Check out http://www.myfreedomforce.com/ .
Here's hoping they overcome the curse on superhero games.

Yeah, it was my favorite game at E3. It's just cool.

When Ben and I spent a day out there checking out their games for a feature a few months back, I was really struck by how much these guys just love classic computer games. I narrowly avoided getting sucked into a very off-topic conversation with one of the Irrational guys when I saw a Star Control 2 box behind his desk.

Anyway, point is, the guys who made Irrational basically love computer games and built a company where they can "make games that we want to play." They way they want to. The subject matter they want to. Blah blah blah.

I know we hear it all the time, but it was very evident in Irrational's case when you're there seeing how they work, what they play, and when you talk about their future plans and past game experiences. And it's almost like one of those Taoist expresions that has two layers of meaning--I'm sure iD Software makes games they want to play in that they want to play heavy-action shooters. But other people are making games they want to play, too. I think Irrational means that they don't just want to play their games, but they want to make the games nobody else is making but should be, because they want to play them. Like The Lost...nobody else is making a game quite like that (I guess Silent Hill 2 is closest). Or System Shock 2--why was nobody making that game? (or a game just like it) They wanted to play System Shock 2! So they made it.

So when I cornered Ken Levine at E3 just to say that the game has REALLY polished up a lot in the few short months since Ben & I saw it, he could only smile and say "It's a game I want to play!" There was something in his tone of voice that implied an added "finally," as if he could see it getting there, but it finally got to that stage of development.

And you know, it's a game you could only do on the PC, where there are enough people my age and older who can appreciate the subject matter. The 21-and-under crowd that makes up the majority of console gamers don't know from Silver Age comics. The comics they grew up with were 80's X-men. To them, the cut-scenes would probably just be bad acting and kooky writing--they don't realize that it PEFECTLY captures the spirit of those old comics.

"To them, the cut-scenes would probably just be bad acting and kooky writing--they don't realize that it PEFECTLY captures the spirit of those old comics."

Yeah, it is perfect. It was really a joy for me to see those cutscenes. I can't wait for this one.

Well irrational games made System Shock 2, my favorite game. PLus based on interviews, they know there silver age comics! And The Lost (depsite being console) might be a game that gets me to buy a PS2, if its done well i suppose.

Btw, if you get reprints of silver age Fantastic Four, Spiderman and Avengers...you'd be surprised how good it is. Stan Lee was funny, and Steve Ditko ( underrated art) and Jack Kirby are still giants in comic book art. Take a look at the art in early FF...its great.

etc

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Freedom Force is THE game for me. I've been waiting for near 15 years to play a game like it. If it fails to deliever as promised, I may very well give up computer gaming.

Rob, from the little bit I saw at E3, it will be a good game. It doesn't really have an X-COMish strategic wrapper, but it really looks like a lot of fun.

I do realize that FF isn't the end all be all game. However if its taken this long to get a game even like it and it ends up buggy with a long list of missing features, I'm not ready to wait another 15 years

Teen Superheroes Attack!

I just read Robert Mayer's feature on CG Online that had the hero bios from Freedom Force. I have been looking forward to this game based on the magazine previews and overall good comments about the game. Somehow the nearly all-teen heroes don't stir much interest in me.

Weren't most of the best comic superheroes more mature (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman)? It is OK to have a few young characters, but most of them? Can someone give me some comfort about this game?

-DavidCPA

-- puts on Vulcan ears to better enter "geek" mode --

SNIFF
Batman, Wonder Woman, and Supes are all Golden Age. Silver Age characters tended to be more teen-ish. Like The Human Torch or Spider-Man.

Ahem. The game played pretty good at E3. Isn't that all that really matters?

-Andrew

"Somehow the nearly all-teen heroes don't stir much interest in me."

I think Irrational wants to do at least two more games, one in a 70's style comic book setting and one in an '80's style. They probably plan on having the heroes age just like the Marvel heroes got a bit older. Didn't Peter Parker start out in high school and eventually graduate from college at some point during the series?

It does comfort me some that the game played good at E3. I was just hoping for more appealing characters. I checked out their website and the 7 foot amazon does look interesting.

Silver Age: Human Torch (Fantastic Four = 25% teenish, 75% adult), Spider-Man (grew up pretty quick in his reporting job), Silver Surfer (who knows, but probably adult), Iron Man

Bronze Age???: Avengers (all adult), X-men (almost all adult), Iron Fist, Power Man, Daredevil, Punisher

Graphic Novel: Batman (senior citizen:-)), Superman (ageless), Spawn

I just think adult comic heroes make better characters. Don't you think even Robin made a better sidekick after he grew up and got a better costume?

I guess discussions don't get much nerdier than this.

-DavidCPA

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Didn't Peter Parker start out in high school and eventually graduate from college at some point during the series?

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I guess discussions don't get much nerdier than this.

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"I would have to nominate this for the "Even Geekier Than the X-Wing Vs. Y-Wing Discussion" Award..."

Yeah, that's why I donned the Vulcan ears before posting.

There's an award? What's the prize? I still think it should go to the endless and endlessly redundant Kohan kerfuffle personally... ah, there are so many choices at this board.

Now, which would win? A Star Destroyer or the Enterprise? Hmmmm....

-Andrew

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Now, which would win? A Star Destroyer or the Enterprise? Hmmmm....

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Girl has to eat David.
Better she took the meaty role rather than the cheesecake, y'know?

-Andrew

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Girl has to eat David.
Better she took the meaty role rather than the cheesecake, y'know?

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Well you do see a lot of "meat" on Baywatch - especially the "twin peaks" variety.

Speaking of comic book geekiness:

Today's PVP

-DavidCPA

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Girl has to eat David.

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"Andrew, as a writer, I would expect you to properly us punctuation, so that we all know that David was not meant to receive the action in that sentence... :-)"

How do you know he wasn't supposed to?
Heh, I'm just generally lazy when message boarding (which I consider a respite from working). Just ask Chris Taylor... er... Sawyer...

What, you want to be my part time copyeditor?

-Andrew

Nah, just kidding. But you knew that.

I don't blame you. I'm lazy, too, but unfortunately, I'm too much of a perfectionist (read: too anal) to let typos and punctuation slide, if I catch them (and I usually do), even on a message board. It's this sick disease.

But, then, I don't write as much as you do, either. Maybe that's the difference.

And, you know, I considered that maybe he WAS supposed to receive that action...I just couldn't keep up with that. ;-)

RE: Comic book geekiness.

Just FYI. There's a special feature on the Unbreakable DVD that's more interesting than the movie. A short documentary about comics includes input from Frank Miller, Scott Mccloud, and Michael Chabon, among others.

If you guys are so unsure of whether this tops the X-Wing vs. Y-Wing discussion, allow me to bestow a trump card upon the thread for massive geekitude:

The JLA can wipe the floor with the Avengers. Take that, True Believer!

Though, the funniest "vs" discussion I've read is "Bugs Bunny versus Dracula".

-Thierry

No way man... the Avengers would mop up. Cap could take the whole JLA by himself!

--Dave

I just watched Unbreakable for the first time tonight, BTW. I loved it. Completely floored me. I never saw the ending coming.

"We live in mediocre times."

--Dave

I also enjoyed Unbreakable. In spite of it's flaws, I loved the ending and the revelation that came with it. Now I'm going to have to rent it again, if aonly to see that extra. Miller, Chabon, and McCloud, that's a good round table for a film like that.

-Andrew

I have to confess I'd really like a supers game and using a tactical-campaign approach seems like the right way to go about it. With all this talk of customization and destructable terrain I'm reminded fondly of Champions (a pencil and paper RPG where the actual battle between the characters could be fun but what was more fun was seeing how far somebody would be knock-backed and how many walls they'd fly through).

I am confused about one thing. I was given to understand that FF had canned missions but in one of the developers reports he talks about the complexity of nonlinear levels. Are we just talking about multi-layered canned missions you can execute in any order or dynamic/random missions within the context of a strategic campaign (like X-Com?).

As for who could kick who's butt, I was always a Nick Fury and SHIELD man. True grit and high tech. So, for me, X-COM is already my favorite 'supers' tactical sim. ;)

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No way man... the Avengers would mop up. Cap could take the whole JLA by himself!

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One thing that struck me about the interviews with the comic folks is that they talk about how hero books were so happy and the heroes weren't grounded in reality. Anyone that's read the Marvel books knows that the Marvel heroes have always been people first and heroes second. They're humans with flaws. But Miller and friends try to make it sound like DC is all there is and the heroes they created are all that exists. It's kind of odd...I got the feeling the piece was edited up pretty good so that any reference to Marvel was left out...it's not a Warner Brothers release so I don't think there's politics there, but who knows? Why don't they have Stan the Man chatting with them?

For example, they talk about hero motivation and how many of the heroes were good because well, that's what you do when you have super powers. But when you look at Spider-Man, The X-Men, heck, even the Fantastic Four...they all struggled with heroism. Spidey even balks at it and loses his Uncle Ben because of it. Something that haunts the character for his entire life and drives his heroism.

I'm not going to get into a Marvel vs. DC battle here...but dammit, these people are supposed to know these things!

--Dave

"As for who could kick who's butt, I was always a Nick Fury and SHIELD man. True grit and high tech. So, for me, X-COM is already my favorite 'supers' tactical sim. ;)"

Yeah, Nick Fury and SHIELD were a lot of fun. That would make for a great game, though I don't think it was ever one of Marvel's popular comics.

Doc Strange could be fun too with all the magic.

Heck, Iron Man with this different suits for different uses could be fun.

I agree Dave. I haven't seen Unbreakable yet, but, if they were talking about comics being so happy, they were reading a different set of comics than I did.

Daredevil, Iron Fist, The Hulk, Wolverine, Storm = All Marvel heroes with "issues"

Sgt. Rock, Batman, heck even Superman = DC comics that covered some dark subjects.

I know there were different versions of comics that did contain "happy" storylines and characters, but I know there were just as many with dark storylines and conflicted characters.

-DavidCPA

PS...Unless there is Kryptonite in the Marvel Universe, Superman is the trump card for the JLA over the Avengers.

I dated a girl once who did a thesis tracking the resurgence of particular comics and the political climate in America. I don't remember the specifics, but she had some idea about how Batman reflected a darker Vietnam era, coked-out 80s dissillusionment, while Superman was an Eisenhower/Reagan era superhero. It seemed goofy to me, since I don't know the first thing about comics, but I remember thinking how cool it was that such a cute redhead could also be such a geek.

Come to think of it, she also had me read some Neil Gaman Sandman thingie-ma-bobs...

-Tom (is Batman the one whe's allergic to Kryptonite?)

"Cap could take the whole JLA by himself!"

Pardon? The geriatric with the shield? Bah! I would have given more credit to Iron Man and Thor, but Cap? CAP?!? Even Aquaman can take Cap down.

"Yeah, Nick Fury and SHIELD were a lot of fun. That would make for a great game, though I don't think it was ever one of Marvel's popular comics."

I only knew about SHIELD as a concept, having never read any of it. That, and artists often cite Steranko's cover/interior art style as one of the lasting influences in the industry. But, one of the best writers in the industry (Garth Ennis, who did Preacher and does Punisher) is doing a Nick Fury miniseries, and Marvel has been rereleasing classic SHIELD storylines in anticipation. He might become popular now.

"PS...Unless there is Kryptonite in the Marvel Universe, Superman is the trump card for the JLA over the Avengers."

I will concede the fact that Superman is also vulnerable to magic, and that Thor and Scarlet Witch could then possibly pose a challenge.

The true trump card is Batman, simply because he's the best goddamn comic book hero, ever.

Thierry

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I will concede the fact that Superman is also vulnerable to magic, and that Thor and Scarlet Witch could then possibly pose a challenge.

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The true trump card is Batman, simply because he's the best goddamn comic book hero, ever.

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"...but she had some idea about how Batman reflected a darker Vietnam era, coked-out 80s dissillusionment, while Superman was an Eisenhower/Reagan era superhero."

Did she at least credit Frank Miller with this?
I mean, she certainly could have reached that conclusion on her own, it was an obvious late 80's trend in comics but it's almost an exact quote from his Dark Knight Returns introduction*.

"Batman represents reality, the now, and all the 70's and 80's psychological bullshit that goes with it... Superman is WWII, patriotism, and innocence. All the things that got us into that South East Asian mess."

-Andrew

*Hard Cover limited edition - geek prize to me... um, it's signed too, but I didn't wait in line for it. It was a thoughtful geek from a pretty blond comic book geek girl.

Going to get out my copy of The Dark Knight Returns and reread it tonight. It's been too long.

-DavidCPA

David...
Did you know he's revisiting it with a sequel due in a couple months?

-Andrew

No, I did not know that. Do you have any links that describe the plot? If Bruce Wayne is in this book, how old will he be?

Is that a game company "couple months" (get out my Magic Eight Ball) or a real 2 months as in Sept/Oct?

-DavidCPA

One aspect of the characters I enjoyed the most, even at the tender age I was reading them, was their complexity. Doc Strange is an excellent example. Nick Fury and his team were another. One that never seems to get any play at all is Shang Chi (sp?) Master of Kung Fu. All of these, as I recall, had fascinating storylines and semi-psychedelic art at times. Also loved Silver Surfer, and The Inhumans back in the day.

Maybe the Freedom Force folks will soak in the ambience of those comics for one of the period sequels. :)

How about Ghost Rider? That poor guy was damned.

A fave DC of mine that didn't last long was Dial H for Hero. That was a cool concept.

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Pardon? The geriatric with the shield? Bah! I would have given more credit to Iron Man and Thor, but Cap? CAP?!? Even Aquaman can take Cap down.

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"I haven't bought a comic in at least five years."

They're too expensive now. It's really hard to shell out $2-3 for something you read in five minutes.

Ghost Rider! Yeah. That's another one. Wasn't there a Brother Voodoo or something? He's another one that was off the wall and up my alley.

I wish I kept up with comics today so I could say with assurance that the early 70's Marvel heroes were the best. :)

Okay, since I rarely get to do this, I'm going to go out of my way to point out "How Cool I Am" and "What Geeks You Guys Are".

When someone mentions Ghost Rider, instead of putting me in mind of a comic book (it's a comic book?), I think of the Henry Rollins song.

I'll be over here in the corner smoking a cigarette and hanging out with chicks while you guys are talking about comic books.

-Tom

Wow. You're so cool, Tom.

Can I come back in my next life as you? ;-)

"No, I did not know that. Do you have any links that describe the plot? If Bruce Wayne is in this book, how old will he be?"

Miller speaks!


Some highlights from the above link:

Dark Knight Strikes Back takes place three years after DKR, and because Bruce is trained, relaxed, confident, and at peace with himself, he will actually look younger.

More politically driven. Batman is the idealistic anarchist. Green Arrow is still the ultra-leftwing radical. Superman is still a tool of The Establishment. The Question's Ayn Randian worldview will be displayed also.

The world is under the effect of "kinder, gentler fascism." Superheroes, for the most part, are gone. Batman will facilitate some sort of rise.

If DKR was a deconstruction, then this is more of a building-up.

"Is that a game company "couple months" (get out my Magic Eight Ball) or a real 2 months as in Sept/Oct?"

Originally scheduled for "2001", it will be November at the earliest. October solicitations have just came out, and it's not mentioned anywhere.

Also, Miller has mentioned that he wanted to do a series about the life of Christ. I dunno offhand how that project is doing.

"Ah... but Captain America is the spirit of red, white and blue! The United States working man's will in indomitable physical form. If he can't out-fight you, he'll out-think you! Good old American know how can take down the JLA any day. He'd especially have no problems with an offworlder like Superman who pretends to the throne of Freedom! ;)"

Funnily enough, in the countless stupid JLA vs. Avenger threads on Usenet which I am mocking now, that's the best pro-Cap argument I've read, =)

"Just busting some stones, Thierry. Aquaman's a real wuss, though. Namor, The Sub-Mariner would have a field day with him."

The same to you. I just never clicked onto the whole Cap groove. That's why I tossed in Aquaman, the most useless member of the JLA (at least The Atom is an honest-to-god scientist/doctor type). Even with a harpoon for an arm and the Atlantean army backing him up, Aquaman is still stupid.

Speaking of Namor, he was recently featured in an extremely good Black Panther (one of the best Marvel titles out there, oddly enough) storyline where Atlantis threatens to go to war with Wakanda, with various alliances and non-aggression pacts that pull Genosha, Latveria, and the US into the mix.

"They're too expensive now. It's really hard to shell out $2-3 for something you read in five minutes."

Best way to read them is to wait for the trade that collects a few issues into a neat volume. A lot of the better stories are now written in defined arcs that make it ideal for re-release in trade paperback form. 20 bucks gets you great storylines like the relaunched Ultimate X-Men or Spider-Man books, or Kevin Smith's run on Daredevil. The best deal, by far, is the American re-released of the entire Lone Wolf & Cub saga (made into what, six or seven movies?), because each book is ten bucks, but you get three hundred pages of good Japanese storytelling per book. And there's 28 books slated (they're up to 10 right now).

"When someone mentions Ghost Rider, instead of putting me in mind of a comic book (it's a comic book?), I think of the Henry Rollins song."

Well, sometime next year, you might also think of a doofy Nick Cage flick where he becomes a motorcycle rider who's head is pepetually on fire.

-Thierry

Henry Rollin's is pretty cool. He could kick Aquaman's butt. Still, if he hears the phase 'Ghost Rider' I'll bet he thinks about the comic that inspired the song. ;)

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The same to you. I just never clicked onto the whole Cap groove.

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"He could kick Aquaman's butt."

Any superhero that has to have his super power narrated isn't much of a superhero.

"Also, Miller has mentioned that he wanted to do a series about the life of Christ. I dunno offhand how that project is doing."

Thierry, did you read 300? That's his account of the 300 Spartans, fully painted and absolutely wonderful. His Christ story would probably look and feel a lot like Scorcese's take (on Kazantzakis' take).

He also wants to do Superman, but they haven't let him thus far. Maybe the new Dark Knight, which is something DC REALLY wants him to do, was part of a deal....

Hmmm...

Anyway, I'm glad he's taking a Sin City break. That comic was starting to provide diminishing returns. Loved the first two, and That Yellow Bastard, but the rest I could take or leave. Better than Ennis (whom I don't like), imo, but
redundant in terms of storytelling.

I also find it hilarious that someone who has spent the past, what, 8 years Tom? Writing about video games in as erudite a manner possible feels cool and disdainful toward fans of "graphical sequential art". ;>

-Andrew

"Now here I am at 29 pining away to get back into reading them."

I don't remember who said that (way too lazy to scroll up a few posts and look) but anyway, I really recommend checking out Marvel's new Ultimate Spiderman series written by Brian Bendis. It's a modernized re-telling of Spiderman. Very cool stuff.

Umm, that was a joke, Bub. I'll leave you a smiley face next time. I actually don't know the first thing about comics.

I asked my brother-in-law, the fellow who designed our Qt3 eyeball, to turn me on to some Frank Miller after the initial reports that he'd be collaborating with Darren Arronofsky on the next Batman (which is sadly a dead project). I read some Sin City and Dark Knight stuff, but what I really liked was the artwork and storyline on something called Elektra the Assassin.

I also tried to read some of the Watchmen stuff, but deconstructing superheroes is pretty gauche these days and I didn't think it held up very well.

Otherwise, I used to read a lot of Richie Rich, Dennis the Menace, and Archie stuff when I was a little kid. When X-Men was being made, I thought it was about the flaming guy and the 'Clobberin' Time' guy. However, I do know that Nightcrawler goes 'bampff' and Wolverine goes 'snikt'.

So there.

(Did I also mention that I hate Star Trek?)

-Tom, non-geek extraordinaire, albeit trying a little too hard

Just out of curiousity, when Tom says he'll be hanging out with "the chicks" does he mean his parents? :)

I think you missed my own smiley face icon there Tom. I knew you were joking, too.

Elektra, eh? The one drawn by Sienkiewicz (if I got that right, bully for me)? That was a good one. Sadly, Sinkevitch (that's how you say it) is only doing covers these days.

Miller did something lower profile that I'd recommend anyone hear read: Daredevil: Born Again.
It was done right before Dark Knight Returns and is just about the best thing he's ever done. Aside from a too pat ending. The graphic novel is rare but still in print I believe.

Tom, tell me you've read Maus.

-Andrew

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Even with a harpoon for an arm and the Atlantean army backing him up, Aquaman is still stupid.

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I honestly don't have any disdain for people who like comics, anime, Star Trek, or When Harry Met Sally. I've tried them all and they're just not for me.

"Tom, tell me you've read Maus."

I've read Maus.

There. Now what is Maus? Wasn't that some sort experimental German tank in WWII? Is it a comic or an author?

-Tom

hanging out with "the chicks"

Sorry Tom you've probably heard all these at one point or another and don't really see the humor.

I actually didn't get for a beat or two, then laughed out loud. Good one Brian

Assuming Tom isn't joking again (no smile icon, I'M LOST!):

Maus is a comic written by Art Speigelman (cartoonist for the New Yorker, among other things). It's his parent's true story of the Holocaust, and it won the Pulitzer Prize. The year after it won the rules were changed to disallow comics... yet, it deserves the award completely.

And if Tom was joking, well, hopefully that might prompt someone else to hunt down a copy. It's collected and for sale at most bookstores.

-Andrew

Oddly enough, I've long since stopped hearing my own name. I use the term 'chicks' all the time and it never occurs to me, 'hey, that's my last name!'.

Of course, other people rarely fail to pick up on it... :)

-Tom

Dave: But Miller and friends try to make it sound like DC is all there is and the heroes they created are all that exists.

Well, I don't know about that, and I think your point is a valid one. But it seemed to me that in the documentary they were focusing on the very early stuff. Personally, I've liked both Marvel and DC books. With little closet space for comics, though, now I only pick up graphic novels on occasion.