hot damn, I'm trying to imagine an Ellroy-version of Max Payne. Something along the lines of "Payne was a hider. Payne was a watcher. Payne went native. Payne clipped Lupino. Payne torched. Payne lived in his head."

"Here's a tale from a friend of mine who was asked to do some writing for a game. Her script was thrown out because it didn't conform to the CG cutscenes they had already completed. Putting the cart before the horse, if you ask me."

Warren told me that Rage asked him to script Hostile Waters while they were still creating the engine, so he had full reign in controlling all the story elements when it came to cutscenes, hence avoiding the CG-cutscene goof-up above.

I've finally managed to play Hostile Waters itself, after editing Tom Price's review of it. It shows what a difference it makes when using someone who's dayjob is to write all freakin' day. The premise does sound hokey in parts, but as Jeff Green commented, "well, sometimes, the premise for Warren's stories sound kinda dumb, but when you actually look at it, he does a fine job of pulling it off."

If anything, you gotta give Warren credit for the fact that instead of a dystopian-future-ruled-by-Corporations setting, and the player being a ragtag-band-of-rebels, he gave us a non-capitalist utopian future where the Corporations are the ragtag band this time.

He told me that being an external writer for a game is harder than other fiction work, because he didn't have the complete and utter control of story elements as he does in fiction. He had to work around telling the story in-between gameplay, or as he put it, "I tell you all sorts of useful things, and then you immediately go blow shit up to hear more."

"Besides, how much more would it have cost to get a good writer?"

I never asked him for a direct figure, but I do know that he was promised a sizable fee from another developer later on, and got burned by said developer sometime afterwards.

-Thierry

"I dunno, Mark? What would you charge?"

Right now? I'd probably work for a corned beef on rye.

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Quote:

Didn't they tell her about the cutscenes? Seems like a communication problem there.

---

Any game developers want a realtively cheap (money-wise not talent) writer who knows a thing or two about writing? I mean, come on, I couldn't be any worse than the producer's second cousin's girlfriend's brother ("Hey, I've watched every episode of Wiseguy a dozen times--I can write that stuff") who's just happy to be involved.

Bill

I'm pretty close to the end of the game, having just reached Aesir HQ. I agree with the usual comments about bad writing and great action, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the sniper rifle. Best. Sniper rifle. Ever.

Switch into bullet time and bang off a few consecutive headshots. They even used a correct bullet shape, which pleases me greatly.

I would have liked the sniper rifle a lot more either without the bullet view (I wanted to disable it, as it grew distracting against multiple enemies) -OR- if you could do the bullet view in bullet time!

Maybe that'd be just too cruel.
Also, anyone else wish there was a movie recorder/replay angle feature for some of the more hairy bullet time melees?

-Andrew (now addicted to the old ultra-violence)

I've noticed that bullet time is still going for the rest of the world in the sniper bullet view, but it might be fun to have the trip take a little longer. I like a lot of toggles, and Max Payne needs a couple more. The bullet ride and the in-engine cinematics immediately come to mind.

A replay would be nice. It is probably one of those things that sounds easy, but requires a ton of work to include. The pause feature is very good, though. Reassign the key to one easily in reach, and try it out during big firefights.

I tried out the unlimited bullet time mod, too. I can't decide how it affects the game. My favorite part is bullet time, and I think the game is just an average (but pretty) shooter without it. I played a whole level with almost all the fights in bullet time, and still didn't tire of it. However, it probably made the fighting too easy, even against tough opponents. I can't say it was a bad thing.

Finally, I am going to subtract one grog point because the sniper bullet doesn't show any rifling marks.

Hey, how about a Wild Bunch mod with the bullet time? John Woo has nothing on Peckinpah.

I enjoyed Max Payne quite a bit at times, but there's very little replay value. All the harder levels do is give the enemies more health, reduce Max's health, and make aiming harder. It would have been much more interesting if the difficulty was ratcheted up by adding more goons to kill.

I also think team-based multiplayer would have added a lot. I know the bullet time stuff couldn't be used, but the more expansive camera perspective would be a nice change of pace for multiplayer shooters.

Max Payne is, without a doubt, is the most over-rated game of the year. The writing--from the dialog to the plot to the pacing--was complete crap and the gameplay got really tedious after awhile. Basically, it's enter room, shoot bad people, leave room, enter new room, shoot bad people.

The two "dream" sequences were cool, but I got the feeling they were added to break-up the style of gameplay, and not because they added anything to the game's story.

As for bullet-time, it's a cool feature, but even that got old after awhile. It was like watching a dog do the same trick again and again and again.

--Billy

I agree that the gameplay got a bit tedious, but for me that mostly happened in Part 1. I almost quit but got to Part 2 and enjoyed that quite a bit more. It was also shorter. Part 3 was even better than Part 2.

What I didn't like were the dream sequences and the restaurant scene. And the writing, of course.

I've also found that bullet time has spoiled me a bit. Playing the Red Faction demo made me wish I had it in that game.

I find Max Payne and Red Faction to be similar in that they both are one-trick ponies. For me, bullet time was strong enough to carry the game, and make me wish there were more levels. After playing through the Red Faction demo, I did not find that the deformable geometry had any great effect on gameplay, and so I was left with a standard shooter. In fact, the damage modeling was weak throughout. Anytime I destroyed something (literally including a light fixture and an armored vehicle), the destroyed object just vanished in a puff of smoke. This very quickly reduced my immersion, especially compared to the contextual bullet impact effects in Max Payne.

Did the explosives do anything practical beyond letting you make more entrances between rooms in the mines? The one time in the demo that I wanted to blow a hole through something was near the end, where you run into the small fortress with the force beams across its main gate. I pulled out my rocket launcher and prepared to blast my way through. Sadly, the geometry was locked there, and so my rockets just left scorch marks & I had to use the unlocked door instead. How disappointing. Based on my floating window observation above, I doubt the place would have collapsed even if I had been able to knock holes in the foundation.

"Max Payne is, without a doubt, is the most over-rated game of the year."

This from the guy who gave Rune a 9 of 10.

H. West

"Max Payne is, without a doubt, is the most over-rated game of the year."

I think that's a serious overstatment in a year that includes Black & White, Billy. I mean, Max Payne delivers exactly what it promises. I think it's getting good ratings because of that.

Personally... I wish the AI, story, pacing, and most of all, the writing, were much, much better. But it's the most significant shuffle forward for the action genre since, well in my opinion, since Oni.

Now, if only I could get bullet-time in a Football sim....
-Andrew

Maybe it's not the most over hyped game this year, but why would it be a "significant" move forward? I just recently got around to playing NOLF. As it happens, I took a little break from NOLF to knock out Max Payne. For me, NOLF is a much better game.

Max Payne's bullet-time is its best feature. Although I liked rolling for a kill, I'm not sure I'm happy with 3rd person view. If the writing or voice acting were better, it would have gone a long way for making MP a significant move forward. Without those, what's the big deal?

>I think that's a serious overstatment in a year that includes Black & White, Billy. I mean, Max Payne delivers exactly what it promises. I think it's getting good ratings because of that.

I don't think it delivers on its promises at all. It utterly fails to deliver on the promises of a "relentless story-driven game" and "new breed" of action game. The story is one cliche after another and the action is very, very standard. There were some cool segments, but there were also times I found myself quite bored with the whole affair.

On the plus side, Max Payne did make me realize how badly I want a first-person action game based on the Punisher.

--Billy

"Did the explosives do anything practical beyond letting you make more entrances between rooms in the mines?"

Not that I could see. You might as well have locked doors and keys.

If the weapon effects were better I'd probably be a bit more jazzed about the game. The whole thing was just a bit dull, though. You're right about Max Payne too. The way stuff shatters and breaks in that game is much more engaging than just blowing a hole in something in Red Faction.

Did anyone play the PS2 version? I'm just curious to know how much of the game takes place in the mines. I'd like to do a lot of stuff on the martian surface or in orbiting satellites. I'd like to hop around on the outside of a ship in space and fight, etc.

Tim, I said it was the most significant "shuffle" forward.

Not a move. I liked how the bullet time is almost a strategic option. Maybe it's just me, but I only used it when the going got rough. I also used it to do some cool things, like land on the bed, jump over the banister in bullet-time, etc., (which is why I wanted a replay viewer). As Steve Bauman mentioned the parking and so's the way they used elevators towards the end. Even the dream-sequences, which I agree with Asher are dull, are at least different. One in particular I thought was just brilliant (it'd be a spoiler to mention it).

I liked NOLF too. But I hated that script almost as much as Max Payne (those inter-freaking-minable cutscenes --- not the in-game script, which was at times hilarious (but so was Max Payne's)).

-Andrew

Billy, with all due respect... how many games actually do live up to their PR box comments?
Though, you are right to correct me. I meant "promise" as in "A third person action game with bullet-time and photorealistic, yet scrunchy-faced, characters". Which was vague of me.

Also, and I know this isn't your doing, but don't forget that Max Payne has the following quote on the cover:

"Defiantly original. Soaked in style. FIENDISHLY WELL-WRITTEN (!!!!), and sporting one sequence of jaw-dropping action after another, Max Payne will be the most talked about action game since Half-Life... the actual gameplay is flat-out brilliant..."

-PCGamer
(exclamation points mine)

You're right, it totally doesn't live up to it's promise, does it? ;>

Wait...
"Limited Edition Mousepad Included!"

Ok, maybe it does, at least, partially live up to it's promise.

NOTE: I've never been box-preview quoted before. As you can see above it's a little dangerous. I feel sorry for whomever wrote that preview. Except for "fiendishly well-written", which is not only wrong, it's a stupid thing to write. It implies the game dialogue writer is the devil. Which would make him a Finnish devil.

-Andrew

That quote from Gamer is off-the-mark, but there are several other quotes on the box that are also off-the-mark. (Including Gamepower's, which also makes mention of the "impressive" back-story.)

And you're right, the PR flak always takes liberties with what the game will actually deliver. That said, those "promises" are what the consumer sees and expects when they buy a game, and in this case those "promises" aren't delivered.

Of course, this also comes back to the whole issue of the gaming press and how their previews are used in relation to game advertising, but that's a whole other can of worms.

--Billy

I agree Billy,
And you're right. The game is a little too banal and short of it's potential for some of the press it's getting (and most of those box quotes). But the game does deliver with the "bullet-time" in my opinion. Something I had pegged beforehand as a silly visual gimmick. In that way, it's a step - or shuffle - forward for action gaming. I'm a little nervous now that everyone says they're going to implement it in their games though.

Damn feature creep.
-Andrew

PS: I haven't been box quoted, but I have been website quoted and each time the PR rep asked me (yeah me, why not my editor?) for permission. I just think the PCGamer Max Payne quote is just a lesson in why you should use more restraint in previews. I remember when I worked for you Billy, you always prefered statements that ...um... hyperbolically speculative, be developer quotes instead. That rubbed off on me.

"Of course, this also comes back to the whole issue of the gaming press and how their previews are used in relation to game advertising, but that's a whole other can of worms."

Yep. No one forces the press to devote as much space to previews as they do.

These companies spend a lot of money developing these games. It's a given they'll do whatever they can to promote them.

"most significant "shuffle" forward. Not a move."

LOL. OK, Andrew!

Not even going to ask about the difference between significant shuffles, significant moves, or significant others.

I kept forgetting to use bullet-time, myself. I find I'm not very good at MP. After a dozen or so tries, it would occur to me to try bullet-time. Occasionally it actually did give me the edge. More often I would get all excited when the shit went down and end up hitting the wrong key combination and Max would launch straight up into the air, then go into slow motion and gently float to the ground as the bad guys shot him full of holes. I suck.

I didn't care for all of the writing in NOLF, either. It was, however, brilliant compared to MP. Besides, you could spacebar the cutscenes away in NOLF, not so in MP.

"not the in-game script, which was at times hilarious (but so was Max Payne's))."

The huge difference being that in NOLF you were supposed to laugh. "You look like you need a monkey." In MP, it's a funny because it just sucks so bad. "Noir City." Night and day.

Heh. Noir City may have been the single worst writing moment in the game.

Some played with the voiceover narration turned off, which makes the writing a bit more tolerable.

I'm not sure what the difference between a shuffle and a step forward is either, Tim. I think we'll have to label that one a Bubism.

Bub,

I thought NOLF's script was excellent. Any reasons in particular why you didn't like it ?

Cheers,
Sean.

>Yep. No one forces the press to devote as much space to previews as they do.

Well, no one except the readers. Previews (with few exceptions) garner much more reader attention than reviews, which is why magazine covers are almost always dedicated to the latest and greatest preview(s). At Gamecenter our previews nearly always outperformed our reviews.

A large problem is that game companies will often take published previews and twist words around without asking for permission. I ran into this problem more than a few times at Gamecenter. We'd preview a game, make a couple semi-positive statements about it, and then I'd see an ad that quoted us as saying GameX was going to revolutionize the world. I'd always contact the publisher and request an immediate stop to the ad, but by that point it was usually too late.

--Billy

"I thought NOLF's script was excellent. Any reasons in particular why you didn't like it ?"

For the most part, I agree with you Sean. However, there were a few boners, most of which centered around the writers trying to impose heavy handed femanist themes. Bah. It just came off stupid.

"I thought NOLF's script was excellent. Any reasons in particular why you didn't like it?"

The reasons I don't like it? Well, it was overlong and overly wordy, there were just too many words and redundant conversations. Why those cutscenes went on forever with their overly wordy longness... and so on.

Part of the problem, and this is mentioned (lamented and explained) in the Gamasutra Post Mortem, was the really boring camera work used during the cutscenes. I really liked the in-game conversations, but some of those cutscenes were painfully long and drawn out.

Yes, they could be easily skipped, but often they contained something you needed/wanted to hear (or they had the potential too) so you kinda had to sit there (and sit there, and sit there).

Then again, there's a reason why Austin Powers has a character named Basil Exposition...

-Andrew
PS: Did anyone notice all the jokes Monolith made at the expense of the press? That is to say, some of us? I can think of three:

1. "I always love the movies those critics hate. Whadda they know?"

2. That lengthy story behind the Edsel. And how, it was the guard's theory, that it was bad press that killed an otherwise great car.

and the best one, from Wagner the Opera Singer:

3. �Criticism is the refuge of those without the talent and ability to create art themselves!�

-Andrew

"However, there were a few boners, most of which centered around the writers trying to impose heavy handed femanist themes."

Unintentionally(?) hilarious line there Tim....

It wasn't the feminist stuff that bothered me. It was more how they drummed (...and drummed, and drummed... I GET IT!) into you that the prissy boss guy was sexist.

"Yeah? Cate gets results! You stupid Chief!"

-Andrew

"into you that the prissy boss guy was sexist"

Yes! that's where I'm going. And the American was sexist, too. But it was like, clobber me over the head with it.

I've just finished it tonight. I'm thinking you're right about how wordy it is. Lots of great, funny dialog. Great voice acting. But the writer needed a really good editor really bad.

re: heavy handed feminist boners. Yeah, I gotta million of 'em. Wildest stuff comes out when you're not really thinking.

"Yep. No one forces the press to devote as much space to previews as they do."

Unfortunately, this happens because readers want previews. Our surveys show it, magazine sales show it. Who are we to tell them no? I'm convinced that most people base their buying decisions on previews (reviews serve as entertainment more than anything else). So while it's easy to lay the blame at the feet of the press, remember that the press is merely trying to run a business and provide people with a service they want.

That said, there is certainly room for previews to become more responsible, less "anything goes." Particularly when you consider that readers take them seriously, and may buy the game based on what you say in a preview, whether you want them to or not. I think sometimes writers feel that because they are not providing an "official" evaluation, they don't bear as much responsibility for the judgements that they make. I'm not trying to sound holier than thou, here, because I catch myself doing it, too.

That Max Payne box copy did come from Gamer, though, and unless the game and cutscenes were completely rewritten after that copy ran, it's based on pretty much the same game that Billy is now trashing.

Of course Billy didn't write that original copy, and perhaps his views don't even reflect those of the writer who did. But could anyone, seeing the finished product, actually claim that the game is "fiendishly well written?" And if not, then how did it come to pass that someone said that very same thing about the unfinished product? Either they didn't see enough of the story to judge accurately, or they didn't see it at all and based the comment on something the developers told them (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it wasn't merely a case of terrible taste in writing). Either way, they probably should have thought twice before delivering such strong and unqualified praise.

It's not as easy as it sounds. Showing enthusiasm for games and gaming in your writing is a good thing. Readers don't want to hear you whine about how pessimistic and jaded you've become, they want to know what games you are excited about. And if you aren't enthusiastic about games, then why are you writing about them? But you have to keep an eye on enthusiasm, or you may end up seeing your own high praise on the box cover of a game that you don't even like.

Of course, there's also the matter of publishers that alter your copy, or take it out of context, or don't ask your permission before they use it. Or all three. But that's another rant.

I don't know what people expected from Max Payne but I got what I expected. A great looking 3rd person shooter with a killer feature that provided hours of enjoyment. I played it through twice and am waiting on some good mods. And to whoever said they forgot to use bullet-time, I found myself having to actually kill a few guys without bullet-time sometimes to build it back up. I used shoot-dodge almost exclusively hardly ever going into straigh bullet time.

-- Xaroc

I played through it once and then tried New York Minute (too frantic for me) and the next difficulty level (too frustating to have to hit them with more bullets). I'm waiting on some mods too. Until then, it's shelved.

"I don't know what people expected from Max Payne"

I was expecting a good story, with credible acting. I thought the emphasis was going to be on single person gameplay, which to me means a great story that's fun to watch. As wordy as NOLF was at times, it also made me laugh out loud. Granted I wasn't expecting to laugh with MP, but I would have enjoyed being drawn in to the character and story more.

Also, I was expecting better graphics. Was anyone else let down? What was the name of the benchmark that had the Matrix like bullet-time scene? That thing blew me away. The gfx in max payne aren't ugly, but I'm not feeling the same excitement as I was when I saw that benchmark. I thought there was some sort of connection, or was that just unfoudned rumor. At any rate, it raised my expectations but then didn't meet them.

That would be 3DMark2001.

That benchmark actually used the Max Payne engine. The reason you don't see anything that complex in the game is that you would probably have to have a minumum of a GeForce3 and a 1.5 GHz Pentium to run it at any sort of playable framerate. Not exactly a large market to sell to, there.

I actually found the engine rather impressive, particularly the scale of the levels. When you are up in that skyscraper, notice that you can see the street way down below. That's not a skybox--that's geometry. The textures are all pretty high res, and the particle effects were quite impressive. Say what you will about the story (actually, I enjoyed the story, it was only the writing that bothered me), the game looks good.

I thought the engine looked great. The quality and sharpness of the textures was really top notch. The lighting was also particularly good. Oh and the bullet impacts were pure genius. They were different for every surface with effects like drywall powder pouring out of the bullet holes.

As for 3DMark 2001 Ben is right, you can't have that level of detail without a serious rig. Also, the Remedy guys made a point of telling people that the lobby scene was not indicative of what MP was going to look like.

-- Xaroc

"When you are up in that skyscraper, notice that you can see the street way down below. That's not a skybox--that's geometry."

You can also fall all the way down. No canned scream and then fog... In that last level the fall is pretty damn impressive (even through you should avoid doing it).

-Andrew

Finished Max last night... as a whole I enjoyed the experience. The writing didn't get a whole lot better, got really frustrated by the restaurant sequence (where's my damn firesuit!), thought the dream sequences interrupted the flow a bit (from a literary perspective they were an interesting device to beef up the pathos, too bad they didn't work that well--I really wanted to feel for Max, and I know the designers wanted you to feel for Max, but it just wasn't there), marveled at most of the graphical details, couldn't shake the feeling (at times) that I was playing Soldier of Fortune, never got tired of Bullet Time, wondered why Max sometimes looked like a young Mickey Rourke and at other times like a young Art Carney doing a bad Clint Eastwood impression (actually most of the "actors" bothered me), and I thought the ending was a bit abrupt (not to mention I never got the satisfaction one should feel at Ms. Horne's demise--she got off way too easy). Hmmm that WAS a long sentence. LOL. Anyway, it was a grade B flick, worth a matinee, but not nearly as fun or engrossing as NOLF. Sure in hell looked good though.

Yeah, I thought the ending was a bit abrupt too. I was hoping for a little bit more.