I have read many of the reviews and also checked out the German gameplay movies with Molyneaux demonstrating Black & White.

I have to say Black & White looks phenomenal and the gameplay looks very interesting. Add in the unusual online game options and this title is looking definitely like Game Of The Year material.

Let's see if the average Joe Gamer has enough intelligence to recognise a good game when they see one. This is easily a Sims beater.

"Let's see if the average Joe Gamer has enough intelligence to recognise a good game when they see one. This is easily a Sims beater."

Sure, except you haven't actually played it yet. One of the things about Molyneux games is that they often don't have a lot of legs. I thought Dungeon Keeper was fantastic when I first started playing it, but by the time I got to mission 15 or so I was so bored I quit playing.

I like to revisit Dungeon Keeper (2). Not the campaign, and just once in a while, but it keeps me coming back. It's mean, funny, nasty and cute all at the same time. A very keen trick. Of course, it's also an "improved" Molyneux game, made after he left Bullfrog, but still. A game like that needed a solid base, and the original provided it.

DK had so much going for it, all i really wanted out of it was the ability to play one creautre in possession and be able to play in someone elses dungeons...i envisioned DK sorta like an early version of NWN...or at least i thought it would be like that. still though DK was fun, wish they implemented the "play in a friends dungeon" aspect. I need to reinstal DK2 still haven't finsihed the campaign in it...

Im still up in the air with Black and White though i'll prolly get it...but, I've already got Kohan and Fallout Tactics to play with, and already a few DC games, and then Tribes 2... suddenly my wallets getting thin...they do this EVERY year...

oh well.

etc

I've been playing a lot of Fallout Tactics lately and I'm loving it. I was thinking about picking up Kohan and was wondering what your impressions are of it.

Black & White is one of those games that I'd like to spend a week or two with a demo before I decide to invest $50 in it. It looks like an entertaining game, but as Mark pointed out, games like this can lose their appeal rather quickly. If I can spend a week playing a demo and still hurry home from work to boot it up again, I know the full version is a good investment.

I did the same thing with Homeworld, Sacrifice, and Alice (2 of which I purchased, and one which is an interactive jumping simulation that I left on the shelf)

"Sure, except you haven't actually played it yet. One of the things about Molyneux games is that they often don't have a lot of legs. I thought Dungeon Keeper was fantastic when I first started playing it, but by the time I got to mission 15 or so I was so bored I quit playing."

Point taken Mark. But I have to say I have never played a bad Molyneax game. I have in my collection Populous I, II, and III, Magic Carpet I & II, and Dungeon Keeper I & II. I have collectively spent literally hundreds of hours playing these games.

Molyneax's games are the type that can be picked up again and again. It is quite possible that B&W might become repetitive after awhile (like DK 1 & 2) but I keep coming back to them.

At least he makes a fair attempt to be original. That's more than can be said about much of the current crap available out there at the moment.

Oh and I forgot to mention Syndicate, Syndicate Plus, Syndicate Wars, and Powermonger.

"At least he makes a fair attempt to be original. That's more than can be said about much of the current crap available out there at the moment."

Yeah, that is pretty much why I, completely out of character, jumped up and got it today. Even though I know EA is sending me one sometime... I felt like buying this one. Simply because I'm ever so hungry for something different.

So I'll force myself to play Tribes 2 for review but I'll be trying Black & White for fun.

~Andrew
PS: I agree about DK and DK2. Good until the charm wore off. Anyone ever notice they never got the "play as the heroes" thing going? I recall that being a listed feature on DK1. Molyneax tends to bite off more than he can chew. Let's hope that isn't the case here.

PPS: Daily Radar loved it. Direct Hit, and, I might add, that it was reviewed by Jim Preston, who is probably the best critic on the editorial staff.

I'm confused. From the daily news today, Lionhead is collecting IPs from users. Where are they getting this info? Is the game surreptitiously contacting Lionhead without players' approval and covertly sending their information to Lionhead? Isn't this the thing Blizzard got slammed for a couple years back?

I believe some anti-pirate users have been reporting IP's to Lionhead.

Personally I believe the pirates deserve everything they get.

I'm still not 100% sure what is going on with the game, but people with firewalls have reported that the game makes an attempt to contact Lionhead that the firewall blocks, and if they let the attempt through, Lionhead sends a response back.

EA hasn't responded to my email asking for clarification.

Win2K users are reporting a lot of problems getting the game to run also.

Here is a direct quote from one of the Lionhead guys :

"Jamie Durrant told us the following on the released ISO version of B&W:

We have a large list of IP's that are playing the illegal copy of the game, so we have them all logged. We will be contacting the ISP's for details on the accounts, and also the IPs that are logged as playing the illegal version will be banned from playing the full multiplayer game. :)

And we *have* logged loads of IP's.."

How are they getting those IPs? Does only the warez version report the IPs to Lionhead, or do all versions?

it wouldn't be too hard to get there IP's and i think they have a right to record IP's for warez versions...though what is a warez version to a legal version i think would be hard to determine. are they going to try to ban these ppl from there isp's?

etc

I think they're going to try to ban the IPs from multiplayer games. I'm not sure how they'll ban dynamic IPs though.

On a DHCP sometimes ppl will recieve an IP that somebody else might have had. in that case its possible someone who legally bought the game could be banned becuase of having an IP that somebody else had a week ago...

etc

What's cheezing me is that I forked out CAD 68 for Black and White yesterday--and it doesn't run on my system! I get the infamous black screen after the splash screen, followed by a silent return to the desktop. It fails the same way under Win2K or WinME; take your pick.

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Lee,
Rich LaPorte at www.gonegold.com found a solution.
Scroll down to his B&W mini-review. Something to do with your dial out software and area code info.

~Andrew

"Something to do with your dial out software and area code info."

This has to be a new one for getting a game to run. Why on earth would dialup stuff have anything to do with the single-player game now working? Does Black & White not want to work unless it can phone home?

Hehe,
Let's wait for the ET downloadable creature. It'd be a natural. Oh, according to the Readme the discomfitting email stuff the game can do does not work with Outlook Express. Which is what I use. Whew, since most of my address book is editors I'd hate to think how those corresponding villagers would suffer (editors reading this excepted of course).

So far my view of the game is:
Looks great
I like the AI
Charming
F**k the camera controls

But it's still early.

--Andrew

Hi, Andrew.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that the problem I'm experiencing is related to the game's apparent dependence on Dial-Up Networking. B&W doesn't run on my wife's system, either, and I don't have DUN installed on either machine. Neither of them has a modem, just a NIC that talks to my DSL connection through a router/firewall. My machine and my wife's are fairly dissimilar, but this is one of the traits they share.

There was a Usenet posting I read this morning that mentioned a couple of command line switches that can be added to the program shortcut: /FORCEINETCONN and /NOINETCONN, if I recall correctly. I'm going to try the former when I get home tonight and see whether it solves the problem. (Aside: How the hell do people discover these things? Do they sit there in a hex editor, searching the code for text strings? Did I miss something in the readme?)

Now, why the hell couldn't they make the email stuff work with Outlook Express? I mean, Microsoft only gives it away with every copy of Internet Exploder, Windows 98, and Windows ME...

"Now, why the hell couldn't they make the email stuff work with Outlook Express? I mean, Microsoft only gives it away with every copy of Internet Exploder, Windows 98, and Windows ME..."

Yep, pretty stupid. Express is what I use too.

It sounds like they made it work with what they had, which must have been Outlook.

"How the hell do people discover these things? Do they sit there in a hex editor, searching the code for text strings? Did I miss something in the readme?"

Yep, its in the readme. Under section 8 on networking.

The game won't play unless you have a dial-up connection? So, it won't let you enjoy it unless you allow it to connect to some other machine without your consent? Am I the only that finds that more than a little creepy?

Any word on Win Me users? Are they having issues?

---

Quote:

Yep, its in the readme. Under section 8 on networking.

---

Kazz, I've now attempted to run B&W on Win2K, WinME, and Win98 on the same hardware, and WinME on my wife's system. We're batting a thousand--it won't run on any of those configurations here.

Runs fine for me under Windows Me.

"So far my view of the game is:
Looks great
I like the AI
Charming
F**k the camera controls"

Man, that's exactly how I feel. The camera controls are just so tedious that it's ruining the game for me.

I just got my creature. I know I need to play longer, but I really don't give a rat's ass about my creature. If the thrust of the game is me raising and shaping it and watching it exhibit astonishing AI, I'm just not interested.

Anyway, I need to learn the keyboard shortcuts for movement, because the mouse stuff is killing me.

About the movement, I can zoom out and see all the island. Is there a way, from this zoomed out view, to simply click on the area I want to zoom in to? That's what I would like.

"Man, that's exactly how I feel. The camera controls are just so tedious that it's ruining the game for me."

Another developer falls into the sad trap of NOT BUYING A GODDAMN COPY OF GROUND CONTROL. 'nuff said. They did a decent job, though, better than most. Of course Ground Control is a terrible game.*

"I just got my creature. I know I need to play longer, but I really don't give a rat's ass about my creature. If the thrust of the game is me raising and shaping it and watching it exhibit astonishing AI, I'm just not interested."

The creatures are the best thing about this game. If you already aren't into the creature, for amusement if nothing else, you need to quit playing now. Trust me on this one, Mark. Level 3 involves winning without your creature (a plot point) and dear God, the tedium! It was physically painful.

I was a little leery too, but if you subtract the creatures from this game (remember your enemies have one, too) you have a rather boring, typical God sim.

Black and White is about the creatures, for better or worse. I personally think it's kinda neat, and they did an outstanding job in this regard (animation, AI, feedback, logic, etc). The rest of the game? Uhh.. not so much.

Besides, it just cracks me up every time my cow points at me and Moos. I like to think he's saying "You! You're the man! Yes you!" .. or maybe that's just my low self-esteem talking.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

* This phrase (tm) Tom Chick, used with permission.

"Is there a way, from this zoomed out view, to simply click on the area I want to zoom in to? That's what I would like."

You can double click to jump to any visible point. From the Temple room map, you can also double click to zoom to that point.

I'm getting more used to the camera system now that I use things like bookmarks, the C key to go to my creature, and the space bar to go to my temple. Combine these with the occasional use of the cursor keys and it's pretty painless. So far, it seems they've done about as well as they can do with a 3D engine like this.

-Tom

"So far, it seems they've done about as well as they can do with a 3D engine like this."

I concur. The view should pan when the mouse moves to the edge of the screen, though. Not doing this was a mistake, but it's not catastrophic, and they got everything else right.

As I said, they did a good job. 3D cameras always require more work from the user. They get bonus points for the excellent bookmark system. It's essential to quickly navigating the island: CTRL+1, 1, CTRL+2, 2, etc.

Two major boners though.

First, is it just me or is the fighting in Black and White completely impossible to control? The camera keeps rotating around the combatants, and I have to click on myself to block and specific locations on the enemy to attack.. uhh.. okay? What "Game God" came up with that?

Also, I am not a fan of the mouse gestures system. Oh yeah, it's cool, it's godlike, it's unique, it's.. A PAIN IN THE FRIGGIN' ASS. I can't tell you guys how many times I've tried to gesture something and by the time I complete it, whatever event I'm trying to react to is completely over (say.. a fire). Or, worse, in my idiot savant gesturing, I'll accidentally grab a tree or some nearby object and fling it across the screen. Whee!

This would be all well and good if the developers had at least provided hotkey shortcuts for this stuff as an alternate input vector. But they didn't. It's gestures or nothing.

Lame.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"PPS: Daily Radar loved it. Direct Hit, and, I might add, that it was reviewed by Jim Preston, who is probably the best critic on the editorial staff."

I'm going to go on the record and say that this 'review' reinforces all my negative stereotypes of Daily Radar. Shallow, biased, and based on maybe 16 hours of play time. If that.

C'mon Bub. Does this review mention the fact that the highly touted internet email and weather integration doesn't work for ANYONE? Or the semi-recall of the game? Or the forced gesture system and other extreme mouse-centric demands the game makes of players? Or the rather simple-minded god-game mechanics peeking out from under all this slick creature stuff?

It's best to actually play the game and live with it for a while before actually reviewing it. Daily Radar has completely succumbed to the pressures of "first post!".

Oh well, at least I can always wait for the cdmag review and I know they'll take the time to do it right. I'm pleased that Tom is doing more work for cdmag, too. Quality begets quality.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

I don't have Black and White yet, but all this complaining about cameras tells me this is another game that's perfectly suited to the Microsoft Strategic Commander. Map movement with that device in a 3D game is cake. Plus these other keyboard shortcuts you need can easily be mapped to the buttons.

It's still one of the best peripherals I've ever gotten.

--Dave

---

Quote:

this is another game that's perfectly suited to the Microsoft Strategic Commander.

---

"Or the forced gesture system and other extreme mouse-centric demands the game makes of players?"

You know, you can map all the camera controls to the keyboard, which makes the whole thing feel a lot more like Myth or Ground Control. I'm pretty sure you can map the spells to keys as well.

"Or the semi-recall of the game?"

What semi-recall? This appears to be a rumor started by planetblackandwhite.com.

Here's an opposing rumor from the Bluesnews forum:

"The story is bunk.

While there are lots of people who are having problems with the game in general, the recall/beta issue was based around the total size of the CD's.

Some people are reporting that their CD is 678,918,144 bytes, and others are reporting that their CD is 678,887,424 bytes. Both are correct, as NT/2000 (and Unix variants) reads it as the former, and 9x/ME reads it as the latter. I verified this with my CD, as it gets two different readings from two different machines.

The most common problem appears to be an issue with the SafeDisk v2. technology used with the disk. This causes the game to crash, or just exit out whenever the game is loaded. Right now, there aren't any widely distributed cd cracks (Gamecopyworld is silent..), but when there are, this would be the best solution for that problem."

And here is a quote from the official site:

"There seems to have been a rumour spread about that EA shipped a beta version of the game instead of the final GOLD version. This is not the case. The versions on sale are the final GOLD version."

"I'm pretty sure you can map the spells to keys as well."

You'd be pretty surely wrong. Check your manual. Check your options screen. I did.

"What semi-recall? This appears to be a rumor started by planetblackandwhite.com."

I thought they called EA and confirmed it? Says so right on the main page. If they're wrong then they sure will be eating a whole lotta crow. Plus, didn't someone here post that they got a CD with no authorization code on the back?

I'm no newbie. I expect problems with PC games. But this smacks of rushed-to-make-the-quarter distribution errors to me. I was just pointing out that the DR review was printed so early that all of this hasn't even been resolved yet, and should be factored into any thorough review of the game.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"I don't have Black and White yet, but all this complaining about cameras tells me this is another game that's perfectly suited to the Microsoft Strategic Commander. Map movement with that device in a 3D game is cake. Plus these other keyboard shortcuts you need can easily be mapped to the buttons."

Actually I tried this (I own one) and I disagree. I really like the SC in theory. But in practice, unless the game has specific analog support for it.. the mapping of analog sliding to digital input is way more of a hindrance than a help. For me anyway.

Ground Control and Age of Kings are the only two games I know of with native analog support for the SC. I wish Sacrifice and B&W did, too.. sigh.

And Dave, I'm still waiting for you to comment on the Sega and X-Box announcement. You DC fanboy you! I bet you change your tune on the X-Box now! ;)

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

---

Quote:

Hey, Dave, does Microsoft give you a kickback for every plug you give their stuff or something? ;-)

If not, they should. I daresay that you're the best PR guy they've got.

---

---

Quote:

Actually I tried this (I own one) and I disagree. I really like the SC in theory. But in practice, unless the game has specific analog support for it.. the mapping of analog sliding to digital input is way more of a hindrance than a help. For me anyway.

---

>>But this smacks of rushed-to-make-the-quarter distribution errors to me.

I suspect it's all problems with copy protection. The greater your distribution, the more people buy the game, the more problems will be noted. It seems like a HUGE issue, when in fact they're moving a boatload of copies (apparently), and it may be a small percentage being affected.

Also, more people have DVD and these new 40X and 72X CD-ROMs, which have more problems with copy protection then 32X drives.

Others are reporting that the game doesn't work if you don't have Dial Up Networking installed, which isn't true. None of our machines at work have it, and I don't have it at home, and the game works fine. I've found one bug, and discovered a way to wig out the computer AI, but aside from that the game looks incredibly polished and far from a rush job considering its obvious complexity.

"You'd be pretty surely wrong. Check your manual. Check your options screen. I did."

You were so close! After you're done checking the manual and the options screen, check the readme...

Yes,
Steve Bauman is right. Curse me for buying that 72X CD-ROM Drive because EA's wondrously stupid copy protection is causing a load-up crash roughly 30% of the time. And when it does load, it takes 90 seconds to load.

At this point I'd take a code wheel.

As a reviewer I'm not supposed to say this... but I'm not a reviewer for Black & White. I bought it and dammit, I want a freaking -nocd crack NOW!

-Andrew

"I have to get on the manly man writer's lists at these companies so I get stuff free like Bub, Asher and Chick."

I paid for my copy. Hated to do it, but I did. No telling when, if ever, EA will send me a review copy, and I didn't want to be out of step with the rest of the gaming world.

I'll play it some more tonight and over the weekend, but if I don't start enjoying it more, I'll quit. I don't think it's bad, but I'm just not interested in training my creature. It seems like work instead of fun, and I'm just not interested in seeing it cavort about.

---

Quote:

"I paid for my copy. Hated to do it, but I did. No telling when, if ever, EA will send me a review copy, and I didn't want to be out of step with the rest of the gaming world."

---

---

Quote:

I knew if I hung out here long enough I'd get some one-liners to toss out at the wife in defense of my hobby.

---

For the record,
I paid for mine too.
For almost exactly the same reason Asher mentioned.

Mark, after you leave the tutorial level... and enter the next tutorial level... things get a lot more interesting. I'm still annoyed more than I'm smiling though.

Molyneaux's designs just seem to sort of hang out on the borders of funland. Looking wistfully in at the other kids... the bully Quake, the class president Wright and the QB, Sid Meier. Molyneaux is the odd-looking kid at school you want to hang out with more... sort of.

Ok, now the game is just causing bad metaphors in me.

--Andrew

---

Quote:

Also, more people have DVD and these new 40X and 72X CD-ROMs, which have more problems with copy protection then 32X drives.

---

>>I don't think it's bad, but I'm just not interested in training my creature.

Then attach the learning leash to yourself and go about your normal business. Your creature will learn while you do your regular tasks.

-------------------
6. Controller Notes
-------------------

Control key additions:
----------------------
Please note: These will be overwritten if you assign these keys to other commands in the ingame Options/controls menu.

R - repeat Miracle (same as using the repeat Gesture).
M - Miracle selection mode (same as using the Miracle Gesture).

---

Hmm. That's not exactly what I had in mind, considering you still have to use *gestures*, except in the case of REPEAT.

On the copy protection, more information is available here:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/articles/cdprotection/page12.shtml

Very interesting stuff, actually. Reading is not supposed to be a problem, but the bit pattern used makes it near-impossible for most CD-R writers to deal with.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Also, more people have DVD and these new 40X and 72X CD-ROMs, which have more problems with copy protection then 32X drives."

The kenwood multibeam drives are NOTORIOUS for causing problems like that. My 40x multibeam was one of the worst pieces of hardware I've ever purchased, hands down. I hated that goddamn drive.

On the other hand I have two different DVD-ROM drives here and the game works in both.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"Hmm. That's not exactly what I had in mind, considering you still have to use *gestures*, except in the case of REPEAT."

Where do you get the idea you still have to use gestures? The 'm' key lets you click on the miracle instead of doing the gesture.

"Where do you get the idea you still have to use gestures? The 'm' key lets you click on the miracle instead of doing the gesture."

I just tried it. On my machine, hitting "M" is the same as doing the miracle gesture. You still have to gesture the specific miracle you want.

And I have "R" remapped so I'm screwed on repeat! It's not listed in the options controls. No way to remap it. Grrreat.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

You don't actually have to use the gestures. You can go to the town center where the miracle originates and click on it, or go back to your temple and select the miracle.

Frankly, they're not that hard to do once you've practiced a bit. Isn't that funny... you might have to actually practice at a game to get better.

Sheesh, PC gamers bitch about nothing being original, and then someone comes up with something original and we bitch you can't control it like everything else.

"Sheesh, PC gamers bitch about nothing being original, and then someone comes up with something original and we bitch you can't control it like everything else."

Steve, this is nothing more than handwriting recognition. It ain't new or original. It has a whole set of issues that go along with it.

My Palm circa 1996 had this same crap in the form of Scribble. Perhaps you've heard of it? And it's just as frustrating writing with it then, as it is now. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but we have a whole keyboard attached to this game, unlike a Palm.

I'm not complaining about the gestures themselves. They're unique/cool/godlike/waycooldude. What I am complaining about is the fact that NO ALTERNATIVE KEYBOARD INPUTS WERE PROVIDED for this critical function. I can switch leashes with a keystroke but I can't select a spell with one? I've got one word for you: Sloppy. This is no less sloppy than the Oni developers providing no means to remap controls.

And no, I don't consider "bookmarking the temple" a real alternative. I should be able to hit "W" for water spell if I so desire. It's just laziness, combined with the all-too-common developer hubris. Eg, we created a gesture system and we will force everyone to use it.

By the way Steve, I hear you can get pretty good with the Oni control scheme if you just practice with it for a bit. ;)

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

>>And I'm not sure if you noticed, but we have a whole keyboard attached to this game, unlike a Palm.

Yes, mapping 29 keys for the miracles would be a major improvement. Not.

>>What I am complaining about is the fact that NO ALTERNATIVE KEYBOARD INPUTS WERE PROVIDED for this critical function.

Hit space (which takes you too the temple), then click on the miracle you'd like. Is that too hard?

>>I've got one word for you: Sloppy. This is no less sloppy than the Oni developers providing no means to remap controls.

It's not sloppy, it's called a design decision. You may not like it, but it was a conscious decision.

>>Eg, we created a gesture system and we will force everyone to use it.

Do you play console games? They somehow make do without a keyboard and still provide deep gameplay. Remapping keys for every function is the lazy way out, and not the solution for every single interface convention.

Someone (finally!) comes up with a truly interesting interface and you dismiss it without even practicing. Did you know you can see the other gods casting spells by watching them? It's completely integrated into the gameplay. Is it difficult to master? You bet. Just move the mouse slower and watch the example traces... you don't have to be very precise.

That particularly interface is one of the challenges of the game. It's part of the gameplay. Would you prefer the game if you could rubber band multiple units and give them orders, and maybe more automation? Maybe you could queue multiple buildings.

Oh wait, we've just made Black & White into every other real-time strategy game in existence.

>>By the way Steve, I hear you can get pretty good with the Oni control scheme if you just practice with it for a bit. ;)

The Oni control scheme didn't bug me (that's exactly how I would have set the keys up). That doesn't mean they shouldn't have been remappable.

Now, the equivalent argument (since you brought it up), would be that you'd bitch that Oni should have allowed you to remap all of the special moves to keys instead of forcing you to do "punch, punch, kick" in a certain rhythm. Gee, that would be fun, right? It wouldn't require any skill to do any of the special moves, just map 'em to a key.

Say what you want about the B&W interface, but it's just dumb that moving the mouse to the borders of the screen doesn't let you scroll the view. I can't understand why they didn't make it work like that? What they have isn't an improvement over that scheme -- it's worse.

To move forward with the mouse in B&W I should just have to move it to the top of the screen and keep it there and the view should scroll. Instead I have to move the mouse up, press and hold the left mouse button, and then drag the mouse back towards me. Repeat to move forward again. It's ridiculous. I really do think this is a case of Lionhead just wanting to be different.
As to the spell gestures, I haven't gotten far enough into the game to know much about them, but I don't see why keyboard commands couldn't at least be available. If having to use the gesture system is part of the challenge of the game, I guess that's just a challenge I won't appreciate. I didn't like the gesture-click thing in Myth either, and was grateful when Bungie patched in a keyboard command alternative.

I did throw the rocks. It took me about 20 tries to knock the rock off. I found the whole thing irritating. I just don't like having to rely on the mouse for that sort of thing.

Mark one reviewer mentioned he assigned the ASWD keys to move the view a la Quake/HalfLife. You might find the game easier if you do this.

"Yes, mapping 29 keys for the miracles would be a major improvement. Not."

Hey, I've got a novel idea for you. How about letting the user decide? We do have 101 keys here.

"Hit space (which takes you too the temple), then click on the miracle you'd like. Is that too hard?"

Come on, Steve. If I see a fire I have to go through this convoluted gesture exercise TWICE (once if you're clever enough to read the readme) to get a simple freaking *rain* spell? Or, following your suggestion, I can zoom to another part of the map, make a selection, then zoom back? Interface hell, here we come! Is it really too much to ask that a simple hotkey selects the rain spell in this scenario? Good lord.

"Do you play console games? They somehow make do without a keyboard and still provide deep gameplay. Remapping keys for every function is the lazy way out, and not the solution for every single interface convention."

And yet there ARE keyboard equivalents for some of the gestures. I'll say it again: Sloppy.

"Someone (finally!) comes up with a truly interesting interface and you dismiss it without even practicing."

No, I dismiss it after making umpteen bazillion frustrating mistakes, and realizing how much easier it would be to just press the button for the spell I want. I think you've mistaken "look how clever this is!" for actual game design. Hey, happens to the best of us.

"Did you know you can see the other gods casting spells by watching them? It's completely integrated into the gameplay. Is it difficult to master? You bet. Just move the mouse slower and watch the example traces... you don't have to be very precise."

I'm sorry. I stand corrected. Evidently this is a virtual handwriting recognition sim. Mavis Beacon, Peter Molyneux. Peter Molyneux, Mavis Beacon.

"Oh wait, we've just made Black & White into every other real-time strategy game in existence."

No, this one has a creature that likes to eat its own poop. Surely this deserves a nobel prize.

I don't see you defending the combat interface I complained about above. Same problem. A rotating 3D view that requires players to click on specific areas of both your character and your opponent. Are these developers insane? Do you really think those last 10 years Capcom et al spent perfecting the fighting game should be thrown out the window?

"Now, the equivalent argument (since you brought it up), would be that you'd bitch that Oni should have allowed you to remap all of the special moves to keys instead of forcing you to do "punch, punch, kick" in a certain rhythm. Gee, that would be fun, right? It wouldn't require any skill to do any of the special moves, just map 'em to a key."

The analogy fails. I have to have enough mana to cast the spell, and that's where the difficulty comes in. There's no "stamina" in Oni. You can execute 50 super moves in a row if you want. Yet I cannot similarly cast "rain" 50 times, as I'm always low on precious mana.

Making the player jump through these handwriting recognition hoops is just excise and should be OPTIONAL. I am not arguing that it should be removed from the game, just that alternate input vectors should be provided as a courtesy to the user.

Just like ONI.

"I did throw the rocks. It took me about 20 tries to knock the rock off. I found the whole thing irritating. I just don't like having to rely on the mouse for that sort of thing."

The game is way, way, WAY too mouse centric. I don't mind the rocks so much (sort of like a Golf game), but not providing alternatives-- or, worse, providing alternatives in some cases but not others-- is sloppy.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"The game is way, way, WAY too mouse centric. I don't mind the rocks so much (sort of like a Golf game), but not providing alternatives-- or, worse, providing alternatives in some cases but not others-- is sloppy."

I don't think it's sloppy. I think it's a design decision. I don't like this particular design, though. Like you say, if you want to do a rain spell, why do you have to wiggle the mouse around or else visit the temple? The miracles could even be hotkeyed to the M key, which could then display a spell wheel with the 29 miracles on it. The ones you know would be highlighted. Click on the miracle you want.

Neverwinter Nights is going to be mouse-centric, but in a user-friendly way. To cast a spell you click on the wizard and a small spell wheel is superimposed over the wizard. Select the type of spell you want and that cascades open a little menu of choices. Then pick the spell from the list.

I'm also getting tired of the petting and punishing. I wish I could just click on the creature and designate what I want -- the percentage reward or punishment. Why should I have to use the mouse to slap him over and over again? Why can't I just somehow let the game know I want him punished and have it happen? I just get tired of all the mousing around I have to do. Just a little while ago I was trying to teach the creature to not eat the villagers so I had to slap him a lot. Slap slap slap about 75 times. It was just tedious.

"Do you play console games? They somehow make do without a keyboard and still provide deep gameplay. Remapping keys for every function is the lazy way out, and not the solution for every single interface convention."

I must disagree. Having to make do with the controller is usually a very poor substitute for a keyboard/mouse interface. I often see reviewers blast console-to-PC ports that don't bother to improve the interface beyond what a controller is capable of doing (like using two keys to scroll a letter wheel instead of allowing the player to type). Just like limiting the number of saves, there are issues that should remain at the player's option. If I am going to be allowed to use my keyboard, then I also want to set the keys to ones I find intuitive. This works very well in Sacrifice, and on the fly at that. Shiny 1, Lionhead 0.

My cynical side thinks that they made the game this way to make console ports easier. I played Populous almost solely on the Genesis, so I expect Lionhead is again keeping the console market in mind.

"I just get tired of all the mousing around I have to do. Just a little while ago I was trying to teach the creature to not eat the villagers so I had to slap him a lot. Slap slap slap about 75 times. It was just tedious."

[laugh] Geez Mark your starting to sound like one of those "tired and jaded" gamers that BobM was describing.

Mark (et al)..

Use the cursor/ASWD keys to move the view around. I use the cursor and shift keys most of the time to move the view around and zoom in and out w/ the mouse wheel. I also use the short-cuts (C for creature, L for leash, etc) to help speed things up.

And for all of you having problems with the gesture system... IT'S NOT THAT HARD!

A) You don't have to hold down any buttons to do the gesturing.

B) Do a little spiral to bring up your spell menu. This is nice because it turns your hand red and you can actually see what you're gesturing.

I'm loving the system. It's not perfect, but once you get the hang of it it becomes second nature.

And Mark... why not just ignore your creature if you don't want to take care of it. You don't HAVE to play as a good god... Just pummel the neighbours with fireballs all day.

I've been playing the game every spare minute since I got home with it on Wednesday and am very impressed. I admit there are some things that could be changed/tweaked, but I played for about 3-4 hours the first night and never even looked at the manual. I didn't find the interface that difficult and the tutorials helped familiarize me with everything.

But to each his own, as they say. I've been able to train my leopard to do a lot of stuff by himself now. Sure, he does require some coaxing and petting, but not all the time. I just get him up to 100% (either reward or punishment) and then let him go off on his own for a bit. It's worked ok for me.

I have to agree with Fargo from Gamespy though. B&W is a whole different game for each person who plays... what might be a divine experience for one player could be sheer hell for another... and it doesn't help when there are install and other technical problems... (thankfully I've had none on my system)

Sorry... it wasn't Fargo who said that... it was either Gabe or Tycho from Penny Arcade on the news page. Woops!

"I also use the short-cuts (C for creature, L for leash, etc) to help speed things up."

My goodness, shortcuts to speed things up! What a novel concept! Wouldn't it be more "fun" to use gestures for the leash? Because you certainly can.

As for desire to continue playing, Level 3 pretty much broke me, sort of like that russian guy in Rocky III.

Why level 3? Because when you don't have your creature and are forced to convert three 1600+ belief villages not under your control, you realize there's not much actual _game_ underneath the (very cool) creature stuff.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"B&W is a whole different game for each person who plays... what might be a divine experience for one player could be sheer hell for another"

Some games are like that. Diablo's a good one. Many love it, but others think it's just boringly repetitive mouseclicks.

My problem is that so far I just haven't had much fun with B&W. I don't know if I want to put much more time into the game when I could be playing Fallout Tactics, Kohan, Serious Sam, the Tropico beta I have, Blade of Darkness, UO: Third Dawn, etc.

I've barely touched the surface of this game, but i think its very good so far...not completely original, but combines alot of elements to be ...original.

It feels sorta like The Settlers meets The Sims meets Populous... well if you're playing it you know what i mean. I like just watching things in this game so far...its sorta a voyeur game.

I don't know whats the commotion about the interface...i think its fine as it is...its sorta like Sacrifice, if you can control the interface in Sacrifice i dont think you should have problems with B&W. though i haven't got too many miracles yet.

etc

Here's a decent into madness with regards to Black & White...

http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/march01/cow/

You've got to say one thing about the game... It has great stories for you to tell. I don't know of any other game I've played recently (except MAYBE the Metal Gear Solid 2 demo) that I've told my friends about as much. All the wacky little things I've done in the game. And that's what I'm finding all over the web (when you get past all the complaints and the formulaic reviews).

Lots of neat little stories. Like my breakdancing Leopard.

But I understand where you're coming from Mark. I've been lucky... I knew what Black & White was about, but didn't get sucked into the hype machine. I just knew it was supposed to be good and I liked the concepts (and everything else Molyneaux has done). But if you get bored of it (which I probably will too), the go ahead... play Blade of Darkness (great game... once you get the hang of the control).

>>Hey, I've got a novel idea for you. How about letting the user decide? We do have 101 keys here.

Yes, and all games should use them for all functionality and not provide any challenges for players. You probably use to bind rocket jumps in Quake too, since clearly anything with any semblance of a challenge should be made simpler for you.

You don't have to use the gesture system. There is a simple alternative; clicking on the spells themselves. And you can hit "R" to repeat the spell (and if you've mapped that key, you can still use it to repeat... it double binds both functions, which was obviously a last-second addition and would be the only example of something that was "sloppy"... the gesture system, despite your claims otherwise, isn't "sloppy").

Should there be a shortcut for putting a villager in your hand? How about one for petting your creature? Maybe one for planting a tree? How about up and down keys for the totems (you could have a key that pops up a totem menu, then use two others to select left and right, then two more to do up and down on the totem you select with, what, a seventh key to select it). How about a shortcut for WINNING the level?

I understand frustrations with the gesture system. But it's a DESIGN ASPECT of the game, just like the decision to have a creature. They elected to make an interface that required you to replicate patterns to cast spells. To give shortcuts would remove a challenge from the game, much like removing, say, the requirement to collect wood.

It's not sloppy to not have shortcuts for this particular interface. It's a conscious design decision to have an interface that is done entirely on screen with a mouse; Molyneux told me this back when he first showed the game over three years ago.

>>Is it really too much to ask that a simple hotkey selects the rain spell in this scenario? Good lord.

So basically you just want the game to be easier for you. You don't want to have to struggle when something's on fire, you don't want to be saying, "Oh shit, my cow is dying..." as you struggle and get spazzed out. You want a cakewalk. "Oh, a fire. Click, it's out." In other words, you want little to no challenge whatsoever.

What if the game had you going to your home town, clicking on the fire department, selecting a truck, filling it with people, then driving it to the town to put out the fire? Would you prefer it be a hotkey as well?

They made the miracle interface something the player had to learn. You seem to want the entire game spoon fed to you with shortcuts for everything.

>>And yet there ARE keyboard equivalents for some of the gestures. I'll say it again: Sloppy.

There are no equivalents for any actual miracle.

>>No, I dismiss it after making umpteen bazillion frustrating mistakes, and realizing how much easier it would be to just press the button for the spell I want.

In other words, you suck so to make your game easier you want a challenge removed?

Okay, I suck at Quake. I wish there was a shortcut that would immediately kill my opponent in deathmatch. It's so hard to fire all of those rockets with any accuracy. It's sloppy that they have all of these shortcuts for everything else, but not for killing someone.

There.

>>Hey, happens to the best of us.

Sorry, clearly I lack your insight.

>>Do you really think those last 10 years Capcom et al spent perfecting the fighting game should be thrown out the window?

Well, last I checked it wasn't a fighting game, but frankly I have no intention of debating every element of the game with anyone online at the moment. I'm sorta busy playing the game and, guess what, getting better at casting miracles from memory. I can cast most all in one motion, but I've had the game for over a week already, while y'all are on what, your second day?

After two days you already think you know the way the game should have been designed? You should work for Daily Radar.

Seriously, this is a problem with hardcore gamers. Whether we realize it nor not, we force every game to be almost like every other game because we're so hung up on certain conventions we're not willing to even consider any alternatives that could provide an interesting gameplay experience. Jason Cross made a good point, that when Windows XP comes out he's going to try it exactly as it is out of the box rather then make it work exactly like Windows 95/98/Me. Perhaps there's a better, more efficient, or in game terms more interesting way to do things, but if we just dismiss them or don't even give them a chance, we will stifle any innovation.

I was initially completely baffled by the gesture system, and now I'm totally comfortable with it. In the heat of battle I can cast spells, and in more casual times I often directly select the spells, or outline them slowly for practice.

>>There's no "stamina" in Oni. You can execute 50 super moves in a row if you want. Yet I cannot similarly cast "rain" 50 times, as I'm always low on precious mana.

See the above about Quake. Rockets are "mana", so what you're saying is I should be able to have a "kill bad guy" shortcut in Quake. Making me jump through these combat hoops should be OPTIONAL.

We can go down that path for ANY game. Basically you're arguing, whether intentionally or not, for removing any sequence of things you find challenging from a game and making it a hotkey.

>>If I am going to be allowed to use my keyboard, then I also want to set the keys to ones I find intuitive.

In this case, the gesture system is part of the challenge of the game. Mapping each miracle to a keyboard would alter the entire balance of the game. It's a challenge players have to learn in order to be successful.

And people... you've had the game for what, two days? When did gamers stop wanting to, I don't know, practice at a game to get better? You're already asking for the game to be simplified to better match your play style. People don't want to learn how to play a game anymore; we want them all to play exactly the same, then we complain they're all alike.

If you changed the interface for Black & White, hotkeyed all of the miracles, hotkeyed all of the interactions with your creature, what kind of game would we have? It sure as hell would feel a helluva lot more like every other game in existence.

Whether its dragging around to scroll or petting the creature or using the gesture system, part of the entertainment I get from the game is the fact that actually mechanically playing the game feels entirely different.

>>My problem is that so far I just haven't had much fun with B&W.

I wasn't sure after a couple of days, and still wonder. Though I'd be pretty loopy if I spent 40 hours (or more, thus far) with something that wasn't fun...

I've been saying what Steve is saying for the last two years. PC gamers want to be spoon fed. They don't want challenge and this is a clear case of that. He's exactly right that we're removing the individuality from all games by demanding they all comply with convention. Now, not every new idea is a good one. Maybe some ideas in Black and White aren't good ones? But if you play by its rules and don't like that, it's simply your preference and it means you should probably return the game and get your dough back because it ain't for you.

Seriously...this issue has been around for about 3 years now and it just gets worse. I can't remember how many times I've read this same thread about other games. Homogenized games seem to be the only thing anyone will enjoy. I'm sure many of you remember my "ride gamers" comments so I won't bore you with that diatribe again, but simply point out that this is a perfect case in point.

--Dave

Steve's got me convinced. Or to put it more accurately, the game does. I'm still not far into the game but I'm enjoying the gesture system a lot more now. The key was when the game itself told me "you can draw them slowly", good advice. So, I learned fairly quick to have Heal ready when my creature is nearing an enemy village. I've learned how to draw the water spell fast to put out fires.

Steve's right, the game does reward practice and learning. But, sadly, that's going to put it well out of reach of the mainstream Sims crowd I think. Wumpus is right that there needs to be easier ways to do things than there are. As an *option* for people who lack the dexterity or the willpower to learn the gesture click system. Not remappable keys, I've always used default control methods as a reviewer, but ways to cut down the frustration level.

For example: A village of mine just got wiped out by a plague. My only hint was too find the cause. Lacking context I didn't really know where to look for a cause, so I continued messing with Lythas and feeding my dancing worshippers (is there any way to ensure they'll have food?) consequently my people died of plague in that village.

Now, nowhere in the silly excuse for a manual is plague finding mentioned. I just didn't feel like zooming in really close and examining each person for a Typhoid Larry. (I assume that's how you find plague causes, right?).

I'd like more automation. I don't see why the scaffold shop is dormant when my villagers are crying out for homes and there is plenty of wood in the store.

I don't see why my worshippers are starving when I've got 8000 grain not 50 yards away.

Those should be automated. Maybe they are and I haven't figured it out yet....

I'd like a mini-map I can easily and quickly zoom anywhere from. I'd like an easier way to quickly access information. I hate the Temple Interior and I still hate the camera system. Unique doesn't always equal good.

Anyway,
I am liking the game more and more as I play. But I think it's amazing that the knee jerk quickie reviews (Daily Radar and Gamespot) are favorable. My knee jerk reaction isn't so positive. Neither will the mainstream I think.

--Andrew

"In this case, the gesture system is part of the challenge of the game. Mapping each miracle to a keyboard would alter the entire balance of the game. It's a challenge players have to learn in order to be successful."

That's so twitchy, though. I'm not really interested in being adept with the mouse. A game like Diablo is action-oriented to an extreme, yet the interface is very simple and never makes me fumble. The interface isn't a barrier between me and what I want to do in the game. In B&W it is.

>>For example: A village of mine just got wiped out by a plague. My only hint was too find the cause.

It was the food in the store, I believe. It was glowing green.

>>I don't see why the scaffold shop is dormant when my villagers are crying out for homes and there is plenty of wood in the store.

You need craftsmen. They will take wood from the store and build scaffolds. In some cases, they've built their own houses as well, but I'm not sure what exactly triggers that.

>>I'm not really interested in being adept with the mouse.

Do you play action, driving or any reflex oriented game? Those all require you be adept and precise with the controls.

I think it's a matter of expectations. You don't expect a "strategy" game to require that sort of control, so you're reacting negatively to it.

>>The interface isn't a barrier between me and what I want to do in the game. In B&W it is.

Give it time. There may be other barriers to enjoyment of the game, but as I've played more and more, I've found it has nothing to do with the interface. There are other reasons, later on, to start to dislike the games (mainly when you get to the worlds the early reviewers probably never bothered to get to).

Hey thanks for the tip Steve,
I never checked the food, I was really too busy dealing with that evil Ice God and by the time I was done it was too late.

Say, any tips on how to keep your dedicated Worshipers fed? Basically, I'd be happier if there was less micromanagement. Managing gestures, territory, evil Gods, Gold & Silver scrolls and most of all, your creature, is enough headache without hand delivering food to worshippers in the temple area.

"There are other reasons, later on, to start to dislike the games"

Great, that's bad news for sure.

-Andrew
PS: Evil seems much easier to manage than good.

>>Say, any tips on how to keep your dedicated Worshipers fed?

No, not really. They'll die off from hunger or from overworship, so basically you're not supposed to keep worshipping all the time. Occasionally set your totems back to 0 to give them a rest.

Your creature doesn't need to be managed if you've trained it to be helpful. In fact, teach it food and wood gathering and miracles and it'll keep your center pretty full and, if it's in the neighborhood, it'll even feed worshippers or supply wood for new buildings.

>>PS: Evil seems much easier to manage than good.

Yeah, after I finish my "good" game I'm going to be pure evil (I'm reviewing the game, so I feel compelled to explore both sides as much as possible, then dig into multiplayer).

I have a nice cow, but I'm actually a fairly evil god in my current game, at least to other gods/towns. I have a really icky hand. But I have the friendliest cow... she's too damn cute. She has a tendency to break into spontaneous dancing.

"Yeah, after I finish my "good" game I'm going to be pure evil (I'm reviewing the game, so I feel compelled to explore both sides as much as possible, then dig into multiplayer)."

This is grounds for dismissal at Daily Radar. First post!!!!!11!!!@1

"I think it's a matter of expectations. You don't expect a "strategy" game to require that sort of control, so you're reacting negatively to it."

I think it's unnecessary. The true difficulty lies in maintaining mana flow. Adding dexterity hoops to that is artificial. And even so, like Bub pointed out, I'm just saying we need _alternatives_ to the gestures, not that they should be removed. Trust me on this-- there's a reason we aren't all using handwriting recognition today. It's a fundementally flawed approach. And it's even worse when the framerate dips to the teens and you're trying to move the mouse smoothly.

Hell, according to you and Dave this game should be using Voice Recognition with 90% accuracy, and I should be applauding it because "it's different". Never mind that it's totally inefficient and flawed. Sorry guys. I don't buy it. This isn't Mavis Beacon teaches Handwriting.

"Say, any tips on how to keep your dedicated Worshipers fed? Basically, I'd be happier if there was less micromanagement. Managing gestures, territory, evil Gods, Gold & Silver scrolls and most of all, your creature, is enough headache without hand delivering food to worshippers in the temple area."

Well, you can train your creature to feed the worshippers. Or you can just dump a Cubic Assload(tm) of food there (my approach).

"See the above about Quake. Rockets are "mana", so what you're saying is I should be able to have a "kill bad guy" shortcut in Quake. Making me jump through these combat hoops should be OPTIONAL."

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I think just I saw some signs of life. (Brandishes whip) There are two things required for combat in Quake: ammo (mana) and aiming (moving the mouse). There are three things required in B&W: ammo (mana), aiming (moving the mouse) *AND* gesturing (complex patterned mouse movement).

Which of these things doesn't belong?

"Whether its dragging around to scroll or petting the creature or using the gesture system, part of the entertainment I get from the game is the fact that actually mechanically playing the game feels entirely different."

I don't disagree with this, but again, handwriting recognition is a frustrating technology to saddle your game wagon to. I don't have a problem with the rock throwing, map movement, and so forth.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

>>I'm just saying we need _alternatives_ to the gestures, not that they should be removed.

But don't you think just hotkeying the miracles would fundamentally change the entire game?

It would make it easier, but it would also take away yet another thing that actually makes the game unique.

>>There are three things required in B&W: ammo (mana), aiming (moving the mouse) *AND* gesturing (complex patterned mouse movement). Which of these things doesn't belong?

Um, so there's some sort of hard limit to the number of skills a game requires of players? Even if you agree the patterns are complex (which they're not), why isn't gesturing with the mouse in the same category as aiming? Both require precision, both require movement, both require skill.

>>I should be applauding it because "it's different". Never mind that it's totally inefficient and flawed.

No, you should be open-minded and perhaps try to play it on its terms for more then two days before passing judgement. Instead, you want hotkeys, a shortcut that will keep you from perhaps actually learning an interesting new control method.

And maybe it DOES suck; you'd never know if you had a hotkey.

But just remember, every time you bitch about games all playing the same, remember that you were completely opposed to a game that actually tried to make you play it differently.

"why isn't gesturing with the mouse in the same category as aiming? Both require precision, both require movement, both require skill."

Aiming is just pointing with a mouse, which is something that a mouse is great for. The gesture stuff is like drawing with a mouse, which is something that a mouse is not great for.

"No, you should be open-minded and perhaps try to play it on its terms for more then two days before passing judgement. Instead, you want hotkeys, a shortcut that will keep you from perhaps actually learning an interesting new control method."

Gestures adds nothing to the game but _difficulty_. It is neither new, nor unique, nor intuitive. It's only interesting if you've never owned a Palm, I guess.

You also ignored Mark's excellent example of gestures as used in Myth. They were incredibly inefficient and difficult to master. Guess what? Bungie offered an alternative.

"Aiming is just pointing with a mouse, which is something that a mouse is great for. The gesture stuff is like drawing with a mouse, which is something that a mouse is not great for."

Exactly. The difference between tapping with your stylus on a Palm (intuitive) and writing characters on it that have to be processed and recognized (non-intuitive). Don't you remember all those Doonesbury cartoons that ripped the Newton for this handwriting stuff? Same issues.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

p.s. Why is it that every time I stay at the Super 8 motel I have to listen to people humping in the other room? Man this couple is really going at it. Sheesh. I'm beginning to feel inadequate.

Totally off topic: Wumpus, count your blessings. I once stayed in a hotel in London on a hot summer day where everyone had their windows open. I was in a weird cornery room where you could reach out the window and easily touch the window of an adjoining room. There was a couple staying in that room. Their window was open, too...

"There was a couple staying in that room. Their window was open, too..."

So why didn't you say hello? Offer tips and suggestions. Ask "Say! Need a hand over there?"
Or, best yet, start singing "The Old Gray Mare, She Ain't What She Used to Be!" At the top of your lungs. Have fun with life.

In other news....

Guys, Steve is right. Gesturing is fine, easy and even an "all thumbs" player can get it right 90% of the time. There are far greater flaws with this game than the camera and gesture system. My biggest problem is the dull micromanagement. I want smarter peons because I'm sick of managing tiny, tiny disciples.

--Andrew

>>The gesture stuff is like drawing with a mouse, which is something that a mouse is not great for.

...and millions of artists who use Photoshop daily stand up and say, "Are you high?"

>>Gestures adds nothing to the game but _difficulty_. It is neither new, nor unique, nor intuitive.

Having an interface where you only manipulate things on-screen is pretty new and unique, i.e. raising totems and using the gestures. Or am I forgetting a bunch of games that didn't use pop-up menus and/or menu buttons? (Seriously, are there others?)

As for intuitive, I actually find the gesture system intuitive. Then again, and I hate to keep droning on about this, I've been playing the game for about 10 days now.

>>It's only interesting if you've never owned a Palm, I guess.

Well, I've never owned a Palm, though I do have a palm.

>>You also ignored Mark's excellent example of gestures as used in Myth. They were incredibly inefficient and difficult to master. Guess what? Bungie offered an alternative.

Last I checked that is a totally different game, with completely different pacing and gameplay mechanics. You directly, as opposed to indirectly, control individual units.

Anyway, aside from shortcuts you haven't offered any alternatives. The pop-up wheel that Mark mentioned wouldn't fly because one of their specific interface designs was no pop-up interface or menus. The interface was the be completely invisible to the player. Whether that's a good idea or not is a different discussion.

So what's the alternative, aside from shortcuts for individual miracles? Seriously dude, if you spent half the time you spent on message boards actually playing the game and working on the gestures, you'd find they're really simple. You don't have to be precise, and you don't have to move quickly. And if you're trying to cast a rapid succession of spells, you probably won't have enough belief to do it in the first place, so just relax.

By the way, I got one of those quick hints while loading that double-tapping the keyboard takes you to you temple (which I did know), then touble tapping it again takes you back to where you previously were (which I didn't). That's a quick way to get around miracle gestures, though even on the final worlds I never felt rushed enough to have to resort to that.

For what it's worth, I finally have the game running. After trying all manner of suggestions from the message boards the last four nights, and some other things besides, somebody reported that the game doesn't seem to like CD-ROM drives mapped to drive letter Z:. ("Hey, that's what both my home systems are mapped to!") So, I changed it to W:, and wouldn't you know, it works now. Jeeeeeez...

Anyhow, I've spent about four hours with it and find it fascinating. As a "software toy", it's a beautiful piece of work, but I think a great deal more time will be required for me to form an intelligent opinion about it as a game.

"My biggest problem is the dull micromanagement. I want smarter peons because I'm sick of managing tiny, tiny disciples."

Actually I find that left to their own devices the villagers do fine. I got in trouble when I over micro-managed them. Basically the only disciples you need are one or two breeders (make sure they are male), one or two farmers, and one forester and one builder. Then let the rest of the people do their own thing and they will get food and wood when they need it. I just supply the workshop with wood on occasion to keep expansion in check and my people are happy. Feeding the worshipers is still a pain in the ass, but I just drop a huge load of food on them (I find fish works particularly well) and they are fine for a while.

Its very easy to go into conventional RTS mode and try to assign tons of villagers for ,say, foresting, but if you do that then they will quickly deforest your land and won't respond to other needs. Consequently you end up with no wood and lots of deaths.

Also, I really like the game's interface. Once I remapped the camera to the keyboard I find it very intuitive. I don't recall seeing it in the manual, but the TAB key will cycle you through all of the villages under your control. I also find the gesture system to be very unique and easy to use. You really don't have to be precise at all.

"...and millions of artists who use Photoshop daily stand up and say, "Are you high?""

I'm not to up on graphic artists, but don't a lot, if not most, use some kind of stylus input when they want to actually draw? I think there's a lot of drawings that are scanned in before they get the Photoshop treatment too. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe professional artists find drawing with a mouse easier than with a stylus?

>>but don't a lot, if not most, use some kind of stylus input when they want to actually draw?

Sure, if they're drawing. But touch-ups, corrections, alterations... those are often done with a mouse, and it's very precise work.

As far as management goes, level 1 is where you teach your creature to heal, make water, make food, and cast strength on himself. Level 2, I kept him on the leash for about 2 hours, and he's now to the point where when the worshippers need food, he's right up there casting miracle food into the group. Need wood at the store? Poof, he's casting wood. Then he'll wander around, flex for the chicks, toss some trees into the construction place.

Last night he did something pretty smart... he snagged a tree from the forest, walked out into the middle of the field and planted it. Watered profusely, took a dump on it, watered it again. Now I've got another forest going.

I found that teaching him to take care of specific needs of the people required leashing him to the flag pole for that need, and not the main building itself. If I tied him to the wood one, he'd start casting miracle wood like mad. Same with worshipper food. If I tie him to worshipper rest, I can wander off and entrust him to drop the totem when they get too tired - in theory... but he seems a bit shy about doing that one thus far.

Mission 3 is just a brutal pain in the ass to me... I spent all that time training him, only to be deprived of him for a level. I can see what the designers were up to though - forcing me to learn micro-management without my beastie. It also teaches you just how much of the enjoyment is tied to the creature aspect of the game. Without him, I'd shelve this game in a day - but with him there, it's a blast.

My only issue with the game is that some of the silver scroll quests are OBNOXIOUS. In three tries, I've not been able to find all the sheep. I spent two hours looking last night, and never found the last of them. My creature was merciful to me... he wandered up there and ate two sheep when I was sufficiently frustrated with it, enabling me to just give up on it.

Some of these quests are really a pain... like the whiner guy on map 3. "go ahead, throw me, you can't kill me!" Oh my, how I've tried and tried to kill that bastard. What do I DO with him? What about the old mystic I followed to his secret spot? What is he supposed to do later? The first musical stone puzzle was interesting, but the level 3 rehash has me mystified since there's no "scale" to put them on and I can't seem to find anyone who knows the tune.

Now, interface-wise, the game is a hit with me. I do rather wish that it would rotate and tilt by bashing the mouse off the screen edge, but I've got keys for that so it's a moot point. If I have to go back to a specific spot more than twice, I just pop a waypoint on it anyway... like from the wood miracle dispenser to the workship... I click 1, 2, and drop a load of wood. Wait a few minutes, repeat. The gestures I got used to real quick, and you can be fairly sloppy with it anyway.

"...and millions of artists who use Photoshop daily stand up and say, 'Are you high?'"

Poor analogy.

As an fledging photoshop artist, the one thing that most gurus seem to stress is that to master photoshop you need to first master the keyboard shortcuts. One things is for sure, you'll never get anywhere using the mouse alla time.

"Sure, if they're drawing. But touch-ups, corrections, alterations... those are often done with a mouse, and it's very precise work. "

Generally, I don't respond to Steve, well-known devil's advocate and high-poobah curmudgeon that he is, but this is a multi-parter, and he makes some good points. Corrections with mice are done at like 500%-700% size. It's not exactly high-precision at that level. Mice are actually terrible for fine control. I use a Logitech marble, and am happy with it. Some guys do use a mouse for everything, but those folks generally keep their mice cleaner (and thus more precise) than the average gamer.

So far as gesture-magic, I personally think it's kind of neat-providing things never get so fast that I don't have time to make my leisurely designs on the screen. If things get to that point, then I'll be less happy. Then again, I'm one of those daily Palm power-people, so Graffitti is no big deal for me. I don't know how others take to it. I'm also using a ball-mouse (the marble), but think it would be a lot harder with a regular mouse.

Now, the beast. It annoyed the hell out of me right up until the second village conversion on the second "level," which is where I am now. He learned a few tricks, and suddenly thought it was just too cool to start making it rain, or make food or wood. That village converted with me hardly even looking at it. When the plague hit and I started healing people, he then started healing people. Once he gets a little more autonomous I think I'll like him better.

Two things that are really annoying me: camera angles and feeding. I have to agree with everyone else here that the camera angles are torturous. The second thing is the micromanagement with feeding the beast (sorry, he doesn't get to be a creature until he is at least a LITTLE self-sufficient. If I wanted a Tamaguchi I'd have save $40 and bought a &*^%&^^ keyfob). If I try to feed him grain, he pukes it back up. So, he roams around looking for livestock, or I'll make a big fish pile for him. I'm not completely convinced he's not snarfing down some of my villagers when I'm looking away, either. It's a pain to keep him fed. A vegetarian outlook, or even the will to get his own friggin' fish, would be a big plus.

Overall, the game is getting less annoying and more enjoyable as I go. But, I still haven't clicked on that gold scroll past the second village, which I'm guessing will draw that "Ice God" I keep hearing about down on me, either...

the blue guy NEVER went agro on me in level 2. It's a sandbox level, really. I suspect it isn't until level 4-5 that the fit hits the shan. You do deliver a whippin on his creature, and he'll lightning yours to death if he strays into enemy territory tho.

If I have ONE thing to bitch about with this game, it's that the tutorial section of the first level (here's how to rotate, here's how to scroll, here's how to...) gets forced on you every time you start a new game. There's no way to skip it, and the pacing is excruciating for someone who's already spent a week with the game.

Actually, there are a number of things I'd like to be able to whack ESC and skip... some of the cutscenes - particularly the singing freaks at the boat. It was cute the first two verses, the first time I saw it. Now it bends me toward evil.

Yeah, this game does seem to have a long-term "dark side" effect to it.

"Generally, I don't respond to Steve, well-known devil's advocate and high-poobah curmudgeon that he is, but this is a multi-parter, and he makes some good points. Corrections with mice are done at like 500%-700% size. It's not exactly high-precision at that level. Mice are actually terrible for fine control. I use a Logitech marble, and am happy with it. Some guys do use a mouse for everything, but those folks generally keep their mice cleaner (and thus more precise) than the average gamer."

Do this:

Start, run, MSPaint, enter. Use your mouse to "write" your name in your standard bank check signature. Now try the same exact exercise, but using a stylus on the PDA of your choice. Notice any difference? Ladies and gents, I rest my case.

Seriously, do NOT reply to this part of the message unless you've tried this exercise.

"And if you're trying to cast a rapid succession of spells, you probably won't have enough belief to do it in the first place, so just relax."

Isn't this what I've been saying all along? The real skill lies in managing your mana. This wacky gesture stuff is just extra work for the gamer for no better reason than to demonstrate how clever the developers think they are.

I want some developer to put voice recognition in their next game, without any alternatives-- and I expect Steve to appear on here talking about how brilliant, useful, and innovative it is.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

So why not just play B&W with a tablet? Actually, I have one, and I may just try that... ;)

-Ben

I have read all the opinions posted on the board and it seems to me B&W is one of those games you will either love or hate :)

I labored thru the first 2 missions and have decided to take it back.

The whole Tamagutchi creature aspect bores me silly. If I wanted that experience I could have had it years ago for less than 10$ and carried it on my keyring. Contrary to some I do not see much originality at all in the game.

The game is brilliantly executed though

--Dan

"The whole Tamagutchi creature aspect bores me silly."

Yeah, it doesn't do much for me either. I think that's the main reason why I've stopped playing it. I could go to the WASD setup and get a better interface going, but the whole creature aspect, which is central to the game, is just dull (for me).

"The whole Tamagutchi creature aspect bores me silly. If I wanted that experience I could have had it years ago for less than 10$ and carried it on my keyring. Contrary to some I do not see much originality at all in the game."

I don't think that's fair. Gestures be damned, but the creatures are amazing. They are the cornerstone of the game, and every part of 'em is top-notch (unprecedented, even): AI, animation, modelling, feedback, etcetera. Plus they're just entertaining as all hell: my lil' virtua buddy! Plus, it's a tremendous morale booster for people like me who have no real-world friends.

I would also argue that this game has the most purely magical beginning of any game I've ever played. Postively enthralling. It's like the video game equivalent of the movie "The Black Stallion" in that regard.

I _really_ could have done without the pooping though.

Too bad there's not much of a game underneath the creatures (which becomes evident as the game wears on), but what can you do?

I honestly prefer Dungeon Keeper to this game though. I liked DK2 also, but it was little more than a very nice upgraded version of the original. I felt like I had already played it!

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

I wonder how console players will respond to B&W. I enjoy the heck out of the game myself. Oddly enough I enjoyed the Sims too. However I get the feeling the majority of PC gamers just want standard meat and potatoes (FPS and RTS) with no seasoning.

Funniest damn thing EVER in a video game happened to me last night...

I was playing B&W multi with my buddy Ralph. His tiger is evil incarnate, and he and my glowing holy ape went to battle. Well, I got my ass kicked and my ape flopped down on the ground. The evil tiger laughed, pointed at him, turned around and bent over... and took a giant shit on my poor unconscious monkey.

Oh my god. The ULTIMATE insult.

>>Ladies and gents, I rest my case.

And what's your point? That a stylus is more precise then a mouse? Well duh.

>>Isn't this what I've been saying all along? The real skill lies in managing your mana.

Well, first off there's no mana in the game, it's belief. And no, that's not particularly challenging to manage, as it just requires you raise your totems and get villagers to worship you. Yeah, more villagers means more worshippers, but if you set your totem to 100%, you'll get enough juice to case a mess of spells.

>>I want some developer to put voice recognition in their next game, without any alternatives-- and I expect Steve to appear on here talking about how brilliant, useful, and innovative it is.

Well, I'm going to stop this conversation, since clearly you either missed my point or I didn't make it particularly well and don't really have the time or energy to explain it over and over again. I don't believe I've ever said anything about the QUALITY of the gesture system, merely that it was interesting and people might want to give it a chance as it represents a change in the way we control games. To dismiss it and ask for shortcuts shows a profound lack of understanding of how it's integrated into the game's design and world. It also shows you're not interested in learning how to play a game and are pushing for all games to have identical controls, which has a tendency to lead to identical gameplay.

Just think if people like you were as vocal back when mouselook came out. "Use a mouse for aiming? Are you insane? The keyboard is WAY more precise."

"The evil tiger laughed, pointed at him, turned around and bent over... and took a giant shit on my poor unconscious monkey.

"Oh my god. The ULTIMATE insult."

Heh heh -- that's pretty funny. Of course if my kids were playing and that happened, they'd raise such a commotion that my wife would come over and see that and then they wouldn't be allowed to play it anymore, probably.

I'll just chime in to say this:

A lot of what I didn't like about Black & White started to melt away as I:

a) configured the controls how I like 'em.
b) got used to what I was doing
c) learned what the hell it is my people do all day
d) Read The Fucking Manual
e) experimented a bit

It started to feel like a typical RTS with a big creature, so I started playing it differently...I started trying to convert "enemy" towns by HELPING them (find THAT in an RTS!). I stopped managing my towns, I removed all disciples, and let them run themselves. I turned it into a game of showing off goofy tricks for non-believers. And it turns out that, you know what?, it WORKS that way just fine. Which is pretty impressive to me. That's just one example, but in many small ways I've actually changed the way I've played the game, and it got interesting and fun for awhile. Now I feel like I know so many good ways to do so many things, it doesn't get very old.

After some 20 hours now, I've gotten really attached to my creature. He does truly interesting things, he seems to have real emotions and personality, and I find myself wondering what he's thinking a lot. I've started to look at my cat (in the real world) and see it in Black & White terms, which is scary. He'll come into the room with a toy in his mouth, drop it, and stare at me, and I'll think "your creature wants to mess around with you." Somebody help me.

As for the gesture system--once I figured out what the game was looking for (I was making gestures too big and too fast), they've become really natural to me. And quick. I have a little problem making an "R" that sticks, but there's a hotkey for that (it's...R!). A suggestion for those that have problems with it--double-tap the space bar to return to your tower, click on the spell you want there, then double-tap the space bar again to return to where you were. It takes just a second or two longer.

In what may ultimately be the biggest compliment, let me finish by saying this: Even when I'm not necessarily "having fun" in the "smile on my face, laughing" sense, I find it really hard to stop playing until I just take care of one more thing, and then finish this building and then get my creature over here, and then...four hours have passed. The last time a game made me play four MORE hours when not "having fun" was Civilization.

"Heh heh -- that's pretty funny. Of course if my kids were playing and that happened, they'd raise such a commotion that my wife would come over and see that and then they wouldn't be allowed to play it anymore, probably."

Why does your wife have a problem with poop ? :-)

Post diaper stress disorder. Happens after you have a couple of kids I guess.

"And what's your point? That a stylus is more precise then a mouse? Well duh."

Wait a second. Weren't you the guy telling us how precise the mouse is? For pointing, it's fabulous. For writing characters, it's terrible. (see above exercise) Yet that's exactly what this game requires us to do-- a bad design decision. Well, that, or an even more maniacial form of micromanagement in zooming back and forth to the temple-- which is worse? I'm not sure.

"It also shows you're not interested in learning how to play a game and are pushing for all games to have identical controls, which has a tendency to lead to identical gameplay."

Yeah, all those console games have identical gameplay. What the heck kind of ignorant statement is this-- every game should have a new controller and a new input method to be interesting? C'mon Steve.

"To dismiss it and ask for shortcuts shows a profound lack of understanding of how it's integrated into the game's design and world."

Gestures are a gimmick, nothing more, nothing less. Can't you see the difference between this and something like Samba De Amigo with the marimbas, or the fishing games with the fishing controller? That's integrated with gameplay. This is just a developer shouting "look how clever we are!" while contorting the mouse interface into doing something it is very poorly suited for.

"Just think if people like you were as vocal back when mouselook came out. "Use a mouse for aiming? Are you insane? The keyboard is WAY more precise.""

Well you're right that we aren't communicating. That's a ridiculous statement. Mice are outstanding as pointing devices. But in B&W we are asked to use our mouse as a stylus to write "Gestures", which it is very ill-suited for. Again, try the above exercise of writing your name with the mouse if you don't believe me.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

>>Weren't you the guy telling us how precise the mouse is?

Yes, I find the mouse a precise device. And a stylus is more precise. Wow!

Look, I don't have a problem with the gesture system. It doesn't need to be precise. But again, you never address how it would alter the game to have an alternative, so whatever. You're absolutely right, I'm totally wrong. The gesture system sucks, is a joke, is the worst control scheme known to man, is a gimmick, ruins the game, Peter Molyneux should be shot for trying something unique, it's evil, the world is going to end tomorrow because of it.

There. You win. I'm officially bored and will be leaving. Bye.

"There. You win. I'm officially bored and will be leaving. Bye."

Thank you, please drive through.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

p.s. Samba De Amigo has an innovative control scheme. Black and White does not-- and worse, it gets in the way, for the reasons I've listed above ad nauseam. I really wish you could see the difference here.

"Peter Molyneux should be shot for trying something unique"

I'm just not keen on the idea of strategy games presenting a challenge like this. The challenges should be of a tactical and strategic nature, not one of manipulating the mouse.

Another way of looking at this is asking if the gesture system adds a lot? Does it make the game better and more enjoyable?

I know - it's a hybrid game, so my argument doesn't necessarily apply.

"Peter Molyneux should be shot for trying something unique"

I agree the game is stunning in it's execution. I even like the gesturing system, it fits nicely in with the concept of the game. I just did not like the game concept. To me it seemed the final distillation of what had been coming in Peter's games since Populous. I saw a lot of exquisite refinement but nothing really new.

I wonder how many people who have children enjoyed this game? To me caring after a pixelated chimp was a really inane waste of time when I could spend that same time with my own children.
I know that same statemant could be said for all games but this one brought it to the forefront.

I think DanC said exactly what I was thinking. As I was returning B&W, a teenager standing at the EB counter said, "I love that game." To which I replied, "If I want to babysit something, I've got a baby at home." I don't think he appreciated my point of view, but there it is.

Just to echo what Dan said, the gesture system was fine, it was the rest of the game that I thought was a waste of my time.

I don't mind the creatures, in fact I enjoyed them tremendously. Do you guys know how many there are in the game? Way more than just the 5-6 we've seen online in screenshots. Someone posted a shot of the hidden fish creature recently. And supposedly there's some kind of hidden bird, too.

The micromanagement (Gestures is a small part of that) and lack of substance in the underlying game mechanics is what killed B&W for me. It's the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER..

You could also argue the case that the creatures are little more than a proxy for the player. Eg, there's so much micromanagement you *need* a creature to help you with all the bullshit stuff you have to do over and over!

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

I find the gesture system easy especially with the red line that trails behind the cursor. I can't imagine anyone having problems tracing those patterns after a couple of practice passes. I could do all of them within 2 minutes. I suppose I am just coordinated. ;)

I like the system because it gives you a feeling of accomplishment when you cast a miracle. It isn't press 7 fire rocket launcher. You actually have to think about what you are doing.

As for doing things over and over again. I play CS quite a bit and it consists of doing the same thing over and over yet I keep going back. Because it is fun and so is B&W.

Micromanagement? Where? All I'm managing is the creature, and he's smart enough that if I send him to a town, he takes it for me with little assistance. The towns themselves will run their own business as long as you meet the desire flags. I make a couple of breeders (actually, my ape does now) and a builder and farmer... that's it.

To me the game is not so much about winning as it is an AI sandbox with goals. I find that relaxing, and it's definitely not a hectic paced title.

Well, there's people who like playing quake, and there's people who are perfectly happy playing MS Solitaire, so I guess there's people who will/won't like anything. For me, I find it to be a relaxing piece of digital interactive art that makes me strategize a little. I like it for that.

Maybe it's an easy conclusion to draw, but I've felt that the real problem with Black & White is that people don't know what to make of it. Since we posted our "knee jerk quickie review" (to quote an earlier posting) last Friday, we've received a ton of reader reviews that basically fall into two categories: Those that give it a 10 out of 10, and those that give it a 3 out of 10. OK, actually, they fall pretty much everywhere in between, too. But, for the most part, there seem to be two camps: Love It, and Hate It.

I think Hate It consists of people who bought the game thinking it was something other than a real-time strategy game at its core. Perhaps EA and Peter Molyneux are equally to blame (if you want to blame someone), but some of the pre-release marketing about how Black & White is a "role-playing game" is just bunk. It's Populous crossed with Pokemon.

So does anyone have any sales figures on this thing yet? It'd be good to see it shake up PC Data's weekly figures.

--Greg

"So does anyone have any sales figures on this thing yet? It'd be good to see it shake up PC Data's weekly figures."

I saw a note on some site that said it was at the 41st slot on some chart, which I'll assume was for the initial week it came out (and which might have only covered a day or two).

I'll be surprised if it ends up being a huge seller. I think it will sell well, but it definitely seems like a hardcore gamers game, despite what some people think about it. The title's a bit weird and the box shows this huge creatures -- not exactly mainstream fare.

"I'll be surprised if it ends up being a huge seller. I think it will sell well, but it definitely seems like a hardcore gamers game"

I got mine at Best Buy a couple days after it came out. EB was sold out, but Best Buy had had a second shipment just come in when I called to inquire. I drove over during dinner and was told to wait a bit as they were still processing them (putting prices on them, etc.). I browsed the computer games section in the meantime. There were nine or ten people all looking at games - seemed like a lot compared to how many people were in the store. Then two employees came out with stacks of games and started handing them out, left and right, to all the people browsing. Seems we were all there for the same reason, and were all waiting for our copy from that shipment.

Based on this experience and the fact that both EB and Best Buy sold out their first shipments immediately, I'd say there was a lot of "in the know" demand for the game, where people were expecting it and knew they were going to buy it. I assume that's usually the hardcore gamer market. Whether the game generates enough buzz among casual gamers to sustain a level of sales that justifies the immense development costs, who knows. Anyway, this is all anecdotal evidence so I'm really just speculating.

"Whether the game generates enough buzz among casual gamers to sustain a level of sales that justifies the immense development costs, who knows."

Remember, Daikatana sold out on its first day too. At least at my local Babbages it did. It cracked the top 10 that week as well, and that was in June against fiercer competition than B&W will face during its debut week. Tribes 2 came out this week after all.

I think it'll do well though. I mean Baldur's Gate 2 well, not Diablo 2 well. And certainly not Sims or RC Tycoon well.

-Andrew

>Samba De Amigo has an innovative control scheme. Black and White does not--

Samba De Amigo has innovative CONTROLLERS, but the "system" is pretty standard dance party type stuff. In fact, it's almost just like Parappa the Rapper (hit the proper trigger in rhythm when the dot gets to it).

Considering that no game has ever had a control system or method of play that's even really very close to Black & White, I'd call that innovative.

>and worse, it gets in the way, for the reasons I've listed above ad nauseam.

Please understand that just because it gets in YOUR way doesn't mean it gets in EVERYONE'S way. It doesn't get in my way at all. I have no problem making gestures now, and I still find it an interesting, fun, and "godly" addition to the game control.

I know plenty of people who try to play a mouselook game and immediately end up staring and the ceiling or floor, running into lava or acid (who builds their space dungeon on top of LAVA anyway?), etc. That doesn't mean it's inherently bad or gets in the way.

Now world 5--THAT'S a challenge. Man, you gotta know what you're doing there, and act fast.

>Remember, Daikatana sold out on its first day too.

Yeah, but I wonder how many of those were returned? I think they sold through like 40-50,000 units total.

I wonder how many copies of B&W will be returned? I know safedisc2 protection will be responsible for a few for sure. But I wonder if the casual, buy one or two games a year player will "get into" it or not? It's so hard to tell.

B&W is the sort of game I would think my sister or mom deserves to sit down and fiddle with. It teaches you how to play, it's intuitive about action-reaction, and it's "graspable" for non-hardcore gamers I'd think. I mean, come on, the "arrange the musical stones" and "make 9 trees the same" puzzle nature of the silver scroll quests should appeal to that set. The whole tamagochi aspect of the critter too.

The only thing that bothers me is that they came up with some real "how can we best annoy the player" quests in there too. Can YOU find all the sheep? I thought not. :-) Following the old mystic guy was obnoxious, but doable.

Well my local EB currently has a waiting list of about 150 people or so. I am sure they will be sold out on the first day.

"B&W is the sort of game I would think my sister or mom deserves to sit down and fiddle with. It teaches you how to play, it's intuitive about action-reaction, and it's "graspable" for non-hardcore gamers I'd think."

I agree, but I just don't think it has that kind of mainstream appeal that Rollercoaster Tycoon and The Sims have. Non gamers grasp what those games are about immediately. In B&W you're a god, you have worshippers, this creature, and so on. It's just not quite the same.

I think the game will sell really well. I just don't think it's going achieve blockbuster status like The Sims or a Blizzard game.

GREG: "Since we posted our "knee jerk quickie review" (to quote an earlier posting) last Friday,"

Woah! Hey, sorry about that Greg, that was clumsy of me. I was referencing Steve's earlier post about reviews appearing last week being knee jerk. I hadn't actually read your review until more recently and I regret impugning it.

But I don't recall B&W being pitched as an RPG. Though I agree that expectations are playing a big role in the backlash, I'm not sure what I was expecting exactly.

Basically, I kind of wish the villagers had more personality and I wish the strategic gameplay was less of a chore. I'm not fond of any of the puzzles and I loathe mission three with a passion I've rarely felt for any game. I've started over again and I'm finding more methodic play more rewarding.

This time my creature ate the piper (much to my shock) and a drowning person on the first level and I enjoyed the surprise. He's a bad egg, but he'll come around. I'm quick with the slap. My "parenting" style with Hub-Bub the Tiger is MUCH different than the way I treat my daughter.

I love the gesture system.
But I'm a victim of Safedisc2.
Also, is anyone else experiencing a dramatic increase in crashes on Level 2 only?

"It's Populous crossed with Pokemon."
I like this line a great deal.

-Andrew
PS: The gesture system is great. I'm a believer now.

I really don't think this is a game the mainstream will like at all. But, they may buy it out of sheer curiosity.

The gameplay is too "gamey" and obscure in places. The controls are too non-intuitive, some of the puzzles are confounding, etc.,

Basically the game is just not enough of a sandbox for the casual crowd (the crowd that doesn't like "rules") and too open-ended for the basic game crowd (the crowd that likes "rules").

-Andrew

You guys definitely have my attention. I've been thinking about getting this game, and you guys are making me think about it more seriously. The guestures aspect is intriguing. I think I get what they were going for, though. I know that some people (Wumpus) really hate it, but it seems to me that they were trying to make more involved. I think I like that. My interest is piqued. I just might have to pick this one up before too long.

"I know that some people (Wumpus) really hate it, but it seems to me that they were trying to make more involved."

It's not that I hate it; it's just evidence of a larger problem with the game: excessive micromanagement.

Gestures is merely the tip of the iceberg. Another example of this is on mission 3-- that respawning wood miracle near the waterfall. Why does the player have to zoom back and forth to the waterfall every 60 stinkin' seconds when he/she wants to use that miracle-- which is critical to completing the level? Good god! How is that fun??

Along those same lines, notice the many complaints about how the worshippers have to be fed manually. More busy work for the player! Would it kill 'em to get their own food?

What I don't understand is how some people defend the gestures as integral to the gameplay, then blithely offer up the "zoom to the temple" as an alternative-- completely defeating their own argument in the process. If, as Steve maintains, gestures are required for "spell difficulty" (eg, tracing a pentagram is more complex than tracing the letter "W").. then why was this alternative even offered? It doesn't make sense. At all.

And if you're going to offer that kind of half-hearted "zoom to temple" shortcut, why not go all the way and just make life easier for the player with a keyboard shortcut for the spells?

Answer: the game actually ENCOURAGES and DEMANDS repetitive busy work from the player. It's part of the design. Sheesh. I'll just take up knitting, thanks!

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

Just the same -- doesn't having to perform the guestures make you feel more involved? I'd think it would. It would make sense to me if the designers said "We're trying to make it feel like you are, actually, a god, not just someone playing a game." It makes sense to me that if I were a god, or, for that matter, just a lowly wizard, I might have to make a guesture or two to create these miracles. I can accept that. I think I even like the idea.

I agree on the whole "feeding the villagers" thing, though. That does seem more than a little aggravating. Still, most people that bought the game seem to think that, all in all, it's worth having. Almost everyone has something negative to say about it, but is very willing to defend another aspect of the game. So, it seems like there's something for (almost) everyone to like.

What do you think, Mark? Is it worth the money to you? (Or anyone else, but most of you have already made your opinions pretty clear.)

"And if you're going to offer that kind of half-hearted "zoom to temple" shortcut, why not go all the way and just make life easier for the player with a keyboard shortcut for the spells?"

Come on Wumpus, the zoom to temple has a lot more uses than just spell grabbing for the clumsy. It also allows easy access to the temple itself (yes, I know, there are keyboard shortcuts for that too) and I personally use it mostly just to zip back to town.

As for Michael's question... yeah, but I'm a collector. Black & White is one of those games I just kind of have to have. I'm annoyed with it a large part of each day, but I do keep playing it daily. What does that say about the gameplay?

-Andrew
PS: Gamecopyworld has the -nocd patch. Safedisc incompatible CD-ROM owners rejoice.

The issue of the wood dispenser was an easy solve... CTRL-1 on the dispenser, CTRL-2 on my workshop. Zip, zip, zip.

I think the best solution they could have had was to "borrow" the spell casting hotkey system from Sacrifice. Press CTRL-SHIFT+key to bind the last miracle cast to that key. That would have made everyone happy, and still meant you had to doodle it at least once. Still, I think it adds a certain charm to the game, since you actually have to put effort into "casting" a spell and not just whack a key. It adds flavor.

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Quote:

Still, I think it adds a certain charm to the game, since you actually have to put effort into "casting" a spell and not just whack a key. It adds flavor.

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I just wanted to add that the -nocd patch available at GameCopyWorld is a godsend to anyone, like me, who suffered horrendous Safedisk2.0 problems.

The game loads immediately (used to take upwards of 90 seconds here). It doesn't hang or crash (did so roughly 40% of the time). And the game hasn't crashed once since I started using it.

Seriously, EA should offer this patch on their homepage and Safedisk should be ashamed of themselves.

-Andrew
PS: I understand the need for copy protection in this day and age but no game should be rendered remotely unplayable to paying customers for the sake of anti-piracy.

Sheesh, I was planning on building a new machine at the end of the summer and it's beginning to look like I'll have to put my venerable Toshiba 32x from my old machine in it. (If I didn't read message boards I wouldn't even know that this kind of problem even exists.) Do DVD drives choke on Safedisked CDs as well?

For all its reported problems Al, I must admit, this is the very first game to choke on my TrueX. And I play a lot of games....

Andrew

"And I play a lot of games.... "

Hmm. Safedisc v2 is pretty common. Undying, Red Alert 2.. I would expect it to become even more common, as it's very effective. Those "readable but unwritable by 90% of CD-Rs" sectors are a bitch.

I would ditch that TrueX drive, though. I had the 40x and it was the biggest PITA component I've ever owned. Seriously. Nothing else even comes close to that drive for hassle. It wouldn't read half the stuff I put in it, and eventually just died completely.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

I had a Creative CD-R and it really choked on a lot of games. I ended up taking it out. Even when a game would play it would often have problems when accessing the CD during games. The PC game industry really is their own worst enemy at times.

I had something very similar happen to me when I first loaded up Zeus. Every other game I own works great on my Toshiba DVD, but Zeus refused to run. After posting on the official Impressions Zeus forum, one of the developers told me that I had to upgrade my BIOS to work with the security on the CD. I tried to flash my BIOS, but it ended up failing and, well, long story short I had to reinstall Win 98 and everything else I owned. On the bright side, Zeus worked after the reinstall of Win98, so I think it was a software problem and not the BIOS of my DVD as Impressions seemed to think.

I recently bought a TDK CD burner, so I'm hoping either that or the good old DVD player will let me play B&W (whenever I finish Tactics and finish my mandatry 3 play days of Kohan) without a Safedisk problem.

I purposely keep my Toshiba 32x CD-ROM in my machine to avoid these sort of problems. I think I've had it since about 1997 or so (it was the best-rated drive of its time) and I dread the day it finally fails.

I am keeping my old 24X DVD rom drive for that exact same reason. It is now 2 years old or so and luckily it is still running.

I have a 50X CD-ROM and have never had any trouble with Safedisk problems. Maybe I'm just lucky...Nevertheless, I haven't had the problems that a lot of you complain of. Now, copying CDs is another story...

"(I'm reviewing the game, so I feel compelled to explore both sides as much as possible"
Yhea right we all know you are just the type of person who is secretly a mad scientist or evil warlord. Just give up this 'im reviewing it' guise!

I too am feeling a bit out of touch with the gamming comunity latley. With the exception of Theif 2 (acuired as a xmas gift) i havent bought a game in a year now. A combination of personal reasons affected this but mostly ive been unimpressed with 2000's line up. Ive been a hardcore strategy (RTS favoring) gamer scin i was 9 (16 now) and the rash of me-too's and 3D-angelfests really turned me off. Now just as i start to need my severly limited funds in other areas 2 titles ive been waiting for for years (Khoan and BW) come out back to back with 2 others ive been waitng for scine thier genre defining prequels came out eons ago (WC3 and Emperor) finaly seem on the horizion. It also seems there are a number of other solid games floating around that would get my attention in slower times.

When i get back from my comppetion on the 25 im gonna have more time on my hands so ill have to make a descion by then. You guys are suposed to make it easier for me!! From the review and the demo i decdied the Kohan is a good soild game that offers almost garunteed enjoyment but in the past few hours, reading this thread its become obvious that Black and White will redefine my existance ironicly either good or badly.(Snif Snif underling intent:) And there is no demo to decide which!!

To praphrase an ancient gamming proverb "Who should all my base are belong to?"
ShiningOne

So I finally had some time this weekend to sit down with Black and White and give it some serious play time. I'll admit that I'm hooked, despite the terrible interface.

Actually, it isn't the gesture stuff that's bothering me; it's the camera control that's driving me crazy. I've switched over to using WASD, with Q and E for rotate. Even so, I keep wishing that I had mouse-scroll. Instead, I have to resort to silly keyboard tricks. Essentially, B&W plays like an RTS but without the interface conventions that I've come to expect. I call it KQ8 syndrome, after KQ8 which played like a 3rd person action game with an adventure game interface.

Kudos to Lionhead for doing something different and adding a high level of detail. Shame on them for making the interface harder than it needs to be. Why can't I have a status bar at the top of the screen listing resource levels, or at least villager desires? I bet the computer players don't need to physically look at the village store to get that information, so why should we have to?

Nonetheless, B&W has been a curiously refreshing experience so far. Maybe I've been expecting too much from it. For a god game, it seems like I certainly have to do a lot of RTS-style micromanagement.

- Alan