"Okay, I'm tired of Quake III. I don't really like the weapons. They're too..." Trevor searches for a word. He finds one. "Consistent," he says....

Comments?

Hell, Q3 was old before it was released. Every single weapon has been in an id game (or mission pack) before. And none of them have alt-fire modes.

"And none of them have alt-fire modes."

It is weird playing a game where the right click doesn't do anything. :)

There's actually a Q3 mod that adds weapons with alt fire modes. It was fairly popular here back when we were playing Q3.

-Tom

Not having an alternate fire mode in Q3 is just stubborness spilling over into stupidity. id needs to swallow their pride and admit that Epic got it right with the right click fire modes, just like newer RTS games need to adopt the interface refinements of the previous generation.

I bought Q3A in order to obtain the engine to drive the mods. Hopefully Doom3 will turn the trend around, but Q3A was just more proof to me that id makes engines, not games. Vanilla deathmatch? Yawn. CTF is OK, but needs work. The bots are horrible compared to UT. A command line interface? As Bill the Cat used to say, "Ack. Pfft." While the graphics can be sweet, the hardcore turn it all off and play 640x480 to worship the framerate god.

With Counter-strike and UT on the market, why bother? These days, I mostly play UT Infiltration, and have uninstalled Q3A. So far, the id fanboy sites all give Q3TA good ratings, and the rest of the sites (with broader perspectives on gaming) say it isn't worth $30. I think I will pass.

Counter-strike is, by far, the best online FPS game I have EVER played. Bar none. Nothing else even comes close.

If you haven't tried CS, slap yourself. Now start downloading it.

And just for the record, my time playing FPS games online goes way way back. I once played John Romero in a 1-on-1 DOOM match on the Dallas DWANGO modem hub circa 1994. I lost, horribly. Painfully even. Don't let my deceptively youthful appearance fool you.

Getting back to the topic, yes, Q3 has been kind of a waste of time. TA helps a bit, but I doubt some new uber-mod is going to come out and change everything at this point. It's done. The baton has been handed off-- to Valve.

UT makes some pretensions to the throne-- and it does beat Q3 in almost every respect. But a quick look at the gamespy stats will tell you that 90% of the online community is running under a Valve engine. So the competition, such as it is, is for a silver medal. Who will be the second most popular engine?

For example, Epic just got the bright idea to add skeletal animation to their engine in this latest patch. Guess what guys? Valve has had that for the last TWO YEARS.

"UT makes some pretensions to the throne-- and it does beat Q3 in almost every respect. But a quick look at the gamespy stats will tell you that 90% of the online community is running under a Valve engine. So the competition, such as it is, is for a silver medal. Who will be the second most popular engine?"

It's getting to be more and more an engine licensing business. Monolith has been smart to aggressively pursue this line of business. Better to license your engine to Third Law and GOD and take a handful of cash instead of bearing the entire cost of developing a game like KISS Psycho Circus and seeing it flop at the box office.

This is a bit off-topic, but has anyone played Gunman? I've reading that it's A) Awful, little better than a free mod, and B) Lots of fun. What's the verdict?

"But a quick look at the gamespy stats will tell you that 90% of the online community is running under a Valve engine."

I presume you're just engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but it's not literally 90%, is it?

-Tom

"These days, I mostly play UT Infiltration,"

Infiltration really is good, isn't it? We get our realistic weapons fix with Rogue Spear, but Infiltration was pretty popular over here for a while.

"So far, the id fanboy sites all give Q3TA good ratings, and the rest of the sites (with broader perspectives on gaming) say it isn't worth $30. I think I will pass."

Q3TA really is a slap in the face. It's all mod stuff, but with a price tag. Way back when, Carmack introduced the idea of open architecture. Now id wants to charge $30 for a mod in a box? Un-fucking-believable.

-Tom

"West Wing" is better than Q3TA. The weapons are better and everything. My wife says so.

-Amanpour

I wouldn't consider Infiltration a substitute for Rogue Spear, I like them both for different reasons. I think of RS as total realism, while Infiltration is more like Hollywood realism. Depending on the settings you choose, you can respawn, leap tall buildings, etc.. That isn't going to happen in RS, but RS has a much higher tension level because you are always at risk of death or failure. Playing team deathmatch on the Morpheus level (or anything with the low gravity mutator) with Infiltration weapons is about as close as we can get to The Matrix's combat scenes.

A slap in the face is a good way to describe Q3TA. It really is all of the stuff that should have been in the box LAST Christmas, and I don't want to pay $80 total for the entire game. Heck, UT came free with my Voodoo 3. I doubt it is a coincidence that Epic just released the new UT Bonus Pack. Should we call it a slap back?

Finally, West Wing may or may not be better than Q3A, but they both are gloomy and involve a lot of running around. How many times will they use a shot of two people holding a conversation while walking at high speed through the poorly lit White House? Why are all of the lights those flush-mounted things in the ceiling? I'm waiting for them to run into someone, or have someone cut in between them and the camera. Doesn't anyone in there read or write, and want better light?

Hmm...looks like there's a lot of Q3A hate here. I found one of Tom's earliest comments in the original article to be the most insightful. When he noted that each weapon has different load times, effects, usefulness in Q3A and how it brought strategy to the game and no one cared about that, it shows the different way people enjoy games. UT allows you to be good with limited skills. Q3A simply does not. If you can't be reasonably precise (or can't be bothered to get better), you can't appreciate the more balanced play of Q3A.

If you look at all the alt-fire modes in UT, they really don't add much to the game besides more one-hit kills. Where's the fun in that? I recently played a lot of UT with a friend who wasn't very good, and his most insightful comment was that everytime he respawned he felt like he was dead immediately. With the outrageous damage each weapon does in UT, it's easy to see why he felt that way. Not to mention the lack of extra health you get in Q3A on respawn which will always keep you from getting killed cheaply by one rocket.

It should also be noted that while Epic keeps putting out these bonus packs, it's almost impossible to find a place to play them. Most players don't have them, so servers rarely run them. With Team Arena, you may get some modes that are basically mods in another form, but by selling them in a box for $30, id is guaranteeing that you'll get plenty of servers to play on.

It seems like most people I talk to that enjoy UT weren't playing DOOM and Duke over a modem or Quake 1 or 2 online too much. They don't understand the balance issues. They just want to see things go boom. More power to you... it doesn't hold my interest. Playing Q3A gives you a skill, much like arcade games of old. I like that. It's a fundamental change in how people play games that's at the root though. I know a couple names on this board (Hi Supertanker!), and you have probably heard me say this before. Many gamers want to buy a "ride game" now, not a game of skill. It's all about completion and not about the play. Q3A is about the play, not the goal, and that's what I think a lot of people don't enjoy or understand.

"I presume you're just engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but it's not literally 90%, is it? "

Taken from GameSpy.com's home page at 2:14 pm EST today.

Half Life 27169
Unreal Tournament 3525
Quake 3: Arena 3270
Starsiege TRIBES 2355
Quake II 1164

You tell me how much hyperbole I'm engaging in.

And to Dave Long-- Counter-Strike takes a heck of a lot more skill than the "Mortal Kombat"-ish Quake 3. It's a freakin' arcade game-- and not a particularly enjoyable arcade game at that.

Like I said. If you haven't tried Counter-Strike, you're only cheating yourself out of the best online FPS game ever made.

"If you look at all the alt-fire modes in UT, they really don't add much to the game besides more one-hit kills. Where's the fun in that?"

Er, I think the alternate fire modes add quite a bit with some weapons. Forgive me for not remembering the weapon names, but bouncing a shells around a corner is a nice way to surprise someone. I also like to turn the frisbees into explosives. The frisbee that richochets is a nice weapon, but sometimes you don't want it bouncing back at you and it's faster to do alternate mode fire rather than switch weapons.

I think Q3 might be more popular with people who are extremely hardcore FPS multiplayers. UT is certainly a more complete and enjoyable game otherwise.

"You tell me how much hyperbole I'm engaging in."

Umm, that's more math than I'm comfortable with, but here goes...

By my count, 78% of the people are playing a Half Life based game. So your 90% figure is inflated with 12% hyperbole. :)

I knew CStrike and HL mods were popular, but I had no idea it was that overwhelming a majority!

-Tom

"UT allows you to be good with limited skills. Q3A simply does not."

Or, put another way, casual gamers can play UT competitively. Casual gamers cannot play Q3 competitively. There's nothing judgemental in this observation. It's a simple fact that Q3 is incredibly frustrating if you're not very good at it.

"If you look at all the alt-fire modes in UT, they really don't add much to the game besides more one-hit kills."

Pshaw, David. You should know better than that!

Alt-fire is a crucial part of UT and it's got nothing to do with one-hit kills. I suspect you're playing in Hardcore mode (the default, I believe) that increases damage by 50%? Of course you're going to get a lot of one-hit kills. Turn it down to Classic mode and savor the variety of the weapons.

"With the outrageous damage each weapon does in UT, it's easy to see why he felt that way. Not to mention the lack of extra health you get in Q3A on respawn which will always keep you from getting killed cheaply by one rocket."

The beauty of UT is that everything's configurable. Stop playing Hardcore mode. Take out the health powerups. Try the NUIT mod for pure skill matches.

"With Team Arena, you may get some modes that are basically mods in another form, but by selling them in a box for $30, id is guaranteeing that you'll get plenty of servers to play on."

It costs me $30 to guarantee there are servers I can play on? No thanks. The Team Arena expansion is an abomination to the very business model id founded.

"Many gamers want to buy a "ride game" now, not a game of skill. It's all about completion and not about the play. Q3A is about the play, not the goal, and that's what I think a lot of people don't enjoy or understand."

Fair enough. But for me personally, I don't want to develop my FPS skills as if it were a sport. I admit I'm not in this for the learning curve. I'm in it for the (relatively) immediate gratification.

I think that's true of most FPS players and the conventional wisdom is that UT's approach is a clear winner. It certainly beat Q3 in terms of popularity (sales) and critical acclaim.

I appreciate your post, David, for pointing out some important differences between the two. I infinitely prefer these discussion to camps of fanboys slugging it out. :)

-Tom

"I knew CStrike and HL mods were popular, but I had no idea it was that overwhelming a majority!"

And who here makes a living writing commentary about PC gaming? Shame on you Mr. Chick! That's like admitting you've never played Diablo! :)

I vote the next Shoot Club is counter-strike only. Do you have high-speed internet connectivity for all the computers? If so, you can join a public server. If not, you'll have to set up a private c-s server, which won't be all that fun with only 4 players. CS isn't really enjoyable until you get to at least 6 players per side.

That's why the counter-strike servers are ALWAYS full, btw... fantastic team game. I'll say it again-- but only because it bears repeating-- counter-strike is the best online FPS game I've ever played. By far.

"I vote the next Shoot Club is counter-strike only. Do you have high-speed internet connectivity for all the computers? If so, you can join a public server."

Oh, I've played a lot of Half Life and its mods. Counter-Strike and Action Half Life were big favorites over here. The problem is, each computer needs its own CD key for us all to connect to a server, so we played a lot of 2v2 games on the four computers over here.

-Tom

"If you look at all the alt-fire modes in UT, they really don't add much to the game besides more one-hit kills. Where's the fun in that? "

I think this sums up the difference between an old school Quake player and me (not that I'm not old or haven't played Quake). My personal preference is one shot, one kill. This is why I usually play realistic weapon mods like CS or Infiltration. If you are out of position, or I get the drop on you, I should be able to kill you. It shouldn't depend on whether I got to the railgun before I found you, or whether you happend to waltz into a rocket; a well-placed pistol shot should do the job. I found the "machine gun" in Q3A to be particularly repulsive in this respect. Does it actually damage things?

I think this was also a core issue in the screaming over rocket launcher changes in Q2. People got used to RLs dominating the field, giving the one shot kill. When Q2 made them easy to dodge, restoring some parity to the other, weaker weapons, people freaked out and made mods to restore the dominance of their favorite one shot kill weapon. I think that is also why people play Rocket Arena. Does anyone in RA start by drawing the shotgun, or do they immediately pull the RL or Rail?

I sometimes like to play a little Q3, but I will inevitably find myself chasing someone, blazing away with the machinegun while they ignore me and run for a better weapon. Contrast that with Infiltration, where you can start with an MP5/40 and clear a hallway out of the box (in fact, I capped 5 bunched-up bots in a hallway with one long burst just the other night).

Oh, and Hi, Dave! :)

"Oh, I've played a lot of Half Life and its mods. Counter-Strike and Action Half Life were big favorites over here. The problem is, each computer needs its own CD key for us all to connect to a server, so we played a lot of 2v2 games on the four computers over here. "

That's encouraging, but I don't think you can appreciate Counter-Strike with 2vs2. Life really starts with 4vs4 and I personally won't even join a server with less than 12 players.

I guess what I'm saying here is that you guys haven't really experienced Counter-Strike until you play at least a 6vs6 match. All four of the shoot club "victims" could play on the same team against faceless internet opponents. Now that sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me..

Pick up some cheap copies of HL: CS and get some extra keys (I've seen it for $19.99 minus $10 rebate at some places). I'm sure Mark will let you borrow his, too. ;)

There's a reason why the vast majority of people playing an online game are playing counter-strike. Just visit the gamespy stats page if you don't believe me.

http://www.gamespy.com/stats/index.shtm

Jeff "wumpus Atwood
http://www.gamebasement.com

"UT allows you to be good with limited skills. Q3A simply does not."

I would have to argue with this. I am a gamer of fairly limited skills but found after a short time that Q3TA was more...how you say in this country?...exploitable than UT. I was able to figure out sly ways to beat more skilled gamers all too quickly, which took some of the fun out of the game for me. I felt my success was due to a deficiency in the game, and not to any proficiency on my part.

Q3A itself was even more exploitable, as simply finding the shotgun was all it really took to dominate that game. UT is a constant challenge, though, which is why it keeps me coming back. I found that playing Q3A was almost like playing DOOM with cheats on, so quick did my interest wane.

-Amanpour

"I found that playing Q3A was almost like playing DOOM with cheats on, so quick did my interest wane."

For me Q3 came so quickly on the heels of UT that it was doubly hard to enjoy it. I had loads of fun playing UT against bots. It felt like work playing Q3 against bots in comparison.

With UT it's so easy to configure the game too. Sometimes I'd just dial the speed way down and get a nice John Woo movie feel to the games.

Shoot, DaveLong couldn't have said it better. I was thinking about the games/things I like and they are all blasted "skill" games. Grand Prix Legends. Quake3. PGAChamp2k. Then I think further and realize how lousy I am at all of them. Time for some CloseCombat against the computer to raise my spirits.