What a gigantic mistake. I tried the demo of Ops Flashpoint yesterday, and spent all afternoon/evening playing it. The frame rates were spotty here and there, but otherwise it was a blast. I will definitely be picking this up. But then, since I had enjoyed this so much, I thought WW2OL might be similarly fun (I realize the basic premise is totally different, but the play styles are obviously similar). I knew about the pretty much beta release, but I couldnt' resist. And of course I do want to support the industry.

I spent 4 hours tonight watching a slide show. My epilepsy is really acting up now. Its so frustrating because if the game ran smooth it would have a chance. But they've really hamstrung themselves. The instructional booklet is garbage (not telling you how to the play the game in a comprehensive manner). And the chop is so bad, you have no idea whether your latest action didn't work or you are just frozen for a minute or two.

A thing you don't read on their message board: the load times are enormous. 5 minutes plus on my 600mhz, 128 ram, with cable modem just to get to the setup screen. Add five to ten more to load up your soldier. It was truly frustrating. I just played a truck for 40 irratating minutes. I couldn't find the rear view to back up to an antitank gun so I could tow it. Whoever was manning the gun must have thought I was deranged because I kept smashing into him without ever really helping him. Ugh. I won't even mention the spawn camping (really, really annoying when it takes 15 minutes to get back in the game).

Um, my point here is: I love the idea of WW2OL, all those human opponents and teammates, but this beta is going to last a long time. Flashpoint isn't quite as ambitious, but it is so much more playable, and the AI seems to be top notch (bastards!). I really can't wait for the release.

My last tidbit, I would love to just take WW2OL off my harddrive for a couple of months, and then go back, but I'm afraid of how much MORE I'll have to d/l in patches by then.

-Rob

ps. Doug Glanville plays for the Phillies. Jerry Glanville was a loud mouthed football coach turned analyst.

Again, Operation Flashpoint is aweomse... I say it on usenet and every messageboard i go on! the only drawback of the game is its more than demanding requirements (id reccomend at least a 800 p3 equiv with a v5 or geforce 2 card and 256 ram). With a 1.2 gig amd and 320 mb ram and a v5, this game runs smooth and it is GREAT! also multiplayer in op flashpoint (or a workable version) wont be released until the US release, which is set for early september; but the UK english version comes out later this June (mainly single player version). I preordered it from the UK! Yeah, I cant wait for this gmae, it blows away Countersrtike, R6 and DFLW in my book.

Ive read from a few ww2online fan ppl thinking that once ww2online gets ironed out (they give it three months at tops), it could be great. But the release of this game with this many bugs, and inability to even GET to play the game is horrendous. They could have at least included a credible solo practice mode...which is as well broken they say.

Doug Glanville used to play for the Cubs! Wouldn't it be cool to group with your favorite sportstars and celebrities when you play your games? I'd love to play EQ with Jodie Foster !!!

Where'd that come from...

etc

I've been confused about this point:

Mtkafka said,
"in op flashpoint (or a workable version) wont be released until the US release, which is set for early september; but the UK english version comes out later this June (mainly single player version). I preordered it from the UK! "

If what you're saying is true (and I don't doubt you, its just that their website isn't very informative), then I think I have to pre-order it too. It really is that good. But, will you have to buy the US version to get multiplay in September?

I've been playing some of the demo mods (what a concept), and they are great too. I played one last night. It was a night mission, and I was commanding a 10 man squad. I had no idea how to do that, so they pretty much just sat around yapping at me. I was totally engrossed with my Heckler&Koch rifle, WITH silencer, and my UV goggles. I couldn't believe we could access this stuff with just the demo! It was fun until I was overrun and shot to death. Darn.

Flashpoint will be a damn fun game.

I think its awesome that Schilling is a big gamer. Personally, I would most like to play online with Larry Bird. Maybe when the XBox or PS2 really do an online NBA league, I can team up with the Legend and win the 17th Celtic Championship (unless of course we win it all next year- go Paul Pierce!). What can I say? I bleed Green.

-Rob

"Rob and Larry Bird One-on-One" -- coming to you soon from EA ;)

There will be a free update to the European version that incorporates the later U.S. release multiplayer aspects.

Um... I could never actually play AGAINST Larry. I am hard wired to be on his side always.

Yep. I am pre-ordering the Flash tonight.

-Rob

Flashpoint demo runs okay on my 450 PII, 256 megs RAM and GeForce "1". I'm fine during combat sequences it's only driving the jeep around the heavily textured terrain that gives a bit of bogdown, but you can adjust the graphic quality a bit if necessary.

I think it's supposed to support dedicated servers in its U.S. incarnation, but maybe I'm confusing it with Ghost Recon. :)

If either or both prove to be my impetus to finally upgrade, so much the better. :)

"Um... I could never actually play AGAINST Larry. "

Oh! Okay... then how about "Dr. J and Larry & Rob One-on-Two"? :)

(Sorry, my inner tropic drifter is struggling to get out--I try to contain him, but sometimes he gets an appendage out.)

That was a pretty good EA game, iirc. Dr J vs Larry Bird... AHh the good ole days of Electronic Arts. Come to think of it, Electronic Arts was a great publisher.

another great EA game from that era was Stuart Smith's Adventure Construction Set. One of the first cRPG games to come with an editor... pretty neato!

etc

Theres one demo mission (actually a fe) that resemeble the last action sequence in Saving Prvate Ryan. I even put the mines to use like in the movie and had the tanks attack me relentelesly like Jaws (like in SPR!). Whats great about op Flashpoint is it is doesnt completely feel like an FPS, but moreso a Flight Sim.

Op Flashpoint also plays well as a squad game too (once you get used to it). And it is the game that convinced me to upgrade, like Geo I had a p2450 previously...similar to my upgrade for Thief and Half Life when I upgraded from a p166 to p450... only other game that almost made me upgrade was Sacrifice and B & W (both which I won froma p2 450 but werent exacly smooth but playable etc). I expect a 1.2 to last me the same amount as my pw450 hopefully...

etc

Yeah, I'm lookin' to upgrade soon -- from my current 450 to about 900, probably, because that seems to be the best value I can find, for speed vs. cost.

I may pick up a new video card, too, but don't want to spend a ton. I'vegot a Voodoo 3 right now, and am looking to get something good for about $100. Any recommendations?

You can't go wrong with a GeForce 2 MX or even a GeForce 2 GTS. The other mainstream choice is the ATI Radeon. If you are a bit daring you might want to try a Kyro 2 however if you want to keep it for a long time the lack of T&L will probably start really hurting it in 6 months or so. Long term the GF2 or Radeon is your best bet.

-- Xaroc

Ya know, I finally played WWII Online Friday and Sunday. On the work hook up and on my home dialup, it ran fine--no noticeable lag, decent framerates. Load times suck, but the generally running was ok. The game has so many holes and is so unfinished in so many ways--yet I had an absolute blast last night in my three hours or so of gameplay.

How can this be? :-) The flaws in this title are legion--interface design, missing features, graphic issues, bugs, design choices--but when you get in there and form up with a few guys to defend a base, or clear the ridge of that tank, or recapture your base from an enemy assault, it's phenomenally fun.

I just wonder what Cornered Rat was smoking when they made some of their decisions:

Since no one has yet built a massively multiplayer game that can run everyone on one server/shard, they thought they could? Uh huh. Now they have a handful of servers, and a promise to eventually bring them together. Right.

Different interfaces for infantry, tanks, and airplanes? Requiring a joystick for the latter two but mouse and keyboard for the former? A single interface across multiple platforms is the way to go, I would think.

No way to tell how much or what type ammo you have? No grenades or satchel charges? No ammo replenishment? Most of this stuff is "in the works," but releasing a shooter-like game missing such basic shooter ingredients as these? Ack.

Tanks tend to flip over if you look at them cross wise.

You're in a war, where communicating with other guys is essential, yet your map has no identifying marks or labels, no grid squares, and there's no way to tell someone not right next to you where you are so you can coordinate actions.

No machineguns, except on tanks. No artillery, no mortars. Hmm, something like 70% or more of all WWII casualties were caused by artillery; most of the rest by machine guns.

A half-scale world, in real time? It takes friggin' forever to go anywhere, and most of the time you'd think WWII was fought by six guys in widely-spaced episodes, because the world is usually empty.

Still, I loved playing in it (I was a British SMG guy). It's fun. People work together--largely because if you go off on your own, particularly as an infantryman, you'll die of boredom very soon. I worked as a team to take out German infantry, retook a base, and died assaulting a tank (too bad we only had our pistols and SMGs and rifles; maybe one day we'll get grenades?). Hitting the deck when airplanes buzzed overhead. Cool stuff.

I couldn't recommend the game to anyone--yet--but I really enjoy it. Weird, huh?

I wasn't kidding when I said it was good when it worked and has huge bags of potential. I think Gordon probably agrees with me considering he and I had quite the air duel in the beta. =)

I don't envy the guys reviewing this one.

--Dave

I was just on this afternoon and it was horrid, which goes to show how Janus-like this beast is. I tried a tank, which is frustrating with only one person commanding. Lag, lag lag. Jerky and choppy. Locked up and died. Ack.

I've been fiddling with WW2OL all weekend. I don't know if they just had a bad weekend or if it's been like this all along, but this game is *definitely* not ready for launch in its current state.

-Tom

I have become an Operation Flashpoint zealot/convert. WW2OL doesn't even feature on my radar horizon. :-)

Just an FYI with WWII Online. Learn how to drive a tank or fly a plane. The soldiering is definitely the least developed portion of the game right now. You are the only one that can take a capture point as a grunt, but you're also super expendable. If you learn how to drive and shoot in a tank, you'll have a lot more fun in the long term. My best moments were found during tank battles.

On one particular occasion, I was tracking a Ju87 and firing on the aircraft with the machine gun. I had definitely scored a hit or two but this guy is at about 100 feet and coming right at me. I was already immobilized from a shot to the right side of my Char (this happened during a long town defense). Nowhere to run...

But while squeezing the trigger for the machine gun I accidentally pulled the trigger on the main gun. BOOM... WHAP... SMASH! Down went the German in a blaze of fire. I almost jumped out of my seat elated at my good fortune! I held on for another 15 minutes and knocked out two more Panzers before succumbing to a heavy assault from three sides. But man oh man, the satisfaction I got from imagining the look on that pilot's face was priceless. =)

The thing that's hard to understand and underestimate with this game is the human factor. You're out there with ALL humans, all the time. It's a very different feeling fighting against real people in this game when we haven't really gotten anything like it on the net before.

This was just one single moment among many that endeared the game to me during the beta. The nice thing back then was that they weren't dealing with what they are now, the massive amounts of people. It's pretty obvious what that has wrought upon the game world.

I don't think anyone should seriously consider playing the game in its current state without the understanding that frustration may run extremely high. But at the end of the day, the game is just oh so right in so many ways. If only they have the time and money to get it working, and the fan base to stick with it until it does. If they don't, I don't think anyone can blame the fans for letting it go because to release it as it exists now certainly doesn't instill a lot of good will among gamers.

--Dave

As I remember EverQuest and Ultima Online had problems initially. Anyone familiar with all three (EQ, UO and WW2O)? How bad is WW2 comparitively?

-Andrew

"I have become an Operation Flashpoint zealot/convert. "

Yeah, its a great game er demo... What is great about the game is the AI... its not perfect but its pretty damn good when compared to other fps games. Like if I'm sniping the enemy AI, especially NATO soldiers, they will run and cover and use stealth mode to outflank me. I was sniping in the Dragunov fan made mission, and moments later i saw a squad of soldiers outflank my position and toss a grenade at me... they were crawling between trees .. evading my sight... awesome. They came from over 600 meters to sneak within 100 meters of me. astounding! line of sight and positioning is very important in this game, much moreso than any other tactical combat fps game i've played, imo.

anyway, if they made an mmfps using Operation Flashpoint I'd die a happy man.

etc

I played and reviewed EQ and UO. Both had problems, but but they were almost entirely technical. WWII Online has tech problems, and severe game design, programming, and product completion (for lack of a better term) issues. They are fixing stuff in increments, but it's a mess, really--"not ready for prime time" isn't the half of it.

Is if fun? Can be, but only if you're like me and got a free copy and play with a full understanding that this is like watching a train wreck in progress. The entire metagame is AWOL, and the details of playing each of the components (infantry, armor, air) need a lot of work.

YES, I have to agree with everything Dave Long and Bob Mayer have said. I managed to get online this last weekend and agree with all the problems you guys mentioned, but was engrossed anyway.

I do have to review it... at first I thought it was going to be easy, just basically explain everything that doesn't work and ding it with a low score. But after applying the patches and playing...hoo boy, how do you explain it?

I tried both infantry and an Me109. The plane sucked - when I got low I suffered choppiness when strafing, which is no fun at all. I couldn't see anything but buildings, and since there are few aids to identifying objects, it's hard to spot things - some argue this is realistic, but it's also true that the resolution and screen limitations make it hard to see targets. But realism is one of those things you sort of have to be willing to dump in some places for playability. Speaking of realism, there are some wacky tactics players have devised, like loading up trucks (which can really haul ass!) and zooming through a combat zone to dump them off at an enemy base (when I saw that I said WTF? Is this Command & Conquer? :).

Tanks and infantry, on the other hand, are manageable. Performance is acceptable even on my shitty Southwestern Bell 26.4 dial-up connection, which is far below the box-listed requirement of 56k. So that tells me the core network code has some good stuff in it, but the server capacity is another issue.

Still, I can't recommend purchase to anyone without broadband and a lot of patience. Boxed edition is clearly not working and getting it to work requires huge patches. Lots of stuff mentioned on the box is missing (sea battles?). And I had a hell of a time trying to survive as infantry with all those tanks prowling around. My kingdom for a sniper scope and some explosives! For the early adopter types, though, there is some entertainment value here - that was clear to me in chatting with other players online.

My biggest complaint right now is that they don't have the persistence working. The servers are constantly shifting, players' experience isn't saved, and you don't even get credit for kills.

Strategy First/Cornered Rat certainly has their work cut out for them, and not just in terms of fixing up the servers. This game is unbelievably hostile to new players with its bad interface and lack of ingame feedback.

Something I've been trying, Bernie, is to take a Stuka over a contested area, buzz the region to pick up the name of some friendlies on the front line, and then dial them up on the radio. They should be able to help you with spotting, but it's a handful having to type and do low level flight. And even if you find hostile units, well, there's that frame rate issue.

Since Bernie and Bob have it, and since I know Erik picked this one up, we should hook up at some point. If anyone wants to set up a time to meet online, drop me an email.

-Tom

I just found out that my beta account is apparently still active (they need all the positive feedback possible I suppose?). I plan to hop in again tonight or tomorrow provided I have the time (I'm on a quickie review for CGM of something else). The downloads are all done, so it's just a matter of setup.

Once again, I have to say to you folks, Tanks. They are the best implementation in the game so far despite the "roll over" problem. Be careful when near things that can flip you. Take your time and don't go too fast over large dips, etc. But I guarantee that when the shells are plinking off your armor and you're fighting back with all you've got and surviving, you'll have a whale of a time. Cooking up an enemy Panzer with a Char at long range is just icing on that cake. It's also fun to play as infantry and spot for the tankers.

God am I glad I'm not reviewing this.

--Dave

"Since Bernie and Bob have it, and since I know Erik picked this one up"

After applying the latest patch, ww2:o has started crashing back to the desktop while loading. So at the moment, I can't play at all. Chet, on the other hand, likes it. And he hates everything.

Without the metagame or any kind of persistence of the spirit of the player statistics, it's a lot like a buggier version of Tribes 2 crossed with Concentration, only instead of memorizing where the duck picture is, you have to constantly remember which one of ten gears your fucking tank is currently in.

"which one of ten gears your fucking tank is currently in"

Haha! Either that, or as infantry, call it a bus riding sim.

Yeah, I gave up on tanks in OFFLINE mode cause it was a pain dealing with that. I also felt really stupid when I couldn't get my tank out of a shallow dip in the road. Tom's right about trying to communicate when flying (or during any kind of activity, air or land, for that matter). Kind of surprising the manual doesn't talk about using microphones, but that would open up a whole new can of worms. Generally, people seem to communicate on the origin channel, so everyone spawning from the same city sort of becomes a de facto team.

Dave said: "It's also fun to play as infantry and spot for the tankers."

Yes, I was doing this the other night near a city called Carignan(sp?). My Brit pals were all cruising in from Mouzon, and the road between was hotly contested. Well, I managed to sneak in as a rifleman, and the tankers waiting on the Mouzon side of the hill between the cities were listening to my reports of Panzers heading their way. But then the sound effects broke (I found this to happen intermittently through the session) and I didn't hear the German tank that came over to crush me.

In general, I'm very surprised by the level of impromptu cooperation that develops between infantry and vehicles. The giving of rides and calls to rally folks when a city is ready for takeover is really a testament to the quality of the players at this point. I think that if WWII Online had commanders like that Microsoft space war game, and made it a bit easier to communicate on channels, coordination could be a critical part of the game.

Must also echo some other comments here - load times on my system are about five or six minutes. That's an inconvenience for sure. The lack of persistence is noted also, especially since it sounds halfway interesting in the manual. Though to be certain, I've done more dying than killing in this game :)

I'm all for a Qt3 gathering. We can go and make fools of ourselves, and probably give Tom and Erik volumes for columns.

I would love to hook up. I'm "sluglord" on WWII Online. Dunno about time, though, with a house full of family and inlaws this weekend.

One thing that kills me with the tanks is the difficulty in doing everything myself--I'd love to try a co-op tank drive/shoot thing one day.

And I still want machine guns. And credit for my freakin' kills! I finally killed a German and poof! No medal! :-)

The current gear you're in by the way is shown by the tilde (~) key.

Hey Bernie.. sorry forgot to email you, will do so soon :) Glad to see you're still around.

As far as voice comm, a lot of folks use Roger Wilco over a designated set of IPs for communication purposes -- works real well from everything I've heard. Sorry I don't have the IPs handy.

--- Alan

I agree with, once in a while you get in a good tank fight and both sides are supported, it is fun. But you have to get close. I have all the settings jacked to high and I still think Atari 2600 combat had better looking tanks.

Biggest problems.
When you die it is not easy to get back into the same scenario.
When your tank is damaged you might as well restart, no way to repair it.
No feedback on fighting - screw realism, give me some feedback.
If you don't have the cd in, it doesn't tell you but reboots you to the desktop when you choose your scenario.
Why do i need the joystick to push the up arrow up?

There is something interesting beneath it all (once a persistant world exists) but right now it is so far from polished - it isn't even cut out of the rock they found it in.

Chet

Darn! Just as Qt3 starts to put together Chick's Roughnecks for WW2OL I am going away on vacation. Hopefully people will continue playing through the summer so I can join up. My tag is Luckboy, and I've always played Germans (seems like the underdog so far to me).

How long before Wumpus and Tom play out "Enemy at the Gates" in the streets of Anhee?

-Rob

If I can get the game to run smoothly on my machine, I might try and find some of you on there. I've played a total of 5 minutes, because each time I start going, the game slows to an unplayable crawl, and I'm forced to reboot.